Magic for Haiti - The "Voodoo" Magic plot

Mar 16, 2010
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A magical Island
This may seem like a little untimely, but after hearing about David's work using magic to help raise money for Haiti after the Earthquake, I thought it was a good time to bring up some of my thoughts around the "voodoo" plot in magic. I hope this is the appropriate place to do so. This is not a fly-by-night post. I have put a good deal of thought into this and taken the time to, hopefully, explain my position clearly. It is not a short post, but i hope you will take the time to read it and find it valuable in addressing what, i see, is one small issue hurting the art of magic.

If you go to any Magic retailer and search "Voodoo" it will return dozens of effects and still countless others are buried in books throughout the magic library. The plot has a long history in magic, i'm sure many of you have, or currently perform an effect that uses the plot in the presentation. Indeed there are many great effects constructed and marketed around this plot.

When we hear the term "Voodoo" it evokes images of sorcery, sticking pins into dolls, zombies, black magic, witchcraft, juju, mojos, greegrees, love potions, etc.

Why do we have these images in our heads? Where do they come from? Do they have any basis in reality? What is "Voodoo" anyway?

We, as magicians, have been exploiting these images and perceptions already in our spectator's minds. While we give great consideration and time to other aspects of our presentation it seems we have given little thought to this plot. We, as magicians (like the spectators we are preforming for) generally know little or nothing about the history and practice of Vodou. Instead we play on the cliches and erroneous conceptions of Vodou to present our effects. These same misconceptions which have been regurgitated for decades and have there roots in Racism, Colonialism, Religious Bigotry, and Fear. If you read almost any description of a "voodoo" effect i think you will find this to be true. I don't want to single anyone out hear, let me be clear....this is not about accusing anyone or casting blame. I think most of us are guilty and most likely unaware of this. This is about moving past this inaccurate and antiquated plot in the art of magic.

About the term "Voodoo"
Offense is taken when "voodoo" is used to describe the African-derived religious practices and beliefs. Many feel Voodoo is a derogatory word derived from the time of U.S. occupation of Haiti from 1915 to 1934. Practitioners most often use the Creole spellings "Vodou" (also spelled Vodoun, Vodun, or Vodu) to distinguish the religion from the popular misconceptions of "voodoo" spells and black magic.

I believe it is very important to let people speak for themselves, and as am not a practitioner of Vodou i want to add this quote..

"As a Vodou priestess who knows many Haitians, I will tell you that using the term Voodoo is quite offensive to many, especially when used in the way that Western society uses it, to mock and denigrate not only a religion, but an entire cultural lifestyle which it does not even bother to understand. The "Christian" majority of the United States will loudly defend their right to worship a resurrected cosmic Jewish zombie (in the Hollywood sense of the word), eat his flesh and blood on special occasions... but will protest that anyone who doesn't believe in the zombie is going to be roasted alive and tortured by a horned red-faced goat demon for all eternity. Yet they like to mock the religions of others and do not care how insensitive they are towards them..."
- Anonymous Vodou Priestess

From here on i will use the term Vodou

A little history
Vodou, which means "sacred" or "spirit" in Haitian Creole, is used to identify the divinity of nature that is staple to the Vodou tradition. The Ewe tribes use the term to describe not only nature, but the totality of existence and harmony within the juxtaposition of the worlds of the living and the spirit realm. It was brought by slaves to the Caribbean islands in the 17th and 18th centuries. This New World religion combines elements of West African faiths, Roman Catholicism, and Freemasonry. When slaves were first brought from Africa to America, Vodou was immediately outlawed by the largely Christian slave owners and demonized as a savage religion. Immediately, the religion became one of the key ways for slaves to resist the oppression of their slave owners, and it gave them a very personal connection with their African homeland.

Vodou is one of the official religions of Haiti, and its designation in 2003 merely granted official acknowledgment to a longstanding reality. The slave revolt that brought Haiti independence indeed relied on Vodou, the New World version of ancestral African faiths. To this day, by various scholarly estimates, 50 percent to 95 percent of Haitians practice at least elements of voodoo, often in conjunction with Catholicism. Most Haitians accept Vodou as a religious practice and a living tradition, while most Americans have grown up with a very distorted sense of it. American fear of Vodou dates back to the anxiety felt in the United States in 1804, when Haiti became the first free black republic.

