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Why I hate theory11

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Jebamagic, Apr 13, 2013.

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  1. Hey, I'm a 15 year old magician and I perform ALLOT of street magic here in Denmark, and I practice 5-8 hours a day!

    But why I hate Theory11? I hate Theory11 so damn much because they always clip some of the parts of the tricks they sell. They never show the full performance, they always show it in the explanation. Like Theory11 never shows the full performance on Youtube or Theory11 of a trick, they always cut something out. And its not only with Theory11 its also with Ellusionist and its the annoying thing about it. They clip the parts off just so they can fool us.

    Well when I see a full performance of a trick then I know how its done and think that I wasn't suppose to waste that money on that crap. It's like you guys are cheating. Show the full performance or something, You never do it Theory11. When I see the full performance of a trick I buy then I know exactly how its done most of the time. But when I see the trailer, then its exactly cut out the clip where the secret happens. But in the full performance you don't clip it ,it happens in many downloads
     
  2. That's the wrong attitude to have. Unfortunately, as the years go by and you learn more and more about the art and familiarize yourself with the many different techniques to do different things, it's hard to be 100% genuinely fooled. I'm not proud of it, but whenever something comes out, although I don't know the whole workings of the effect, I have a good idea as to how several key things are done. Does that mean that I'm not going to buy it? No. I'm buying the effect to properly learn the doings of the effect. If I know many of the doings already, I'm buying to learn a different vision of the effect that way I can improve my performance of what I know of the effect already. I'm also buying the rights to perform the effect which is very important as well. We all know that 90% of card magic involves a double lift of sorts, but does that mean because I know there's a double lift in the effect that I can perform it? Typically what these trailers represent are what spectators get out of the effect. They aren't necessarily seeing all those unnecessary moves, they see the product. A good example of this is Smoke. Now, while they leave a key part of the effect out of the trailer, it's not necessary to put in the trailer, because, performed right, the spectator won't notice it. So I see their reasoning. It would be nice to get some full performances of effects, but it's not always necessary. learn to love to learn.
     
  3. As Asher said, the parts left out of the demo are done so because the demo is supposed to be what the audience sees and remembers. It is also, sometimes, to avoid people just reverse engineering the effect instead of buying it.

    I can attest to what he said about Smoke. My friend has it, and I rarely see him do the get ready, I just look up and see smoke pouring out of his mouth.

    If you don't like Theory11 and Ellusionist and such, don't go there. Simple. Posting a rant like this just makes you seem immature.
     
  4. Yeah, and why do movie trailers only show us about 90 seconds worth of clips? Why don't they put the whole movie up on TV for free so that we can see it before we buy a ticket? And let's go after those pricks on the radio, too. This nonsense about "singles." How come they don't play the whole album at once? What are they hiding? I'm also going to be boycotting books from now on until publishers come up with a way for me to upload all the content directly to my brain before I buy the book. I shouldn't have to read it to find out I don't like it.
     
  5. RickEverhart

    RickEverhart forum moderator / t11 Moderator

    Hello Jeba,
    Certainly you are entitled to your own opinion.
    Theory11 does not always show full presentation uncut (but we often do - ie, Filter, Vertigo, etc.) as unlike live performance, it's possible to watch a trailer 100 X in 720p HD to dissect the performance without honoring the creator by purchasing. Our goal is to "fairly" show how the audience sees the effect - faithfully. And if you are unhappy after purchase, we stand behind our products more than anyone with a guarantee.
    If you take time to read through the reviews for almost all of our products - 4 and 5 stars - speak for themselves as to the validity of our work.
    Let me know if there is anything else I can take care of for you.
     
  6. Josh Burch

    Josh Burch Moderator

    Where they can theory11 does show the whole trick look at the Transit trailer, look at the Prophet trailer, look at any of Chris Kenner's stuff. Look at Jason Englands downloads. Look at Dan and Dave's Jebamagic you're wrong, about half the time they do show the whole trick.

    About half the time the method works great live but wont stand up to repeat viewings by 15 year old magicians like yourself. Like they mentioned with smoke, you need misdirection. On video, you don't get that. A good portion of the downloads aren't edited at all though.
     
  7. Nicholas17

    Nicholas17 Elite Member

    Hahahaha. This should about sum it up.

