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Discussion in 'Cardistry & Flourishing Forum' started by spade57, Oct 10, 2013.
when we do flourishes like jakson 5 , pandora , preqel , etc what do people think about us ?
Same as magicians. Too much time on your hands
I show flourishes to people constantly and the reactions are just fine. I just think the emotions are different, that's it. You aren't amazed by flourishes, you're impressed. It's the difference between going to a David Copperfield show and going to a Cirque du Soleil show. Really, unless you want to bore the heck out of people watching, you can't just do two handed cut after two handed cut. They aren't going to see the difference between Sybil and Very Bad Habit, or the difference between any of the Madonnas. There needs to be an obvious difference between the moves if you want them to stand out and impress people. Similar to magic, how you don't want to change a Four of Spades into a Four of Clubs, or a Jack of Diamonds into a Jack of Hearts. I like to do moves like Tetris by Franky Morales, some sequencing with one handed cuts, Accordion by Dimitri Arleri, card twirls (but don't over-do it), some aerials, springs. I don't think that flourishing inherently brings bad reactions, I think bad performers bring bad reactions.
The way most guys do it? The reactions I've seen tend to be, "Wow, cool!" for about a minute, and everything after that is, "Okay... now what? Is this going somewhere?"
Speak for yourself. I never get that reaction.
Flourishing is a purely physical skill. It takes consideration to make these performances interesting. Watch a juggler - Most of them just juggle. It's interesting at first, because it's a skill you haven't seen before. But it really doesn't take much time before your mind adjusts to this and just accepts that the juggler can keep things in the air. No big deal. But if you can change the patterns, change the numbers, change the objects, etc. you can keep people entertained.
The same should apply to flourishing (which is closely related to juggling, honestly) - If you can routine your flourishes well, keeping an interesting pace and varying what it looks like to the audience (not to other flourishers - assume your spectators know nothing about flourishing) you can create an interesting performance. In theory.
I will admit - I've never really seen this happen. But don't take my assessment too seriously. I just don't really get into purely physical displays any more.
I was saying magicians think the jugglers have too much time on their hands. 99% it is the same cuts and fans that leads to move cuts and fans. It doesn't lead to a dove or rope or anything other than more cuts and fans.
True. Flourishing is very esoteric largely due to the size of the prop. To the uninitiated, all it consists of is cuts and fans. Over and over. Which makes it difficult to make really entertaining to anyone who doesn't understand the skill involved in what's being displayed.
I know it is skill, but 99% of the time it leads to more of the same. I love Eric Clapton, but you listen to him long enough you start to hear the same licks and runs over and over. Sometimes you need to throw a little something different in there to give your ears a break The same with the XCM. Sometimes you really need to do something else to give the eyes something different to see. It could be something as small as a deck switch to go from a white deck to an all black deck. Something to just change it up a bit.
I never understood someone involved in entertainment - after having watched a display of some skill, describing someone as "having too much time on their hands". Doesn't that seem a little silly and totally insecure about oneself? Especially when those very same critics are people who have put time into learning and perfecting their OWN craft? Kind of applies to everybody that says it, we're all trying to be good at something. I see it a lot from magicians with regards to cardistry - but I digress. Not that anyone here would have said such a thing... haha
That said, since cardistry is indeed so closely related to juggling, I think that's a huge positive. Opens a window of opportunity to capitalize on that. Everyone has tried to shuffle a deck or build a house of cards. After all, almost every household has a deck of playing cards. Chances are, you've dropped cards before even if you haven't seen a cardist or a magician in your entire life.
Have your spectator follow along and teach them a simple charlier to jog their memory - works wonders. Of course, try to minimize the flashy two handed cuts to a minimum, they really do look the same after a minute or two. Change it up, drop a card or two and never be perfect. Perfection is impossible to relate with and too easy to get used to (hence why magicians need patter and personality, so they can relate, magic is perfect and staying grounded on the audiences' side is key). Don't condition them in that direction. Start slow and build on that. Peaks and falls. DROP CARDS! Those are awesome opportunities to surprise people and make jokes.
Use a little bit of everything. Aerials, springs, cuts, fans, two handed cuts, surface manipulation, audience involvement and participation and you're set to go.
I honestly think this comes from a variety of places. It is a bit of insecurity, of course. Displays of finely tuned skill can be intimidating and humans have a natural urge to boost themselves up around those they perceive as having something of higher value than what they can offer. I also think it comes from not knowing what to say and feeling a bit embarrassed about not knowing how to react.
Exactly! Make a show of it. Well put.
Same reason people make fun of nerds: they don't see the value in it or how it in any way enhances someone's life. You prove them wrong by creating value. People don't make fun of Peter Jackson. Yeah, he's a nerd. But he's also a nerd who won 11 Oscars.
I quote this all the time, but to build on what krab is saying, there's a line from Kurosawa's The Lower Depths: "The things we love define us." Assuming that, what do you think it says about someone that they can only have one love or hobby or passion?