-Donald J. Cosentino, curator of Sacred Arts of Haitian Vodou
"Haiti was the only successful slave rebellion and developed its own culture, so from the early 19th century Haiti scared the **** out of American slave owners," Cosentino says. "The demonization of Vodou began at that time, and it was later exacerbated by a U.S. [military] occupation of Haiti that began in 1915 and didn't end until 1934. So one way to justify the occupation was to think that the black folks in Haiti were like malevolent children."

Hence the Hollywood movies, (White Zombie-1932, I Walked with a Zombie-1943 among many others) which influenced American kids who grew up to assume leadership positions in government, business, and the arts. Although there has been serious American scholarship on Vodou for decades, Cosentino says most Americans have never shaken their simplistic notions about Vodou.

-Hunter-Hindrew, considered a holy leader in the religion
"This is perhaps one of the biggest myths regarding the esoteric understanding of African Traditional Religions in general," she says. "and the Vodoun religion in particular. There is no use of magic in Vodoun as it is understood and practiced in the West. However, there are aspects of phenomena, or what some would regard as "miracles" that are made manifest by the Vodou spirits themselves. But, these manifestations in no way involve the use of "magic" or "trickery" as Hollywood has often misrepresented it."

I think that last line says a lot as it relates to us and the ideas i am presenting here.

Why does it matter?
I think this lays at the heart of respecting our art, respecting ourselves, and respecting our spectators, not to mention respecting Africa, Haiti, Vodou and it's practitioners. If we continue to feed these misconceptions in our society, by presenting Vodou as something dark, mysterious, sinister, strange, magical, and altogether inaccurate, we continue the repeat this mistakes of the past. We as magicians should be the first to understand how easy it is to be misled and how easily false impressions are made in people's minds. People make choices based on those misconceptions. This is a very real issue that effects real people's lives today. There are reports every day of Vodou practitioners being attacked, denied food and aid, they continue to be demonized, misrepresented and feared by people who do not understand the first thing about the practice of Vodou or those that practice it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-derrick/evangelicals-throw-rocks_b_476149.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/20/world/americas/20religion.html

•continued in next post...
 
Mar 16, 2010
23
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A magical Island
Magic for Haiti - The "Voodoo" magic plot PART 2

...continued from previous post (10000 character limit)

What to do about it?
I wouldn't want offer a critique without also offering some solutions.
There are several ways i can think of to address this issue, I'm sure you will also think of many more

(1) Alternative presentations and patter for the "Voodoo" plot. These suggestions mainly apply to effects where altering one thing effects another

- Interconnectedness of all things / energy
You could approach this from either a traditional or new age angle if that's your style.

- Identical twins / Human bonds
I think you will find this idea already familiar to most of your spectators. You can also find writings and research relating to this fairly easily

- Quantum Entanglement or "quantum non-local connection" (My personal favorite and what i use)
If you are not a Science and Physics geek like me , A little investigation will provide you with more then enough ideas to craft a presentation and patter, Plus you get to use real modern science to enhance your effect and intrigue your spectators.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_Entanglement

(2) Take the time to educate yourself about Vodou and use the effect / presentation to educate your spectators on the topic

I can assure you that any time you spend learning about Vodou, The Caribbean, or Haiti's history will be time well spent. There are numerous books and documentaries on the topic and most are easily obtained. I would also encourage you to seek out a Vodou Priest or Priestess to talk with if you happen to have a Haitian community near you.

There is a radio program "Speaking of Faith" that recently did a wonderful show on the topic of Vodou. You can listen online:
http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/vodou/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_Vodou
http://www.citypaper.com/arts/story.asp?id=4026
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/12-3-2005-83012.asp

(3) Drop the Vodou plot from your performing repertoire and replace it with another effect

(4) If you are magic retailer... Would you sell an effect that falsely denigrates Christianity, Judaism, or Islam? If not, why is it okay, and goes unnoticed, if it is an Afro-Caribbean religion? I would ask that you phase out your inventory of these effects and in the interim offer alternative patter and presentation ideas.

