What Is Wrong With Magic as an Art Today...

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Heres something.

I just coincidently got off the phone with one of my friends who is also a magician and mentioned this topic to him, and he came off with a very good explanation which i (with his permission) will share.

"Most people's opinion of a magician, taking away the Blaines and Copperfeilds and Angels.. is thus:

The uncle at the family gathering who can pull his thumb off or take the penny out of the glass without touching whatever. The grandfather who used to pull coins from behind your ear or do one of those "Is your card in the packet? How about this packet?" tricks.
People dont respect magic as an art form because very few magicians are taking it out there and showing the uncle and the grandfather what real magic is. Pulling coins from behind your ear and bar tricks are still the standards that most laymen set magic at. They have never seen anything like having a card they hold in their hands visually change places the one you hold. And they wont, unless we do something about it."


Of all the members of the this forum, of all the magic communities and forums, ellusionist, MagicCafe, MagicHat etc., even people making videos on youtube..
how many of us go out onto the streets a few days a week, whenever we can and show our art to as many people as we can? Not just showing friends, but actually approaching strangers and amazing them?
How many of US, the magicians approach this as an art, as a commitment and a lifestyle? Not all of us. Many, but not all. And it should be all of us. We are the only ones responsible for how magic is accepted by the public and are the only ones who can change anything. Back in the 'Golden Age of Magic', people put the work in, built props, built sets, built theatres JUST for the magic. I fear that only a fraction of the work is being put in nowadays. And that is our problem. Rather than showing off to friends or making videos, we should ALL be out there, amongst laymen, practising our craft.
 
Sep 1, 2007
407
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Heres what I think. Magic is not respected as an art form because not many people have tried doing it. I'll show you what I mean.

People say music is an art form because, they them self cant do it. If everyone could play the guitar like jimmy hendrix then no one would care to much about it. You agree?

And if everyone could paint like Picasso or who ever, then no one would care to much about it.

The reason why people have such high respect for these things is because at one point, everyone tried to paint, and everyone tried to play the guitar, but they where not that good, they found out how hard it really was.

But with magic, you cant do that. Because magic is a secret, for the most part. Wile we perform we don't want anyone to know we did anything. We dont want anyone to see the pass we have been working on for 3 months. We dont want anyone to see the secret. People don't know how hard it is to do some of the things we do, and most people have never tried to do them. But thats the price you pay for keeping it a secret. Its just something we have to deal with.
 
Sep 1, 2007
38
0
Hong Kong
Actually so far after reading 9 pages of ideas, we can basically sort the whole discussion into 3 specific areas:

1. -Magicians with no liability to their own identity; they don't feel a need to follow strict rules of the art. They are willing to follow basic rules, but they simply step into magic for the purpose of self-enjoyment. The problem is worsening owing to the increasing exploitation over magic: "getting more people in magic, expanding the market for profit". The discussion will continue in finding WHAT magicians need to fulfill from the expectations of both the public and the artform itself.
2. –Those basic issues regarding legal and/or ethical violations.
3. Lay public not giving enough respect to the art itself.

I think for point 2, we all should have no problem in reaching a consensus.
And For point 3, I think the respect should be Earned on our part; it's never the spectator's fault....

afterall, whoever given them the misconceptions the first place, they must be magicians.....

and if it was magicians at the beginning who misled them into such thoughts, then why can't magicians change their mind again.


Now regarding the first point(in which I believe is the issue that is the most vague and need defining), I have coincidentally been discussing this field of the issue with a close friend of mine, KELVIN CHOW, just a few months back. And he introduced to me his theoretical definition of the whole magic community--

Maybe we there is no problem with magic as an art. There could be a lot of problems, but not all are necessarily RELATED. Maybe there are always going to be 2 attitudes towards magic. Maybe, we need to realize that we need to differentiate between:

MAGIC AS A HOBBY, and
MAGIC AS AN ART.


So magic is our hobby. With the definition of Hobby, we want to get enjoyment out of it. Therefore under the idea of not violating the interest of anyone else, we should have fun out of it..... AS LONG AS WE REALISE WE STAY UNDER THE CATAGORY of : "magic as a hobby."

