Wow. I can tell by the latest post that my post haven't been read. I'm not cheating in casinos nor do I plan to. Read what I've written. Its just friends for the practice. Secondly, I'm not getting paid to do the demo. Its as a favor to the same school I attend. Let's calm down here guys...
Card cheat coding systems needed...
- Thread starter ZER0
- Start date
So they will know what to look for? That post was about as useful as a dealer that lets the patrons deal the cards.
If the guy is telling the truth, then the thousands he has spent already will have something if not tons of information on signalling. If he hasn't spent thousands then i dont know why someone would be honest about why they want cheating information, and dishonest about books. Doesn't seem that genuine.
Just want to point out that the original post sounded shady and that's all there is to it. Zero has since corrected that misunderstanding and whether people believe him or not is up to them. Jason asked if he was aiming to educate or entertain, he said nothing about thieving.
My personal advice for looking into coding systems is Bring Down the House, the book about the MIT students who went to Vegas and cheated at Blackjack. It's not comprehensive, but it's mainstream enough (Turned into the movie 21) that people will relate to it. Also, I do hope you'll preface all of this with the honesty to say that you're not a card cheat and thus are not an authority, just a magician with an interest in card cheating.
You are right the first post did seem a bit sketchy and yes Zero did explain himself in a professional manner, and as you said it is up to the readers of this post to decide for themselves it just seemed like everyone was jumping to conclusions. In the movie 21 they are basically card counting if I'm not mistaken.
Jason was asking what the goal of his "demonstration" is and by no means "accusing him of being a thief".
To be honest I agree with his post, as there isn't much for a casino to learn from somebody who posts on magic boards asking for "cheat coding systems".
I'm a bit skeptical of the whole casino demonstration anyways. Are you being paid for what you are going to do?
If a casino really yearned for protection knowledge I think they'd be looking for somebody a bit more professional than your every day magician. "A little knowledge is dangerous".
Zero,
I never mentioned the cheating or theft angle because frankly I don't care what you do with the information. If you want to cheat, that's your choice. It's not one that I recommend, but again it's your choice.
I was simply asking whether your goals were to educate the poker dealers on actual cheating techniques that they should be concerned about in the future or if you're going to do a magic show for them with a gambling theme. Again, there is nothing wrong with either choice, but you need to know which you're doing and why.
If you're just there to show them some moves and let their eyes pop at seconds, bottoms, false shuffles and switches, that's fine. That's entertainment and although it's not terribly useful to a modern casino dealer, I see nothing wrong with it. In fact, I've done it myself and I enjoy those types of informal shows. But if they're expecting useful information, then you're way behind the power curve and I'd suggest that you pass on the demo.
The reason I couldn't tell which you were doing is that signaling methods (which your original post asked about) aren't terribly interesting or entertaining and I don't think they belong in a "magic-show with a gambling theme" presentation. The mere fact that you asked about them led me to believe that you were trying to actually impart important information to this class. As I stated earlier, I don't think you have the knowledge required to be useful to actual casino dealers (or future casino dealers). Don't feel bad, few people do have that knowledge. The industry has changed considerably in the last decade or so.
The big clue for me that you don't know what you're doing is that you asked for signals. Here's the reality of the situation: while there are some old chestnut-type signals (position of cigarettes in the mouth, position of fingers on the ends of the cards, etc), the majority of cheaters use their own home-grown signals with whatever is on the table at the time. Chips, hand positions, ways of holding the cards, and dozens of other methods are all in use. Hidden electronics and modern cell phone technology also changed the landscape to the point that many of the old methods are functionally obsolete these days. At the end of the day, explaining the concept of signaling and the types of information that are most commonly signaled is much more important than specific techniques. That of course assumes that you want to go down that path. As I said earlier, I find that stuff inappropriate for a "fun" demo and more in line with what you would discuss in a more serious game protection demonstration.
Jason
Wooden Foot - Do you also level your insults at Bill Simon, Martin Nash, Dai Vernon, Charlie Miller, Johnny Thompson, Darwin Ortiz, Ed Marlo, Jack Carpenter, Wesley James, Allan Ackerman, Jim Swain, Larry Jennings, Roy Walton and John Carney? I ask, because they've all taught moves that are similar or identical to the moves I teach. Are we all teaching people how to cheat at cards?