I hope that those of you here, and in the magic community in general, will seriously consider and think about what i have said as we move our art forward to a more just and respectful future. Thank you for taking the time to read this and I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the subject.

popup_image.php

Photo Credit - Phyllis Galembo
Rose Anne and Andre Rose Mercilien, with drapo (ritual flags), Haiti, 1994


Love, Respect, Astonishment,
J1P
 
Nov 7, 2009
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So your saying th whole magic community should drop all there voodo effects because it insults some african dude...

Sorry but id be suprised if you get 5 people to join you.
 
Mar 16, 2010
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A magical Island
So your saying th whole magic community should drop all there voodo effects because it insults some african dude...

Sorry but id be suprised if you get 5 people to join you.

Hello Alfie,

I'm not saying that you should drop the effect entirely, i gave a few different examples of approaches to rethinking this issue in my post. You could keep the effect and change the presentation, or keep the effect but present it in the context of real factual information about Vodou.

This is not about "some African dude" taking offense. (Primarily we are talking about Haiti here) It is about presenting false information and denigrating a religion and culture of which we know little about. It is equivalent to presenting an effect about Alaska and saying people in Alaska live in Igloos (only this is less damaging)... it's nonsense. By continuing to do these "voodoo" effects (in the way that we are doing them) we are playing into the demonization of Black and African people and culture. This has real consequences for real people today. As an example I have read many reports recently of Aid workers and missionaries denying food and medical aid to Haitians unless they give up Vodou. This is morally and ethically unacceptable and stems from this nonsense and misinformation about Vodou.

"Sorry but id be suprised if you get 5 people to join you"
This line saddens me the most. Are you suggesting that magicians are somehow incapable of rethinking how they look at something or incapable of respecting and understanding people different from themselves? I don't believe this to be true. I believe we can rethink this and move our art forward and have our art be respectful of all people on this planet.

-J1P
 
I'll be honest: I didn't read much after you referred to Jesus Christ as a zombie. I don't do any of my magic under the premise of voodoo at all, and I don't believe in insulting anyones belief system to the point you just did. I wouldn't want to do something to insult someones deeply held beliefs, whether it be in the name of entertainment or in representation of my own beliefs.

To your one point though, magic retailers sell quite a number of books/effects that falsely denigrate Christianity.

To answer what you said about educating yourself on your topic, Christians do not believe they are eating the actual flesh of Jesus Christ; you're thinking of Catholics, and yes, there's a difference.

Since I know how these threads usually go, I'm probably not going to be coming back to this one. If you want to make a valid response to this, send a pm.
 
Nov 7, 2009
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I understand what you are trying to do but magic all together is considered black magic to Africans which would mean we would have to change all our magic which would change magic forever... I see what your ring to get people to do but due to the amount of magicians out there that are doing fine right now it just wouldnt happen... sorry.
 
Mar 16, 2010
23
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A magical Island
I'll be honest: I didn't read much after you referred to Jesus Christ as a zombie. I don't do any of my magic under the premise of voodoo at all, and I don't believe in insulting anyones belief system to the point you just did. I wouldn't want to do something to insult someones deeply held beliefs, whether it be in the name of entertainment or in representation of my own beliefs.

To your one point though, magic retailers sell quite a number of books/effects that falsely denigrate Christianity.

To answer what you said about educating yourself on your topic, Christians do not believe they are eating the actual flesh of Jesus Christ; you're thinking of Catholics, and yes, there's a difference.

Since I know how these threads usually go, I'm probably not going to be coming back to this one. If you want to make a valid response to this, send a pm.

Hey Rob, Thank you for your thoughts. I will PM you as well as responding here.

I believe your response is in regards to the quote in my post from the Vodou Priestess. These are not my words and not my opinions. I feel it is very important to allow people to speak for themselves and since i am not a Vodou practitioner i wanted to include some thoughts from someone who is.

