September 7th, 2007 - September 9th, 2007
Q: What is wrong with Magic as an art today, and what can we do about it?
Q: What is wrong with Magic as an art today, and what can we do about it?
What Is Wrong With Magic as an Art Today...
- Thread starter waynehouchin
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Greetings! Welcome to our first discussion. Our first topic is a broad one & one that many of you will have strong opinions about. There are many different directions that this discussion may go, so I'll start.
The biggest thing I see wrong with magic today is that it is NOT respected as an art. Now that is a very easy complaint to make, however, if you ask the average person on the street to list off as many of "the arts" as they can - I would bet money that magic would not be one of them.
Granted, magic is becoming more popular & is trending upward within our society (due in large part, I believe, to shows like Mindfreak, Room 401 & David Blaine) but if we all agree that our art is currently not given the respect it deserves, what can we do about it?
I think that before we can answer that question, we must ask a much harder one: Why is magic not respected as an art? It's easy to point the finger at laymen & say things like "they just don't understand us,” but I would argue that is a cop-out. We cannot & must not blame our audience for not "understanding" what we're about. It is our job as artists to get our point across.
The blame does not lie with our audience it lies with us. I think that we need to examine why it is that there are so many magicians who DO NOT take what we do seriously. One could argue that the lay public does not respect magic as an art because there are so many bad MAGICIANS out there who do not respect magic as an art...
...However, on the other side, Jamy Ian Swiss points out, in his book "Shattering Illusions," that there are plenty of BAD musicians & painters in the world as well, yet they do not seem to ruin the perceptions of their arts.
So where does this leave us? To me, it feels like the next generation of magicians is really striving to take the art seriously & to present it seriously. Is this the case? If so, is it just a matter of time before magic is given the recognition it deserves? Or are we, as magicians, playing the victim card here? Perhaps there is something psychologically pleasing about viewing ourselves as the underdogs - the struggling misunderstood artists. Is it all in our heads?
What do you guys think?
The biggest thing I see wrong with magic today is that it is NOT respected as an art. Now that is a very easy complaint to make, however, if you ask the average person on the street to list off as many of "the arts" as they can - I would bet money that magic would not be one of them.
Granted, magic is becoming more popular & is trending upward within our society (due in large part, I believe, to shows like Mindfreak, Room 401 & David Blaine) but if we all agree that our art is currently not given the respect it deserves, what can we do about it?
I think that before we can answer that question, we must ask a much harder one: Why is magic not respected as an art? It's easy to point the finger at laymen & say things like "they just don't understand us,” but I would argue that is a cop-out. We cannot & must not blame our audience for not "understanding" what we're about. It is our job as artists to get our point across.
The blame does not lie with our audience it lies with us. I think that we need to examine why it is that there are so many magicians who DO NOT take what we do seriously. One could argue that the lay public does not respect magic as an art because there are so many bad MAGICIANS out there who do not respect magic as an art...
...However, on the other side, Jamy Ian Swiss points out, in his book "Shattering Illusions," that there are plenty of BAD musicians & painters in the world as well, yet they do not seem to ruin the perceptions of their arts.
So where does this leave us? To me, it feels like the next generation of magicians is really striving to take the art seriously & to present it seriously. Is this the case? If so, is it just a matter of time before magic is given the recognition it deserves? Or are we, as magicians, playing the victim card here? Perhaps there is something psychologically pleasing about viewing ourselves as the underdogs - the struggling misunderstood artists. Is it all in our heads?
What do you guys think?
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Hi Wayne , good to see you online ...Thanks for this oppurtunity ...
My thoughts on what is wrong with magic... I don't think a lot of the "elder" Magi take the new gen seriously. I know that I get funny looks at my IBM meeting when I have a custom deck in hand.
I think the people who take Magic seriously , the ones who are honestly entertained , are the ones who know it is an art form. The folks who do not see it that way are simply sceptical.
My thoughts on what is wrong with magic... I don't think a lot of the "elder" Magi take the new gen seriously. I know that I get funny looks at my IBM meeting when I have a custom deck in hand.
I think the people who take Magic seriously , the ones who are honestly entertained , are the ones who know it is an art form. The folks who do not see it that way are simply sceptical.
I think it could be that society has maybe accepted magicians as "trickers" rather than Miracle workers.
Back in Victorian times (and even before then) magic was more believable, this is probably because that back then anything was possible because there weren't that many theories of science that prevented magic to be real. Now there are plenty of theories that say "We can do this, and we cant do that, other wise it isn't real" and when people see a magician perform, people know it isn't real, its just an illusion. because of science.
I dont know, just my two cents.
Cheers, Tom
Back in Victorian times (and even before then) magic was more believable, this is probably because that back then anything was possible because there weren't that many theories of science that prevented magic to be real. Now there are plenty of theories that say "We can do this, and we cant do that, other wise it isn't real" and when people see a magician perform, people know it isn't real, its just an illusion. because of science.