I never mentioned the cheating or theft angle because frankly I don't care what you do with the information. If you want to cheat, that's your choice. It's not one that I recommend, but again it's your choice.
I was simply asking whether your goals were to educate the poker dealers on actual cheating techniques that they should be concerned about in the future or if you're going to do a magic show for them with a gambling theme. Again, there is nothing wrong with either choice, but you need to know which you're doing and why.
If you're just there to show them some moves and let their eyes pop at seconds, bottoms, false shuffles and switches, that's fine. That's entertainment and although it's not terribly useful to a modern casino dealer, I see nothing wrong with it. In fact, I've done it myself and I enjoy those types of informal shows. But if they're expecting useful information, then you're way behind the power curve and I'd suggest that you pass on the demo.
The reason I couldn't tell which you were doing is that signaling methods (which your original post asked about) aren't terribly interesting or entertaining and I don't think they belong in a "magic-show with a gambling theme" presentation. The mere fact that you asked about them led me to believe that you were trying to actually impart important information to this class. As I stated earlier, I don't think you have the knowledge required to be useful to actual casino dealers (or future casino dealers). Don't feel bad, few people do have that knowledge. The industry has changed considerably in the last decade or so.
The big clue for me that you don't know what you're doing is that you asked for signals. Here's the reality of the situation: while there are some old chestnut-type signals (position of cigarettes in the mouth, position of fingers on the ends of the cards, etc), the majority of cheaters use their own home-grown signals with whatever is on the table at the time. Chips, hand positions, ways of holding the cards, and dozens of other methods are all in use. Hidden electronics and modern cell phone technology also changed the landscape to the point that many of the old methods are functionally obsolete these days. At the end of the day, explaining the concept of signaling and the types of information that are most commonly signaled is much more important than specific techniques. That of course assumes that you want to go down that path. As I said earlier, I find that stuff inappropriate for a "fun" demo and more in line with what you would discuss in a more serious game protection demonstration.
Jason
Wooden Foot - Do you also level your insults at Bill Simon, Martin Nash, Dai Vernon, Charlie Miller, Johnny Thompson, Darwin Ortiz, Ed Marlo, Jack Carpenter, Wesley James, Allan Ackerman, Jim Swain, Larry Jennings, Roy Walton and John Carney? I ask, because they've all taught moves that are similar or identical to the moves I teach. Are we all teaching people how to cheat at cards?
Jason I wasn't insulting anyone I just felt that this guy was being hammered for asking a simple question. I have seen guys get hammered worse for less on this forum but its no biggy. I honestly don't think it is in Zero's interest to cheat because anyone with any sense knows that cheaters never win.
Ignoring the possibility that someone would use what we do in a criminal manner I must look at the other side of the argument here -- EXPOSURE
If one is showing an audience what to look for does this mean you are tipping methods?
Now I knew/know several top rated card guys like Martin Nash, Ackerman, etc. and I know that their performances don't expose anything; they entertain guests by demonstrating SUPPOSED cheating methods. As has been pointed out, there is a vast difference between magic tricks & related skills vs. what pro gamblers do. Too, you will find that very, very, very few pro gamblers that use cheats, stoop to having a partner (there is no quicker way of getting caught) e.g. why would one need to learn any kind of "code" . . . especially when electronics in today's world are so much easier and more likely to be used . . . thumpers were originally used as a gambler's cue, for instance.
As I said previously, I can't help but wonder why someone that's been involved with magic, especially in our current era, don't already know at least a half-dozen ways to code cards; Corinda alone has close to that many cue techniques listed and I'm certain Mr. Scarne's made note of one or two.
If I were to do this kind of thing for public amusement I'd deliberately shoot for the goofy and outrageous; conceal something bulky and not overly clever let alone "high tech".
I remember having lunch one friday afternoon at the Magic Castle. I was sitting in the main area of the dinning room when I heard a whispering voice, "Look over at my table and just whisper the name of the card you see the lady look at"
I was kind of taken aback but I did as I was asked to do and sure enough, the gent who had whispered the instructions to me won all sorts of kudos.
Everything that happened was on the fly, no pre-arrangements whatsoever -- I barely knew the gent involved and we certainly never socialized together.