That being said I think her statement is being dramatic just to illustrate the way that Hollywood and American pop culture have viewed Vodou over the years and referring to the Hollywood zombie movies about Vodou made in the 30s and 40s. She is presenting this distorted view of Christianity to highlight how distorted the view of Vodou is from her perspective. At least that's how i interpreted it and why i included it. I hope this helps.

with care,
J1P
 
Aug 17, 2008
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Ann Arbor, MI
Well first off, if these are not your thoughts or opinions, as said in your previous post, why bring it up? I just think uts pointless. Anyway, I agree with alfie, all magic is considered Black Magic. The whole fact of being able to destort reality, no matter what type of effects you perform. You can do a simple DL show the 3 of hearts and put it in the middle of the deck, and make it appear back on top.. You must have "powers". You can't actually place the 3 of hearts in the deck and make it rise. So "voodoo" if it actually "discriminates" or whatever africans, like said before... We would have to change all magic. And I don't know about you guys, but I don't want that to happen. Sorry, but JB, I would close this thread...

Just my two cents.

-blake.
 
Mar 16, 2010
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A magical Island
Hey Blake, Thank you for adding your two cents :)

Well first off, if these are not your thoughts or opinions, as said in your previous post, why bring it up?

I think this is clear, but i will sum it up again. In the post there is a QUOTE from a Vodou Priestess where SHE refers to Jesus Christ as a zombie. (in the Hollywood sense of the word) RobAnderson read this and said that i called Jesus a zombie. I responded to this but saying that that QUOTE was from someone else, Those were not my thoughts and opinions about Jesus. Those are HER words and she is making a point. The rest of the post is indeed MY thoughts and opinions . I hope that's clear.

Anyway, I agree with alfie, all magic is considered Black Magic. The whole fact of being able to destort reality, no matter what type of effects you perform. You can do a simple DL show the 3 of hearts and put it in the middle of the deck, and make it appear back on top.. You must have "powers". You can't actually place the 3 of hearts in the deck and make it rise.

Here i think we may disagree. I have been preforming magic for over 15 years and i have NEVER had any adult believe i had any type of "Powers" or "black magic" I do not present my effects that way and do not want my spectators to think that i do. Maybe if preforming for Children or Young Adults this can be an issue in which case it should be made very clear that it is just a trick. There IS a way to "make it rise"... SLIGHT-OF-HAND ...most people in the world are aware of this. If you do present your effects in way that makes people believe that you have "powers" i think that is another moral and ethics conversation. Having said that i don't think this has anything to do with my post about "voodoo" magic effects.

So "voodoo" if it actually "discriminates" or whatever africans, like said before... We would have to change all magic. And I don't know about you guys, but I don't want that to happen.

Again, I completely disagree. No, we don't have to change all magic. We don't have to change 99.99% of magic effects. Indeed it is not about the effects, it is a concern with how we present some effects, Those effects that are marketed and preformed under a false impression of Vodou.

I hope this clears some things up,
again thanks for the comments Blake,

cheers,
J1P
 
Apr 5, 2009
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Illinois
yeah, i dont like this thread either. i can see it ending up in rough territory. but i think before we do any sort or presentation, if this is possible, should research our material.
 
Jul 13, 2009
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Hi I have a little time now

The Voodoo magic plot essay and why it is wrong.
Causal Essay by Silver​

The author of this essay is by no means an expert magic historian, however he is a magician of eight years that has been educated and fascinated in the dark rituals, dark arts, the macabre and the all around strange. In the essay Magic for Haiti - The "Voodoo" Magic plot Just1pin typed out a lengthy post about why voodoo magic is miss labeled and why it should not be used in magic using a very weak argument that it is disrespectful and or offensive to African American people or practitioners of voodoo. “We, as magicians…generally know little or nothing about the history and practice of Vodou.” Just1pin generalized, “Instead we play on the cliches and erroneous conceptions of Vodou“(1). Cliché is what magic is. Magic has roots in witchcraft, voodoo, spiritualism, and other metaphysical practices and these clichés are still used in modern time with great success. Why is it magicians do not see the Satanists, sadomasochists, anti-god, religious fanatics outside their homes with pitchforks and torches? The answer is simple, they do not care. Okay I am done. Hmm I have time lets expand further.