I dont know, just my two cents.
Cheers, Tom
Hey Wayne,
I think exposure is one of the main problems with magic today. I mean, people pay good money for tricks and work hard to get them improved. And then some guy comes along, buys it, and exposes it on youtube or on that damn mass exposure site. (I think you know what i'me talking about)
Then the person who buys it really just wasted a ton of money because their secret is exposed for free for anybody to learn. And the creator of the effect gets screwed because people dont buy his product, they just learn it for free on the web.
I consider this theft, possibly grand theft, depending on how many people see the exposure.
Thats what I think is one of the main problems in magic today.
I think exposure is one of the main problems with magic today. I mean, people pay good money for tricks and work hard to get them improved. And then some guy comes along, buys it, and exposes it on youtube or on that damn mass exposure site. (I think you know what i'me talking about)
Then the person who buys it really just wasted a ton of money because their secret is exposed for free for anybody to learn. And the creator of the effect gets screwed because people dont buy his product, they just learn it for free on the web.
I consider this theft, possibly grand theft, depending on how many people see the exposure.
Thats what I think is one of the main problems in magic today.
What i think...
i think that the abundance and easy accessibly of magic secrets and supplies, has brought some people (young kids for example) that dont really respect the art themselves. they have no problem with revealing a trick, and sometimes have problems practicing.
then there are the layman who sometimes think that magic is "geeeky" and that you must be wierd if you do magic. i am lucky in my school, because people respect me for what i do, and love. not once has someone considered it geeky for me to do magic.
i thinks it really is a combination of magicians who dont obey the code, and laymen (and women!) who dont quite understand...
We must enlighten them!!
i think that the abundance and easy accessibly of magic secrets and supplies, has brought some people (young kids for example) that dont really respect the art themselves. they have no problem with revealing a trick, and sometimes have problems practicing.
then there are the layman who sometimes think that magic is "geeeky" and that you must be wierd if you do magic. i am lucky in my school, because people respect me for what i do, and love. not once has someone considered it geeky for me to do magic.
i thinks it really is a combination of magicians who dont obey the code, and laymen (and women!) who dont quite understand...
We must enlighten them!!
Very interesting & a great point. Back in, what some may call, "magic's golden time," there was a lot more mystery in the world. People could really accept & wonder about the magician's they saw. But how does that relate to David Blaine. Blaine had much of the lay population wondering if he HAD REAL POWERS... & he achieved this result using & performing fairly standard magic effects that WOULD NOT normally fool a magician. What is the X factor?
I believe it was his personality & presentation, but if that is the case, we have to ask ourselves "does the fact that science has progressed to where it is today really make a difference at all?" Does it make any difference that there is "less mystery" in the world today?
I believe that not many people respect our art. I have heard the sterotype that magic is for "dorks" and "little kids", and i think this really damages how people think about our art. They don't realize the hard work and perseverence our art requires us to do. I also agree that exposure is a big problem. I have personally experienced, while performing kaos, a layman saying "Oh I know how to do thattttt....", and then proceeding to explain the effect, in full detail. Once the secret is known, the magic goes away. We need more people to believe in magic, and in doing so our art will become more respected. That's my two cents!
dM
Interesting. But how do we get "more people to believe in magic?" We can't possible blame the audience for seeing or figuring out how a trick is done. Isn't it our job to make them believe? Doesn't that responsibility fall on our shoulders as the artists?
Hi,
Now first of all Magic isn't respected as an art for a simple reason, it is not presented as an art. The problem is that many magicians do magic just to impress other people, get recognized if it is in school or at job and not give the respect that Magic should get. There are only few that really present their Magic as an art.
Another problem is that most of the Illusions today are more in the supernatural field, making things happen that in science is considered as impossible. Now think about it, why will it be considered as an art? Supernatural is not an art and there are two possibilities when you do a supernatural kind of Illusion:
1. People will think you are supernatural.
2. People will think that you are a fraud.
Unless the supernatural Illusions will be presented as an art. For example: If you will start all of your shows by telling your audience/spectators that what you are about to do is actually the pure art of slight and illusion and you have trained for a long time to get to the level of skill you are now you’re audience will understand an they will not even go and think that any of the things you do is supernatural.
Now why is it good?
1. You will not become a lire by misleading your audience to think that you are supernatural.
2. You will be presenting Magic as an art form and you will leave your audience with the felling that you are a talented artist.
So this is my view on our magic today, now I want to hear your opinions about it and see were this conversation is going.
Thanks,
The Illusionist
Now first of all Magic isn't respected as an art for a simple reason, it is not presented as an art. The problem is that many magicians do magic just to impress other people, get recognized if it is in school or at job and not give the respect that Magic should get. There are only few that really present their Magic as an art.