This includes what, like creating yet another TnR, trying to do the fastest Pass,
perfecting those super angly coin stuff? competing with others on the most number of coin rolls per minute. COLLECTING gimmicks and antique items. Write up jokes about magic. Only chasing after pure sleight of hand magic. Collecting all the different colours of bicycle riders.

However, if any magician is to ever go into a state where influences to the PUBLIC IS MADE, laws of "MAGIC AS AN ART" applies.

States of influencing the public includes EACH AND EVERY formal effect performed to lay spectators? YOUTUBE? public appearances?

Laws of magic as an art might include rules such has handling spectators, public image, guiding those spectators who actually are interested in magic, basic magician codes, attitude of performing, applications of magical techniques limiting to actual fraud, etc.

AT THE SAME TIME, for all people who are interested in magic, THE MOMENT they AGREED to bear the identity as a magician, they must follow the BASIC RULE: THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DISMISS ANY ELEMENTS OF MAGIC AS AN ART, because they chose to bear such identity, and they are getting benefits and enjoyment from it. We can call this a simple trade of rights and responsibilities.


That's what I think is a problem as well......maybe we actually need a catagorization of the problem itself-- people have the right to treat magic as a hobby, but when they do, they need to know where the line is drawn, and when they will get themselves across the line.



So what's the problem with our art today? We now see 2:

There is no such line, and NO ONE KNOWS there should be a line (education issue?)
and we have no punishments.
 
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Sep 2, 2007
5
0
Chico, CA
Lines an punishments can never be.
Classification is what tends to stagnate things. Boundaries are relative and subject to perception, to put these ideas into place, we would have to have a "magic dictator" or president.
You don't see any guitar players getting punished for play poorly, or fingering incorrectly, god knows Cobain would have been flogged to death before any of his albums hit the market... Then where would the grunge scene be?
 
Sep 1, 2007
38
0
Hong Kong
Just because there will always be those who choose to violate, doesn't mean we should not Set the basic rules of guidelines at the first place. If not there would be a justice system set at the first place. And when has the law been perfect? Should we therefore dismiss every bit of it?



without a clear direction and setting down some basic definitions for the art, it will be very hard to get any actual progress.

And you got the idea wrong, It's not about playing poorly or making beginner faults, BUT OPEN DISRESPECT TO THE ART ITSELF WHICH ULTIMATELY CAUSES DAMAGE TO the art itself. This includes all acts of dismissing the effort of other magicians, revealing the secret for someone else, openly sharing materials.

There is a HUGE difference between making a mistake and heading towards a wrong direction.



to say, I'm not even asking for a government or sth, that's kinda ridiculous at least for now.

But at least there isn't even the basic PROMOTION or INTRODUCTION of the basic virtues of being a good magician. If we don't start with ourselves, we will never get anywhere. At least we need to let everyone KNOW there should be a line. Whether you should follow it for the sake of maturity, that's to each their own.
 
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Sep 1, 2007
223
1
Florida.
The biggest thing, for me personally, is this word right here: Practice.

SO MANY "magicians" are just skimping on that part of the magic. They think that the little bit of practice that they put in, 30 minutes tops, is all they need to go out there and perform for people. AAAAANNNNNNNTTTTTT! Wrong answer.

You need to put alot of time into your practicing you need to get every single nuisance in your performance. You need to know what to say and when to say it. And most importantly you need to make sure your deck handling is smooth.

That last point I made is BY FAR my biggest pet peeve about card magic. I can't stand someone who is performing and at the same time MAN HANDLING the deck. You need smoothness, Fluidity, you need to look like you know your frickin way around a deck of cards! When I see people do this I just wanna go irrate. People might be paying you to perform you need to show them that you are a professional you need to look a certain way, do certain things, and handle the cards like they think all magicians do.

So please for all magicians sake practice and be smooth.
And if you don't know what that looks like go on Youtube and search "Jordan Lapping" and be enlightened.

(Yes I know this issue seems small but this has been on my chest for a while.)
 