If people really cared that a magician was doing voodoo magic on television, like Criss Angel and David Blaine, then there would have been a lot more controversy probably even a news line or something in the media. Magicians are not anywhere near Marilyn Manson status with fans and followers. First most magicians are not as smart as he is, second we do not have fans that would follow us like they would follow him. My point is magicians do not have enough power over their audience to cause much controversy simply because we are magicians. Now if you dress up like the “Crow” and start doing human sacrifices onstage while preaching about satan, only then will you have problems.

In one of the paragraphs in the essay Just1 gives us some back-story about voodoo. The word voodoo is a mainstream word that is offensive to the “African derived religious practices and beliefs” . Voodoo is a derogatory word and has misconceptions attached to it; some are very negative (1). Then he quotes some anonymous no body who talks about the hypocritical practices of some Christian folk.

Now I can’t help thinking to myself, “Aren’t magicians inherently pushing dark magic anyway by claiming their abilities are derived from some higher understanding of reality? Aren’t stage illusionists performing the often dark sacrificing rituals onstage in front of people? Mutilating women, animals, even creating living life without natural means. That is dark right? Then in order to stop the misconceptions about dark magic, voodoo included, the magic community would have to stop being well magic. Seriously watch this performance objectively. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8gMKiCs1io

Okay pretty cool right? Well it becomes cooler when I tell you what this harmless looking illusion is about. First we have a lady who enters into a ceremonious looking basket. Next she is twisted and is forced to contort into a small basket. Next the wizard shoves swords through the basket effectively killing the person inside. Next these swords are removed and the lady rises hauntingly out of the basket, un-contorting and healing like some sort of strange metamorphosis under the cloth. The wizard wisks away the cloth to reveal the lady has indeed risen from the dead, and has returned a new person (As indicated by the costume change.) In summary it is the time old cliche of dying and being reborn. Kind of makes sense now since the illusion has Indian roots, you know the area that believes in reincarnation?

My entire point of writing this was not only to get me into the mood to write a paper that is due on Wednesday. But to explain why it is a fruitless effort to try and take out voodoo esq. plot lines out of magic. Magic was founded on the dark or rather misunderstood pagan rituals like voodoo, Satanism, etc. However though Just1’s ideas are fruitless, it is a very thoughtful essay.
 
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Mar 16, 2010
23
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A magical Island
Hey Silver, Thank you for bringing your thoughts and ideas to the table. I hope it was good practice for your paper :)

voodoo magic is miss labeled and why it should not be used in magic using a very weak argument that it is disrespectful and or offensive to African American people or practitioners of voodoo.

I really don't understand where you guys are getting this "African dude" and "African American people" stuff? This is a discussion of Haiti and Haitian Vodou. Haiti is in the Caribbean. Granted there are small groups in the US (mostly in New Orleans) that also practice a form of Vodou, but these would be "Caribbean-Americans" i suppose, if you're into the whole hyphen thing... I guess that makes us "European-Americans"? I'm not into the hyphen thing.

“We, as magicians…generally know little or nothing about the history and practice of Vodou.” Just1pin generalized, “Instead we play on the cliches and erroneous conceptions of Vodou“(1). Cliché is what magic is.

Yes, I generalized. That's why i said "generally" to denote a generalization ;). I don't think generalization is inherently bad. I believe those statements to be true and it doesn't really sounds like you disagree with them. I didn't ad a lot of specific examples because i didn't want the post to be 10 pages long. If you don't think these statements are generally accurate i would be happy to quote specific performances, effect descriptions, and patter. Then we can compare those to factual information on Vodou and see if they match up. Yesterday on another forum a magician responded to this post with this statement....
I was completely unaware that vodou was a religion practiced seriously (But then, the extent of my knowledge on the whole subject is the episode of Scooby Doo and the Witch Doctor, and, of course, "voodoo" dolls).

Magic has roots in witchcraft, voodoo, spiritualism, and other metaphysical practices and these clichés are still used in modern time with great success. Why is it magicians do not see the Satanists, sadomasochists, anti-god, religious fanatics outside their homes with pitchforks and torches?