    It's just one of those things, where the more knowledgable you acquire about sleights and methods, the more obvious many things on the market will be. What Theory11 tends to do well, and Ellusionist for that matter, is include thorough information in the downloads that make them worth purchasing whether or not you are capable of reverse engineering the method. If all you are looking for is the simple "how" to do something, you're more than likely missing a lot of valuable information.
     
  8. I think that you are just a kid who doesn't want to spend his own money on magic stuff. You want to just figure it out yourself to save a few bucks. Things aren't cheap, and never will be. Get used to it now. If you are really into magic then you are going to have to get used to throwing some money into the art. I is not something you can do as effectively all by yourself. You need to spend money to get books and DVDs to advance in the craft. Get that into your head, life isn't always going to give you things that you want and you aren't going to get things for free. They do the cuts because they need people to buy it to make their own money and pay their bills. If they didn't, then little immature kids would figure it out and reveal it on YouTube for everybody to know.
     
  9. i don't know... he has some good points. i think everyone has bought something they regretted because of a trailer and a company that over hyped it. Cough*fourfit*cough. although i think theory11 does a good job of staying away from this, i almost never buy a magic trick without first seeing a full uncut performance and checking all the reviews.
     
  10. D@n

    D@n

    The point of the trailers is not to let you figure out the trick so you don't have to buy it.
     
  11. Nicholas17

    Nicholas17 Elite Member

    Here's the thing: the very nature of what we do is mysterious. That makes magic an interesting product in the marketplace, because part of what we are buying is a secret. Because of this, unlike many other things we might buy, sometimes we have no idea what we are getting, and with that variable, you have to take into account the fact that sometimes, if not a lot of the time, you might be unhappy with your purchase.

    I've bought a number of magic dvds or tricks that I've wound up closeting and not using. Sometimes, I'll even give them away to other magicians who I feel might get more out of it than me. Is it disappointing? Of course. Money doesn't grow on trees. But if you plan on spending money to increase your knowledge or ability in this field, part of your expense planning has to be for tricks that you may not ever end up using.
     
  12. I don't mean to be rude. But that is a terrible argument. I'm a 16 year old boy with virtually no income; All the money i do manage to scrape up through oddjobs or birthdays goes right into magic. To say it's normal and OK to waste my money on subpar products because "the very nature of what we do is mysterious" is ridiculous. And sure when you buy a magic trick you may be buying the secret, but for a company to sell you a secret that was hidden through editing and lies (again i'd like to use forfeit as an example) is immoral and i will never purchase anything from that company again.
     
  13. Josh Burch

    Josh Burch Moderator

    It's super easy to do your research though. Don't make impulse buys and don't buy things you wont use.
     
  14. True enough. We have the phrase "caveat emptor" for a reason. I've made purchases that didn't work out. But I don't blame the company and I don't blame myself. Sometimes things just screw up. Very rarely do I feel like I actually got ripped off.

    And before anyone complains about how they don't make enough money to make mistakes, let me ask you if you're up to your eyeballs in student debt. You want to talk about how you never have enough money, let me give you an earful about my loan payments sometime and see how bad you think you have it then.
     
  15. Nicholas17

    Nicholas17 Elite Member

    Where to start...

    First of all, I never said it's ok to waste money. I said you have to prepare yourself to be disappointed. I also never said buying or selling bad products is ok, what I was implying, is the fact that even if something is amazing, not everyone will use it. Different performers are turned off by different methods for different reasons. It's difficult to cater effects and methods to every performer.

    Secondly, if you are a 16 year old, or an anything year old, for that matter, with virtually no income, you should be making the most informed purchases you can when it comes to your hobbies. Does that mean trailers for single effects should be dishonest? Absolutely not. They should be as honest as possible without blatantly giving away the method. Perhaps, for as long as you have virtually no income, you should be making purchases that you can get more out of like classic books on sleights and misdirection. But once you have money that you set aside for magic, you have to brace yourself to be disappointed every once in a while without going on an immature tirade against the magic injury.

    I say none of this as an attack, but as advice.
     