Another problem is that most of the Illusions today are more in the supernatural field, making things happen that in science is considered as impossible. Now think about it, why will it be considered as an art? Supernatural is not an art and there are two possibilities when you do a supernatural kind of Illusion:
1. People will think you are supernatural.
2. People will think that you are a fraud.
Unless the supernatural Illusions will be presented as an art. For example: If you will start all of your shows by telling your audience/spectators that what you are about to do is actually the pure art of slight and illusion and you have trained for a long time to get to the level of skill you are now you’re audience will understand an they will not even go and think that any of the things you do is supernatural.
Now why is it good?
1. You will not become a lire by misleading your audience to think that you are supernatural.
2. You will be presenting Magic as an art form and you will leave your audience with the felling that you are a talented artist.
So this is my view on our magic today, now I want to hear your opinions about it and see were this conversation is going.
Thanks,
The Illusionist
Exactly Misner, we need a counter effect to our effect.
Leave our spectators speachless.
If theres a way to have a trick seem so easy, then have the spectator state what happened, or what it seemed to them what happen, and possibley do it without there standards of what happen, watching there dumbfounded reactions.
Possibley a levitation, like David Blaine's, and by exposure, sadly everyone knows this. But the spectator would call you out because they 'know' how to do it, and all the magician has to do is turn around and perform it that way, then see what they say, I've been working on something like this but so far things arn't going to well.
Maybe the fact is that Magic is more readily available to get in to... It used to be that the elder Magi and very few books were the only source. Is it possible that with the wide spread availabilty the more unethical people do not have to work as hard as folks once did in order to acquire the knowledge. Meaning that it is maybe too easy for unethical magician want-to-be's to "find the secret" and then expose it.
I think your right about Blaine, about it being down to his personality. Has any one seen the Prestige? "He lives his act" I guess Blaine did that, he did all the ritual things and he had the weird eye thing, and it made it more believable. Blaine made the people wonder about what really was possible. I suppose you could say he was breaking down the laws of Science.
Cheers, Tom
Also, another point, I met my first Pro Magician yesterday in person, and we spoke a while, and he told me about 3 different stages of doing a trick.
1. Practising tilll you can do it alone, in front of the mirror.
2. Practise till you can perform it to a crowd.
And 3. the hardest. Practise till you can let the audience do the trick.
I think today, some magician's, when they perform, people think, "Its just slight of hand". But when you let the audience do the magic, they will think "Wow, did I just do that?"
I was watching him perform to a kid, and he was doing a coin routine, and he was making coins come out of no where, and he pulled a coin from this kids pocket (and while doing this, loaded the kid with coins) and everyone was like, hes good with his sleights, then the Magician said, "Arnt you going to give me the rest" and the Kid said " I dont have any more" he checked his pockets as he said that and pulled out these coins and the crowd went while.
Right now, I'm feeling that the public has a very negative concept of what magic is. They associate it with kiddie stuff and child's play. Not to mention a few magicians I have run into are seriously some of the weirdest people I have met. When you have bad social skills, are obnoxious or pushy, and dress strangely, you will not be taken seriously.
Also, some magicians seriously underestimate the intelligence of some people now. If you're a 40 year old guy, in a cheap Hawaiian buttondown shirt, and you show someone a trick like Hot Rod, you probably deserve to be laughed at.
People forget, that magic is just like other forms of entertainment. You're putting yourself IN FRONT OF OTHER PEOPLE. Make yourself presentable, learn to speak smoothly, have an interesting presentation, and do amazing routines.
Also, some magicians seriously underestimate the intelligence of some people now. If you're a 40 year old guy, in a cheap Hawaiian buttondown shirt, and you show someone a trick like Hot Rod, you probably deserve to be laughed at.
People forget, that magic is just like other forms of entertainment. You're putting yourself IN FRONT OF OTHER PEOPLE. Make yourself presentable, learn to speak smoothly, have an interesting presentation, and do amazing routines.
My best guess would be in between a combination of the secrecy, and the american tendency to gravitate towards instant satisfaction. I wouldn't boil it down as much to bad performers, more bad presentation. Meaning lack of innovation and the tendency to accept the normal. Many magicians tend to do the same tricks that everyone else does, with no sense of originality. (there are times when I'm guilty of this as well, though I don't perform much) It would be like turning on the radio, and hearing every band play the same song. Or worse, different songs that all sound like the same band. Eventually you tire of it, and change the station. This stems partly from the market being flooded with horrible cheap tricks, and also those that churn out DVD's one after the other, with more emphasis on making money than actually teaching their effect well enough to be performed like it should be. With an emphasis on performance, all of the most well known and/or popular people in magic seem to be better performers than they are anything else.