Anyone that's familiar with that particular part of the Castle will recall the amazing collection of stained glass Milton has installed. . . especially that amazing sky-light. . . but that's as far as I dare go when it comes to exposing how we did it. However, I will point out that this is something that can be done in the rotunda of the Nation's Capitol and for that matter, many State Capitol buildings as well as art Deco styled Rail Stations such as you would find in Cincinnati, Ohio . . . the person doing the card trick could be an easy 200 or more feet from you and with just a whisper, you can tell them what they need to know.
The Moral of the Story is . . . professionals will use what's available to them, including clever ways by which to instant stooge an innocent by-stander.
If one is showing an audience what to look for does this mean you are tipping methods?
Now I knew/know several top rated card guys like Martin Nash, Ackerman, etc. and I know that their performances don't expose anything; they entertain guests by demonstrating SUPPOSED cheating methods. As has been pointed out, there is a vast difference between magic tricks & related skills vs. what pro gamblers do. Too, you will find that very, very, very few pro gamblers that use cheats, stoop to having a partner (there is no quicker way of getting caught) e.g. why would one need to learn any kind of "code" . . . especially when electronics in today's world are so much easier and more likely to be used . . . thumpers were originally used as a gambler's cue, for instance.
As I said previously, I can't help but wonder why someone that's been involved with magic, especially in our current era, don't already know at least a half-dozen ways to code cards; Corinda alone has close to that many cue techniques listed and I'm certain Mr. Scarne's made note of one or two.
If I were to do this kind of thing for public amusement I'd deliberately shoot for the goofy and outrageous; conceal something bulky and not overly clever let alone "high tech".
I remember having lunch one friday afternoon at the Magic Castle. I was sitting in the main area of the dinning room when I heard a whispering voice, "Look over at my table and just whisper the name of the card you see the lady look at"
I was kind of taken aback but I did as I was asked to do and sure enough, the gent who had whispered the instructions to me won all sorts of kudos.
Everything that happened was on the fly, no pre-arrangements whatsoever -- I barely knew the gent involved and we certainly never socialized together.
Anyone that's familiar with that particular part of the Castle will recall the amazing collection of stained glass Milton has installed. . . especially that amazing sky-light. . . but that's as far as I dare go when it comes to exposing how we did it. However, I will point out that this is something that can be done in the rotunda of the Nation's Capitol and for that matter, many State Capitol buildings as well as art Deco styled Rail Stations such as you would find in Cincinnati, Ohio . . . the person doing the card trick could be an easy 200 or more feet from you and with just a whisper, you can tell them what they need to know.
The Moral of the Story is . . . professionals will use what's available to them, including clever ways by which to instant stooge an innocent by-stander.
Craig,
You're wrong. The vast majority of today's serious cheaters work in teams. "Single-O" cheaters are the exception. I'm not sure why you think otherwise, but you're incorrect.
Jason
I completely agree with you Jason, over the past 15yr. i have met and know some serious card cheats and not one
of them will sit at a table alone
You guys must be attracting a different breed, most of the hustlers I know have been betrayed by once trusted partners and thus, refuse to have such. Those that work with a partner are typically using some kind of electronic signaling device or might be using a combination of techniques that include non-verbal "codes"
Cards & Gambling aren't my thing, I know very few people in this arena but I've known a lot of folks who do/did flim-flam work (even related to a few) which is where most of my feedback comes from -- old timers! I only know two Pit Boss types and never spent any time with discussing such silliness with either; to me Gambling of any sort is little other than a fools venture. . . the irony is I'm neither Scottish nor Jewish or even a Republican and I see things that way. . .
Cards & Gambling aren't my thing, I know very few people in this arena but I've known a lot of folks who do/did flim-flam work (even related to a few) which is where most of my feedback comes from -- old timers! I only know two Pit Boss types and never spent any time with discussing such silliness with either; to me Gambling of any sort is little other than a fools venture. . . the irony is I'm neither Scottish nor Jewish or even a Republican and I see things that way. . .
I'm not sure what you mean by old timers now. Erdnase says "It is the general belief that it takes two to obtain any advantage in a card game with knowing players". For at least the last hundred years it has been common practice among cheaters to have an ali.
Craig,
Don't get me wrong - there are still some guys that go it alone. Gin rummy cheaters for instance, rarely have a partner since the game is most often played heads-up!