Sep 1, 2007
34
1
Orlando, FL
Here's a few excerpts from the introduction to the rough draft of a work I have been working on for some time. It examines what makes magic unique, how the cultural and environmental contexts affect the perception of what is performed, brings down the hatchet on the performances of most magicians, well-named professionals included, and comes to terms with what it may mean to perform magic in a modern context. This part is a section of the introduction:

Anyone who takes up performing magic at some point inevitably wonders why magic has a second-rate status among the performing arts. It is the only one whose texts do not occupy the drama section of the bookstore; instead they are shelved along with crosswords and chess. Unfortunately, magicians are content to merely acknowledge and lament magic’s subservient position rather than being proactive about examining the causes of its current status and taking action towards remolding it into a sought-after medium.

The majority of magic’s practitioners treat it as a hobby. Their interest rarely exceeds a desire to “pull one over” on their friends and family. You would be hard-pressed to find an acting-hobbyist who attempts to command attention at parties by gathering a group to watch him perform the Shakespearean soliloquy he learned earlier that week. But, this is the norm in magic.

Acknowledging this widespread phenomenon of self-proclaimed magicians, Jamy Ian Swiss writes:

Why does magic continue to suffer its embarrassing standing?...Magic has failed to achieve artistic standing because it has failed to transcend its technique…The fundamental technique of magic is that of fooling an audience. In fact, the most basic definition of magic might be this: To be a magician, one must fool the audience. But the problem is that for far too long magicians have stopped at that sentence and gone no further.

I agree with Swiss’s conclusions with respect to those interested in the practice of magic (i.e., those only interested in the method and the audience not knowing the method). However, I do not agree that they are the ones primarily responsible for the “embarrassing standing.” That responsibility falls on those interested in the performance of magic (i.e., presenting it as a performing art in front of an audience). These are the magicians with the most widespread exposure.

No one should expect an amateur magician to be good in the same way people going to the theatre to see a college production of a play don’t judge it as representative of theatre as a whole. The problem is that most people don’t expect any magic to be good, regardless of who’s performing it. I believe that this problem is not the result of magicians having “gone no further,” but rather that they have gone too far. By this I mean that the standard magic performance is one in which emphasis is displaced away from the magic to the performer’s character and his presentation. The performance is a diversion from the thing it is claiming to be. The end result is a muddled performance without any clear aim, whose sole goal is often to make the audience “just have fun.”

Many magicians leave the impression of a third-rate comedian. A whoopie cushion can do the same thing. Personally, I wouldn’t go see the performances of most magicians for the same reason I wouldn’t go watch a whoopie cushion at Carnegie hall: I don’t come away feeling like I spent my time valuably or that I got something from the performance that I could not have gotten otherwise. This is what most people are exposed to as magic, and it is not surprising that they don’t willingly want to view a magic performance.

In displacing the emphasis away from the magic, magicians have failed to establish an identity for magic that is separate from other forms of performance. This displaced emphasis is so long standing that I think I am justified in calling it a tradition. The tradition is supplemented by many people’s beliefs that magic in and of itself is incapable of holding an audience’s attention, or, to use that much-butchered word, incapable of “entertaining” them.

(SECTIONS DELETED SO THIS ENTRY WASN'T TOO LONG)

By now many of you are probably thinking that I have gotten something wrong and that the major issue is that laypeople are not exposed to magic in the same way they are exposed to dance, theatre, and movies. At one time they were exposed to a lot of magic. During its time, vaudeville was the most popular form of entertainment in America and magicians were widely featured on vaudeville bills. In fact, Harry Houdini was the number one act in vaudeville, and whether or not you consider him a magician that was the perception of laypeople. There is no denying that something changed somewhere, or perhaps failed to change.

Vaudeville was unable to adapt to the times, and the audiences eventually turned to other forms. This turning away is inevitable for any form where the practitioners do not constantly question and reconsider the validity of their performances. Without this constant reevaluation, the form will inevitably, as the theatre director/theorist Peter Brook wrote, “develop clichés and eventually decline.”