I'm a little confused, who's "they"? People that bother your performances? I agree, it's certainly wrong of them to do. Not nice of them at all. What if they were breakdancers or beatboxers though, would you generalize everyone who loves doing that as people with no social ability and too much time on their hands? Maybe I'm misunderstanding.
We all have the same exact amount of time each day throughout our lives, how we focus that time is our choice. Value or no value (which is subjective anyhow). If one sees zero value in something for themselves, I can understand why they'd want to omit focusing on that. However, to say the rest who do "have too much time on their hands" is plain insecurity.
If they use those skills to steal another performer's audience in the middle of his show? Yes.
Again, it depends entirely on whether it's enriching your life or controlling it. In middle school and high school, I had no life. I was an obnoxious social retard with extremely narrow interests and a fanboy complex. Then I turned 18 and got over it. Started expanding my horizons and learned that there are things out there I had no idea I thought were fascinating. Now the question I hear most often is, "Where do you find stuff like this?" because I always have something new and cool to show or tell people about.
Yes I would. Anyone who doesn't have enough common sense to know when not to do something have no social grace. There is value in XCM, but the ones I see in my day to day life only do XMC and do it at all the wrong times. There is a part in my show where I say now let me do a simple cut and for some crazy crazy cuts. It gets a laugh and it lets people know this isn't your creepy uncle's card trick.
I have a world of respect for people who are into breakin' and do it well. That is a skill I fell in love with back in the 80's. What I have no respect for are those who do not understand there is a time and place for everything.
People who are insecure are those who only focus on one thing and use it as a social crutch. I can talk classic and modern literature, blues music, classical music oldies and standards. I can talk cars and three different types of auto racing. I can talk video games.
What I'm talking about are like the elitist raiders in World of Warcraft who can only talk why you suck because as a frost mage you are running more than 29% crit on a raid boss. Or XCM kids who can't talk to people with out a deck of cards in their hands and then that is all they can talk about. Or guitar players who say music starts and ends with SRV. That Yngwie Malmsteen is a no talent hack yet all the can play is 12 bar blues. This is what I'm talking about.
Gaetan Bloom said in one of his lectures "Don't be a specialist. A specialist knows less and less about more and more on a little subject." Meaning, sure you know 400 card tricks, but you are lost if you loose your cards. Be curious about magic. All of magic. Be different. Take time to learn effects outside of your comfort zone. Same thing with life. Stop, look around, and see there is more out there than your one fixation. That people around you don't really care that your cards are limited to 250 deck. They might be into music, poetry and cooking, but all you want to talk about are your cards. All you know are your cards.
How silly of me. You're right, since we're on a magic forum, let's talk politics, cooking, and poetry. No wait, tell me more about how all cardists have no lives because you took the time to get to know them so well on a personal level. Here's a news flash, we're not in a social gathering getting to know each other, so the fact that you're generalizing about a pretty large group of people due to a few bad apples, proves my point with regards to insecurity. All good!
That is a bit snippy. Really brings up the brand. Insecurity would be going into an interview with a movie star and spend half the time doing XCM instead of talking about the movie.
First off this isn't a magic forum. This is a card magic and XCM forum. No where is there a sub-forum for parlor or stage or rope or other close up magic. It doesn't cover the wide world of magic, just card, some coins and XCM.
The question was asked what do lay people think of XCM. They think the same thing they think of most magicians. That we have too much time on out hands. What I was pointing out that those who only know and talk about one thing really do have too much time on their hands. What I'm saying is look at Ricky Jay. We know the man loves magic, but he doesn't like magicians. Why? Because most magicians only talk about magic and they like to lift effects patter and all from more creative magicians. We know he is a great card man, but he can talk about a wide range of subjects. He gives lectures about everything but how to do magic.
I'm not saying lets talk about cooking cars music and the like. I'm saying there has to be more to your life than XCM or magic in general.
Thirty seconds out of 4 minutes, your arithmetic may be bit off on that but thanks for watching. Certainly your opinion and you're entitled to it. What you were doing is generalizing a group of people based on your insecurity and then proceeded to judge and belittle them - including myself. All due to a few bad individuals you've met and specifically in this case - interrupted your show. Simple as that. As far as what lay people think of cardistry or magic - depends on the performer, I think that's already been answered in detail.
You are doing the same thing saying I'm insecure as a person because I'm tired of no talent hacks trying to steel my crowd. I'm sick of seeing kids doing magic on youtube with nothing but their hands and junk in frame. I'm tired of people finding out I'm a magician and then lumping me in with those magicians who only talk about magic. Because I'm tired of seeing magic run into the ground by people who use it as a social crutch to talk to strangers. It's hard to work as a working pro and be insecure. It
s hard to co-host a radio show and be insecure. What I am is someone who love the art and want to see it elevated back to where it once was before it because what it is today.
P.S. I didn't watch it was shown to me by someone who wanted to know why all magicians have to make it all about them, and why I never do stuff like that. I went and watched now. The two i found first were both starting around 2 minute in and it was more than 30 seconds.