There are other types of cheaters that prefer to work without a partner: hold out men, paper players in short-handed games, and the occasional guy fooling around in his weekly "friendly" poker game may all work alone. But the vast majority of professional and serious cheaters employ partners to help spread out the heat. Even if only one of them is capable of moving, having one or more partners to take off the money helps tremendously.
Jason
Don't get me wrong - there are still some guys that go it alone. Gin rummy cheaters for instance, rarely have a partner since the game is most often played heads-up!
There are other types of cheaters that prefer to work without a partner: hold out men, paper players in short-handed games, and the occasional guy fooling around in his weekly "friendly" poker game may all work alone. But the vast majority of professional and serious cheaters employ partners to help spread out the heat. Even if only one of them is capable of moving, having one or more partners to take off the money helps tremendously.
Jason
As I said, this really isn't my field. The people I knew in a long ago time in life came by way of the Carney world . . . the sort that would would gladly sell their mother and convince you she was still a virgin in the process. I learned a ton from these guys when it came to flim-flams, pick-pocketing, etc. even though it was a relatively short chapter in my life. Then too, I've had more than a few heart to hearts with Martin Nash who gave me a lot of insights about pro gambling vs. magician's fantasies tied to the same; he was a wonderful man, one of the few I'd say such a thing of.
I can see the logic of having a partner but I also understand the headaches, fears & paranoia shared with me by those I mention. Let's face it "Networking" works in ALL fields.
I can see the logic of having a partner but I also understand the headaches, fears & paranoia shared with me by those I mention. Let's face it "Networking" works in ALL fields.
I'm suprised this thread has gone on so long. Thank you all for contributing.
Jason,
You have given great advice and information as always. I was so caught up in the idea of being asked to show some things to some students and to have motivation to expand my practice that I didn't stop to ask if I could actually offer any real help to the program. I didn't stop to realize that "friendly game" techniques differ drastically from casino techniques. If I move forward with the demo I will make sure it is fully realized that I can only offer entertainment value.
Mr. Browning,
Thank you for contributing. Your comment about the moral of the story being that PROFESSIONALS will use whatever is available to them...well you'll have to excuse my lack of professionalism as I am not a professional nor have I ever claimed to be. Thank you for pointing out the coding systems in "13 steps." I picked up the book about 5 years back and must have overlooked them due to the fact that I never used partners and therefor it really didn't apply to me at the time. I've been quite busy and I guess I never thought to look back over some of my old mentalism material. As for "the possiblity of someone using what we know in a criminal manner," you say you had a time in your life where you practiced pickpocketing. Practicing card cheating for no money what so ever amongst friends (to me at least) seems like much less of a possible crime. Thank you for your input and your professional point of view of the subject. It has been most appreciated.
I see now that I was asking the wrong question, in the wrong manner, on the wrong forum, with the wrong demographic. I shouldn't have taken such questions to this forum. Sorry for that.
Once again, thank you all for your contributions!
Jason,
You have given great advice and information as always. I was so caught up in the idea of being asked to show some things to some students and to have motivation to expand my practice that I didn't stop to ask if I could actually offer any real help to the program. I didn't stop to realize that "friendly game" techniques differ drastically from casino techniques. If I move forward with the demo I will make sure it is fully realized that I can only offer entertainment value.
Mr. Browning,
Thank you for contributing. Your comment about the moral of the story being that PROFESSIONALS will use whatever is available to them...well you'll have to excuse my lack of professionalism as I am not a professional nor have I ever claimed to be. Thank you for pointing out the coding systems in "13 steps." I picked up the book about 5 years back and must have overlooked them due to the fact that I never used partners and therefor it really didn't apply to me at the time. I've been quite busy and I guess I never thought to look back over some of my old mentalism material. As for "the possiblity of someone using what we know in a criminal manner," you say you had a time in your life where you practiced pickpocketing. Practicing card cheating for no money what so ever amongst friends (to me at least) seems like much less of a possible crime. Thank you for your input and your professional point of view of the subject. It has been most appreciated.
I see now that I was asking the wrong question, in the wrong manner, on the wrong forum, with the wrong demographic. I shouldn't have taken such questions to this forum. Sorry for that.
Once again, thank you all for your contributions!
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BTW. . . I was just looking through Annemann last night and stumbled onto several clever coding techniques towards the back of the book. I'd suggest you look at "The Eyes Have It" most of all.