Also, It's nearly impossible, (at least in my area) to find somebody to bounce things off of, whether you want a teacher, or a mentor, or just a peer to help you out. Rarely do you see a DVD or set of notes that goes into the psychology of an effect, what your spectator should be thinking, or how to augment that feeling of astonishment. I've even seen a few that show you a fairly convincing and elevating trick that leaves you dirty, and doesn't explain how to get out of it. Put that in the hands of a 13 year old, and get some respect. (No offense intended to anyone, as I've been quite impressed by some 13 year olds in the past.) Industrialization is the downfall to just about any artform, at least partially, and even that depends on your perspective. If you're happy doing OZ's ambitious card, followed by a quarter bite, and then some sponge ball tricks. Then that's fine, but you're going to run out of people to impress soon enough.
Innovation and evolution is the key to surviving anything. I have yet to see it, but I'm hoping that's what this site is about...
J.D.
Also, It's nearly impossible, (at least in my area) to find somebody to bounce things off of, whether you want a teacher, or a mentor, or just a peer to help you out. Rarely do you see a DVD or set of notes that goes into the psychology of an effect, what your spectator should be thinking, or how to augment that feeling of astonishment. I've even seen a few that show you a fairly convincing and elevating trick that leaves you dirty, and doesn't explain how to get out of it. Put that in the hands of a 13 year old, and get some respect. (No offense intended to anyone, as I've been quite impressed by some 13 year olds in the past.) Industrialization is the downfall to just about any artform, at least partially, and even that depends on your perspective. If you're happy doing OZ's ambitious card, followed by a quarter bite, and then some sponge ball tricks. Then that's fine, but you're going to run out of people to impress soon enough.
Innovation and evolution is the key to surviving anything. I have yet to see it, but I'm hoping that's what this site is about...
J.D.
Dependance and Sharing
I think, something holding us back, the general community of magicians, is the nature of our art. We Depend on the "amaze" factor for our art to succede. Other "arts" capatalize on the "share and compare" factor for which everyone has a specific taste (hey this alone could develop into a seperate post.) Example: Picaso started a whole painting trend by sharing his masterpeices and methods. People emulated Picaso, because they appreciated his works. For us, sharing is hard because it diminishes the "amaze" factor.
It all comes down to Governing Dynamics.
I think, something holding us back, the general community of magicians, is the nature of our art. We Depend on the "amaze" factor for our art to succede. Other "arts" capatalize on the "share and compare" factor for which everyone has a specific taste (hey this alone could develop into a seperate post.) Example: Picaso started a whole painting trend by sharing his masterpeices and methods. People emulated Picaso, because they appreciated his works. For us, sharing is hard because it diminishes the "amaze" factor.
It all comes down to Governing Dynamics.
Very well said. If we don't take ourselves seriously... how can we expect others to take us seriously.
i think the thing i find annoying is everthing in magic seemed to have happened in the 1980's. All the videos with Daryl, Ammar, Vernon, Paul Harris, Larry Jennings and more which taught not just one but hundreds of tricks. You had Tv specials of magicians now we only have crap like Criss Angel. We have nothing like that now which i find annoying
I think one of the biggest problems is that we as magicians are not always believing in what we are doing. I mean think about it...we are trying to create something special with our audience. Something that they have never seen before. Instead most of us are concerned with making sure that we have our sleights down or looking as cool as possible. To make this simple I think we as magicians should stop focusing so much on ourselves and instead focus more on the audience or spectators. I don't know about you, but I personally love seeing the faces of the spectators when they witness an effect, because to them that is pure magic. I hope that was able to be a help to everyone including myself. I believe that Theory11 is here to teach us things like this. There are so many lessons that we can learn from magic. I hope that we as magicians will remember what it is that we are really trying to do. We are trying to...truly...amaze...those who will believe. And if we can fool them...really fool them...even for a second. Then they got to see something...very special...real...magic. Thank you. Good luck to all...
All right guys - I have my opinions of this, but I want to know what you guys think: How much of the perception that magic is not respected as an art - is in our own heads? How much of it is us playing the part of the starving, underdog, misunderstood artist?
We have all had the experience of telling someone what we do for a living & having them ask "OK but what's your day job?" We've all been laughed at (to one degree or another) for being a magician... but what about a musician?
If someone were to ask you what you do for a living & you were to answer "I'm a musician - I play in a band" or "I'm an artist" - In general, would they take you seriously? I know that we all have that perception of the struggling artist/musician - does our perception affect their art negatively?
We have all had the experience of telling someone what we do for a living & having them ask "OK but what's your day job?" We've all been laughed at (to one degree or another) for being a magician... but what about a musician?
If someone were to ask you what you do for a living & you were to answer "I'm a musician - I play in a band" or "I'm an artist" - In general, would they take you seriously? I know that we all have that perception of the struggling artist/musician - does our perception affect their art negatively?
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