I don't really agree with this. I think it would be more accuate to say that modern magic has it's roots in Cheating, Gambling and Con men (certainly if we are referring to Card magic) I think this is part of my point, i would say maybe you are correct, if that's what people think the history of magic is, but it doesn't mean it's true. Witchcraft and Vodou don't really have anything to do with Magic. Spiritualist did use magic trick methods to con people out of money in the first half of the 20th century, and this is what Houdini spend the second half of his career exposing. Magic has a long history of being viewed strictly as entertainment, be it "low-brow" in the fairs of Medieval Europe or high-brow in the Guest Parlors of 19th century France.

Pitchforks? Torches?
Yes! Absolutely! this has happened. In the 1500s witch hunts were sweeping continental Europe and Scotland, and would soon engulf England following the coronation of the fanatical King James I (think King James version of the Bible, and "V for Vendetta" fans may note this is the King that Guy Fawkes was trying to assassinate with the Gun Powder Plot on the 5th of November 1605) These persecutions of "witchcraft" defiantly included Jugglers and Magicians, they were tried by the Church and then executed by very brutal means. This led to the publication of The "Discoverie of Witchcraft" by Reginald Scot in 1584. Most consider this the first book published on magic methods. Scot wanted to prove to the Church that these people where not "witches" but only entertainers and should not be executed, unfortunately most of the first printings of the book were burned.

Now I can’t help thinking to myself, “Aren’t magicians inherently pushing dark magic anyway by claiming their abilities are derived from some higher understanding of reality?

No. Not at all. I think maybe this is how Teenage boys preform magic, but not most professional magicians. I have addressed this in a previous response so i wont go into detail here. This is the summery of Magic from wikipedia which i generally agree with...
Magic is a performing art that entertains an audience by creating illusions of seemingly impossible or supernatural feats, using purely natural means. These feats are called magic tricks, effects or illusions.

it is a fruitless effort to try and take out voodoo esq. plot lines out of magic. Magic was founded on the dark or rather misunderstood pagan rituals like voodoo, Satanism, etc. However though Just1’s ideas are fruitless, it is a very thoughtful essay.

I'm sorry you think it is fruitless. Is that really what you believe? That if someone feels something is wrong that it's hopeless to try and change it? I do not agree, I feel there are numerous examples in the past and in the present where people have taken the initiative to make a change and have done so successfully. It is in fact a major aspect in how i view the world.

Thanks for the compliment and i wish you the best of luck on your paper,
care,
J1P
 
Jul 13, 2009
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I really don't understand where you guys are getting this "African dude" and "African American people" stuff? This is a discussion of Haiti and Haitian Vodou. Haiti is in the Caribbean. Granted there are small groups in the US (mostly in New Orleans) that also practice a form of Vodou, but these would be "Caribbean-Americans" i suppose, if you're into the whole hyphen thing... I guess that makes us "European-Americans"? I'm not into the hyphen thing.

I was simply going off some history have on this forum, specifically one of the SNC roundtable discussions where you asked something along the lines of, How can the community make magic more accessible to colored people and women.
Furthermore you referred to the people as African and American earlier in your post so I just lumped them all together. Pardon me if that is offensive to you. *Sarcasm* Because I could care less.



Yes, I generalized. That's why i said "generally" to denote a generalization ;). I don't think generalization is inherently bad. I believe those statements to be true and it doesn't really sounds like you disagree with them. I didn't ad a lot of specific examples because i didn't want the post to be 10 pages long. If you don't think these statements are generally accurate i would be happy to quote specific performances, effect descriptions, and patter. Then we can compare those to factual information on Vodou and see if they match up. Yesterday on another forum a magician responded to this post with this statement....

Okay so is it fair to tell the entire magic community to stop doing voodoo magic? That was only one person, don't make the assumption that we are all misinformed.


I don't really agree with this. I think it would be more accuate to say that modern magic...i would say maybe you are correct, if that's what people think the history of magic is, but it doesn't mean it's true. Witchcraft and Vodou don't really have anything to do with Magic.

Then you follow it up with.

