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XCM = Cardistry?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Slash, Mar 19, 2011.

  1. Hey guys,

    As I'm sure you all know, this website (btw I'm NOT trying to say anything bad about t11) calls what most people call XCM "Cardistery". Does anybody know why? According to De'Vo, cardistery is cheating and it is really XCM. Anyone else wondering?
     
  2. Do you call it football or soccer? Exactly, it doesn't matter. I dont know alot about de'vo but that's nit picking.
     
  3. richard

    richard cardistry and media / t11

    Cardistry and XCM are two different words to explain the same artform.

    You can see a bit more about this in an FAQ I wrote almost 4 years ago: http://more.cardistrz.com/cardistry_faq.php

    The most relevant part for your question is:
    In this case, unfortunately yes De'vo is just trying to say "cardistry" means something else for his own personal reasons.

    Throughout the whole "cardistry" discussion, I've been very open about everything (and likewise in the FAQ).

    Also, now even the US Playing Card Company officially uses the word "cardistry" for the art on their website. Just sayin' :)
     
  4. Amen Richard. PS Long time no see.
     
  5. They are terms that go hand in hand.

    But to me they stand for different card manipulation styles.

    J.
     
  6. timsilva

    timsilva Elite Member

    The short answer: Yes, they are the same thing. I would argue that Cardistry is objectively & linguistically a better term though. (I'm not hiding my agenda, I am definitely biased towards Cardistry over XCM and have been since the it was challenged.)

    Cardistry is a newer term that makes more sense and is becoming accepted as time passes. As Richard said, even the US Playing Card Company calls it Cardistry now. :) See for yourself: http://www.bicyclecards.com/beyond-card-games-pages-4.php

    XCM (Xtreme Card Manipulation) is older and more widely recognized, but it was explicitly a marketing term that isn't very suitable to describe the art form as a whole. Cardistry is an all-inclusive, more logical title that came from Decknique which wasn't a business trying to create profit. Although to be fair, it has been used as a marketing term by Theory11 and others as well.

    I think it is wise to have no allegiance to either community for the basis of your decision of which one to use. Instead, use the term which is more logical, shorter in length, and doesn't require the use of an acronym (which leads to confusion/disappointment). Cardistry doesn't need to be explained to most people, it is self-explanatory. XCM requires an explanation, and an embarrassing one on top of it. :p I can't take myself or anyone seriously using the word "Xtreme" with an X to describe something that I am passionate about and an adult male. XCM shouldn't be forgotten, it will always have its place in the history books. I mean no offense to De'vo by supporting this new direction, and it annoys me when others pick on him for it.

    It should just be about the quality of the terms. As I have explained above, Cardistry is easier for us to communicate and easier for people to understand. If you have a better argument than that, please bring it up. :)
     
  7. richard

    richard cardistry and media / t11

    I haven't read those, they're new. But I can respond to them.

    Re: Cardistry always being linked to "Andrei cheating in the tournament", this is just another excuse for De'vo. Andrei is a phenomenal cardist. Look at Genesis. That stuff isn't sped up. If you've seen him in person, you'd know he doesn't have to speed up his stuff.

    Theory11 does use the term "cardistry" on their cardistry products, but it's NOT as a trademark! Cardistry in its current use originated on my Decknique website in 2006. Before theory11 launched, I was talking to JB about the whole "cardistry vs XCM" thing, and they agreed with me. But theory11 agrees with everybody using the term "cardistry", not just them.

    Did you know De'vo tried to trademark "Xtreme Card Manipulation"? theory11 wouldn't dream of doing that to cardistry.

    While theory11 does use "cardistry", it didn't originate from them. As Tim pointed out, it originated from a community with no business ties.

    Re: Cardistry being used as a magic term, I wrote a section in the FAQ about it:
    Re: Flourishes are with magic, I do actually agree with this. That's why I proposed "Cardistry" in 2006. Flourishes basically means you're adding onto something else. Cardistry was to encompass an art totally based on the fancy non-magical manipulation of playing cards. However, I don't believe in having to be absolute about this. If you want to add magic to cardistry, this shouldn't be frowned upon. If you want to add cardistry to your magic routine, that's fine too.
     
  8. Andrei

    Andrei vp, production [theory11] Staff Member

    Just to chime in on this, as Richard's FAQ points out, Cardistry was used to describe magic for a total of less than 20 times in the past hundred years. XCM on the other hand borrows a popular term from magic that is still heavily being used today - card manipulation. Card manipulation in magic is a term used to describe vanishing and producing cards and fans - think Jeff McBride. All things equal, the argument that Cardistry has been used in the past is flawed and XCM has a bigger dilemma to deal with in the same department.

    Regardless, I'm not a fan of using adjectives as part of a noun to describe an art or discipline. I let the audience decide what to call it.
     
  9. timsilva

    timsilva Elite Member

    +1 :)

    Can't argue with that logic.