  16. j.bayme

    j.bayme ceo / theory11 Staff Member

    http://media.theory11.com/5778-vertigo---the-original-raw-performance
    http://media.theory11.com/7580-filter-unfiltered
    http://www.theory11.com/tricks/detach-rick-lax.php
    http://media.theory11.com/6435-raw-ipredict-performance

    Jeba,

    To answer your concerns directly, I hope and trust you use the term "hate" as an exaggeration, as that's a very strong word that I hope not be an accurate summary of your feelings. The truth of the matter is that our previews and product descriptions are, to the best of our ability, an accurate and honest, faithful portrayal of the effect within - all the while not exposing the method.

    As Rick mentioned, it's easily possible to watch a preview video 25 times in 720p HD (and some people do) to figure out a method without purchasing it. Therefore, we aim to show as much as possible, faithful to what a spectator would see in real life, while simultaneously preventing exposure. In addition to the product preview video, we also detail the features of the product in the description - explaining what the effect can (and cannot) do. This provides even more information (sometimes too much), like:

    "Perform Vertigo standing up or sitting down. Use your favorite pack of cards. No threads, no wires, no magnets. Self-contained. Instantly reset."

    Is it necessary for us to write "no threads, no wires, no magnets" for Vertigo? I don't believe so. If anything, it's providing hints towards exposure by process of elimination. IE, if it's not threads, wire, or magnets - what else is it? That's a slippery slope towards exposing our own effect. So I do believe that our marketing has been (and is) absolutely forthright and comprehensive to give you plenty of information as to what you're buying and what you're not.

    Add that to the fact that we have reviews on the bottom of every product page - coupled with our reputation. Our team would never put our name on something that we ourselves didn't love and support. The amount of work that goes into each product we touch is unprecedented. Artisans were over a YEAR in design. My first conversations with Mathieu Bich about Edge were in March of 2008. We pour our heart and soul into everything we do.

    And lastly - and this stands above everything else I just said - there should never be a moment when you "hate" anything purchased at theory11. Aside from The Wire (an independent marketplace of products we do not produce), if you ever have any feeling of serious disappointment with a purchase, we have the most unprecedented guarantee of any company in the industry. We stand behind everything we do.

    If you're ever deeply unhappy with a purchase - if you ever "hate" anything - please, contact us directly and if possible, we will make things right and make sure you're happy. We're people just like you, and we don't aim for you to be anything less than thrilled with everything we produce.
     
  17. Pav

    Pav Elite Member

    I seriously hope that you're just joking in a desperate attempt at getting attention from people that don't care about you. If not, stop crying. Ridiculous.

    Are you obligated to buy anything from Theory 11? No. You can decide for yourself what's valid and what isn't.

    Does Theory 11 make dishonest advertisements? No. Theory 11 is consistent with every commercial, trailer or preview I've seen on TV or just about anywhere else.
    They're in the business of selling magic and cardistry. Don't like it, Don't buy it. Easy. Don't deliberately expose yourself to things you know are going to upset you. It's like people complaining about Justin Bieber or whoever the hell they talk about now. Just turn off the radio. No need to throw a fit.

    Theory 11 is one of the best magic sites around. Ellusionist is too dramatic, The Blue Crown feels slow, Dan and Dave barely ever do anything and Magical Sleight removes their material after a "Season" or whatever. At Theory 11, you can get rapid feedback from the crew, opportunities to publish your OWN material, a community of magicians and performers that love what they do, great updates every damn week not just about Theory 11 but the entire magic world, and contests open to everyone every Saturday for God's sake.

    You're provided with a great website dedicated to the progression of magic and you complain. Unless they broke into your home and stole your magic collection or whatever, you have no reason to hate them. I can't wait to see how far Theory 11 goes in the coming few years; it'l certainly be further than you.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 13, 2013
  18. Alright i'll try to respond to everyones points separately.

    I always do my research, However lots of times you can't truly tell if a trick is good/right for you without buying it and working on it for a while. That said, not all magic tricks are created equal. Many are only decent tricks with fantastic marketing.
     
  19. first of i didn't mean to turn this into a "who's broker" pissing contest. i just meant i only have so much money to put into magic and i usually feel cheated when i purchase a trick that isn't quite what was let on. Again the only time i blame the company was in the case with "Fourfeit" where in fact they just lied about the effect.
     
  20. I don't believe that at all. I usually save all of my money, my only guilty pleasure are magic tricks, if i were to buy i trick with low expectations i wouldn't buy it at all. i would just save it.

    Fair enough.

    I agree for the most part. i decided after my last bad purchase i would only buy books that have stood the test of time.
     
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