These persecutions of "witchcraft" defiantly included Jugglers and Magicians, they were tried by the Church and then executed by very brutal means. This led to the publication of The "Discoverie of Witchcraft" by Reginald Scot in 1584. Most consider this the first book published on magic methods.

And you are telling me magic has nothing to do with witchcraft and voodoo?


No. Not at all. I think maybe this is how Teenage boys preform magic, but not most professional magicians. I have addressed this in a previous response so i wont go into detail here.

Did you miss my example about illusionists? Most stage performers are professional magicians. Don't summarize wikipedia, it is the worst place to get information other then to gain possible leads with source material.

Anyway, teenage boys and professional magicians? Let me ask you something Just1, what separates teenage boys and girls you sexist: *sarcasm* from professional magicians? What is a professional magician to you?

I am by no means a professional magician, I am not getting paid, yet I probably know could be paid handsomely if I put myself out there. Answer those questions here and maybe we'll actually have a conversation on our hands.




I'm sorry you think it is fruitless. Is that really what you believe? That if someone feels something is wrong that it's hopeless to try and change it?

I already explained why it is hopeless to try and change magic. It has roots in metaphysical cultures dating back to the Egyptians. Furthermore, magic has survived through all of that time and stayed relatively the same. You or the current community of magicians are not going to change anything. Well unless someone gains time traveling abilities.
 
Mar 16, 2010
23
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A magical Island
Silver, this is great, more like a real disscussion :)

Okay so is it fair to tell the entire magic community to stop doing voodoo magic? That was only one person, don't make the assumption that we are all misinformed.

I'm not telling the Magic community to stop doing "voodoo" magic. I am asking the magic community to reconsider making inaccurate presentations of Vodou within the context of magic effects. Yes, i am making the assumption that the majority of American magicians are Ill-informed about the real practices and traditions of Vodou as a religion. Everything i have seen and read makes this pretty clear to me, if you think this is an unfair assessment i would be happy to review your evidence.

Maybe you noticed that the software Theory 11's forum runs on recognizes "Voodoo" in the spell check, but DOES NOT recognize "Voudu", "Vodu", or "Vodun"

Then you follow it up with.

These persecutions of "witchcraft" defiantly included Jugglers and Magicians, they were tried by the Church and then executed by very brutal means. This led to the publication of The "Discoverie of Witchcraft" by Reginald Scot in 1584. Most consider this the first book published on magic methods.

And you are telling me magic has nothing to do with witchcraft and voodoo?

Yes, but you are right in that i didn't fully explain this point. Given this false view of magic as "witchcraft" in the past, there has been a radical shift in how people view magic. I was making this point here using the Church of England. They went from executing magicians as "witches" to developing a whole branch of the magical arts know as "Gospel Magic" and endorsing magic. That is a radical shift over time of how Magic is seen by Christianity and by the public.

Anyway, teenage boys and professional magicians? Let me ask you something Just1, what separates teenage boys and girls you sexist: *sarcasm* from professional magicians? What is a professional magician to you?

You are right here in that i didn't really make a point here and i won't clarify because i think it is getting pretty off topic. A professional magician, to me, is someone who makes most of their living preforming magic.

I think some of this discussion has gotten a little away from the issue i wanted to raise in the first place so i will try and summarize it briefly here...

Haiti and the Religion of Vodou have been demonized in the past, these demonetization and clichés spawned a bunch of pop culture artifacts, including magician's using the ideas to create "spooky and bizarre" magic presentations. These magic effects are still with us today and present mostly false information about Vodou and present it in a way where it is view as strange, scary, and bizarre. Given the fact that Voudu continues to be misrepresented and it's practitioners persecuted, I feel it is time for us, as magician's, to rethink presenting "Voodoo" effects in the same way we have done in the past. I feel it is a moral and ethical decision. I was for me and i personally feel that taking a step like this could be more beneficial to Haiti, in the long run, then giving $10 or $20 dollars to the Red Cross (although that is very needed and i encourage anyone that is able to give.)

care,
J1P
 
Jul 13, 2009
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I'm not telling the Magic community to stop doing "voodoo" magic. I am asking the magic community to reconsider making inaccurate presentations of Vodou within the context of magic effects.

Fair enough.

Yes, i am making the assumption that the majority of American magicians are Ill-informed about the real practices and traditions of Vodou as a religion. Everything i have seen and read makes this pretty clear to me, if you think this is an unfair assessment i would be happy to review your evidence.

Okay so you have probably only read the mainstream crud that you can purchase on penguinmagic. Not saying Nathan Kronzo's Voodoo magic is crud but that is the first thing that comes to mind when I hear voodoo applied to magic. Truly I have no idea what vodou religious practices are, but that isn't going to stop me writing stories about voodoo dark magic. You want to know why? It doesn't affect the people who practice voodoo.
I don't need to submit any evidence about my opinion of the matter. I agree with the ill informedness of people.


Maybe you noticed that the software Theory 11's forum runs on recognizes "Voodoo" in the spell check, but DOES NOT recognize "Voudu", "Vodu", or "Vodun"

Yes I have, but did you know voodoo is an english word in an english dictionary? Coincidentally Vodu is how the dictionary tells you how to pronounce the word. I would like to know your sources of information. Where are you citing from? I am talking about your original double post.

Furthermore in the English dictionary (Merriam-Webster) it describes voodoo as someone who practices necromancy or spell casting. Now apply this to the voodoo effects that you know of and tell me they do not fit the description given with the word "Voodoo", in the dictionary.


I was making this point here using the Church of England. They went from executing magicians as "witches" to developing a whole branch of the magical arts know as "Gospel Magic" and endorsing magic. That is a radical shift over time of how Magic is seen by Christianity and by the public.

What? Something doesn't sit well with me. Gospel magic to the best of my understanding is a modern movement and had nothing to do with witchcraft trials. I may be wrong let me research that subject or you could give me information so that I can become as informed as you. Until then I don't believe that statement in the slightest.


A professional magician, to me, is someone who makes most of their living preforming magic.

No it has gone off topic yet I just wanted to get clarification. So my original statement was from my "Essay".

"Aren’t magicians inherently pushing dark magic anyway by claiming their abilities are derived from some higher understanding of reality?"

You replied,

"No. Not at all. I think maybe this is how Teenage boys preform magic, but not most professional magicians."

Alright my point is ask any of the teenage boys, as you put it, on here if they explain to there spectators that what they do is done completely by magic. I am certain you will not get anything like I "pushing [sic] dark magic...by claiming ...abilities...derived from some higher understanding of reality".

Yet using your definition of Professional magician, I can think several people who push the supernatural and magick like voodoo and witchcraft. Ever heard of the Inner Circle, Tony Andruzzi, Brother Shadows, Charles Cameron, Docc Hilford they are/were professional magicians who used voodoo or supernatural presentations to great affect. So to say that, "No. Not at all. I think maybe this is how Teenage boys preform magic, but not most professional magicians", isn't factual and shouldn't be said.


Haiti and the Religion of Vodou have been demonized in the past, these demonetization and clichés spawned a bunch of pop culture artifacts, including magician's using the ideas to create "spooky and bizarre" magic presentations.

To be fair, vodou practice are creepy and taboo to most foreigners. You may think that there is demonized cliches being pushed, when in fact they are not being pushed but replicated. Some vodou rituals are well, scary.


These magic effects are still with us today and present mostly false information about Vodou and present it in a way where it is view as strange, scary, and bizarre. Given the fact that Voudu continues to be misrepresented and it's practitioners persecuted, I feel it is time for us, as magician's, to rethink presenting "Voodoo" effects in the same way we have done in the past.

You know something else that I forgot to take into consideration? Most of the voodoo witchcraft things are based off of works of fiction. I know I have several different magical presentations written down in my journal that are based around witchcraft and voodoo stories, that are completely made up.

Truly I feel that this is another case of someone being to sensitive. It is like that huge **** storm that was mad because someone used the old internet meme:
"Arguments over the internet, is like winning the special olympics. Even if you get first place your still retarded."

Anyway, I am not buying into this little personal revolution but applaud you for holding your ground I guess. Have fun do what you like I don't really care.


Silver
 
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