This is not a problem unique to magic, and the blame cannot be placed upon the audiences. Writing on theatre, the mad genius Antonin Artaud proclaimed, “If the age turns away from the theater, in which it is no longer interested, it is because the theater has ceased to represent it.” I find myself hard pressed to find magicians performing magic that represents our times.

(ANOTHER SECTION DELETED)

As misguided as [magicians'] views on performing are, focusing only on acting is even more so, as it ignores contributions from the last 100 years that have formed the foundation of modern understandings of theatre. A significant portion of this work has been focused on determining what makes theatre unique, what separates it from other forms. In doing so, theorists and practitioners were forced to abandon the creation of a composite performance of theatre and other forms: to understand the essence of theatre it was necessary to take away everything that was not a part of it. In the words of major contributors to this movement, the theatre theorist and director Jerzy Grotowski and the theorist Eugenio Barba: “In the first place we are trying to avoid eclecticism, trying to resist thinking of theatre as a composite of disciplines.

We are seeking to define what is distinctively theatre;” “All of the arts have purified themselves, eliminating the intrusion of other arts; they have rejected everything that was not necessary and vital to their own intentions. Only theatre has not done this.” I would add that magic still hasn’t.
 
Aug 31, 2007
122
0
www.myspace.com
Hey Wayne,

I think exposure is one of the main problems with magic today. I mean, people pay good money for tricks and work hard to get them improved. And then some guy comes along, buys it, and exposes it on youtube or on that damn mass exposure site. (I think you know what i'me talking about)

Then the person who buys it really just wasted a ton of money because their secret is exposed for free for anybody to learn. And the creator of the effect gets screwed because people dont buy his product, they just learn it for free on the web.

I consider this theft, possibly grand theft, depending on how many people see the exposure.

Thats what I think is one of the main problems in magic today.



I agree with Jacob. Exposure is a big problem in the magic community today. I recently say a TV show called "Breaking the Magicians Code:Magic's Greatest Secrets Revealed".

and thats exactly what they did. they showed, for free, everything from pulling a rabbit out of a hat to the classic trick where the assistant gets in a box and the magician runs swords through her. they also showed how to saw someone in half and and to make an elephant disappear. i know most magicians already know these tricks but for non magicians it completely destroys the illusion.

well those are my thoughts. you guys have had some good ideas so far! keep em coming (;



-Gears:eek:
 
I agree with Jacob. Exposure is a big problem in the magic community today. I recently say a TV show called "Breaking the Magicians Code:Magic's Greatest Secrets Revealed".

and thats exactly what they did. they showed, for free, everything from pulling a rabbit out of a hat to the classic trick where the assistant gets in a box and the magician runs swords through her. they also showed how to saw someone in half and and to make an elephant disappear. i know most magicians already know these tricks but for non magicians it completely destroys the illusion.

well those are my thoughts. you guys have had some good ideas so far! keep em coming (;



-Gears:eek:

I might get killed for saying this, but where did you see this? I don't want to be a "Ooohh free tricks?" guy, I just am interested in this show, and I think it could improve me as a magician.

(By the way, very good read, and I thought Cerca Trova or whatever was supposed to be a sunday only thread thing?)

Thanks,
Evan
 
Aug 31, 2007
52
0
I might get killed for saying this, but where did you see this? I don't want to be a "Ooohh free tricks?" guy, I just am interested in this show, and I think it could improve me as a magician.

(By the way, very good read, and I thought Cerca Trova or whatever was supposed to be a sunday only thread thing?)

Thanks,
Evan

It's one of the several (I think there were 4 overall) specials done by The Masked Magician (Just Val Valentino) explaining classic tricks, about a decade ago. There were a lot of magicians furious about it at the time. Most of the tricks have obtained more advanced methods since then.
 
Sep 1, 2007
407
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It's one of the several (I think there were 4 overall) specials done by The Masked Magician (Just Val Valentino) explaining classic tricks, about a decade ago. There were a lot of magicians furious about it at the time. Most of the tricks have obtained more advanced methods since then.


I remember watching that every week when it was on, cant remember a darn thing now.
 
Sep 2, 2007
3
0
It's one of the several (I think there were 4 overall) specials done by The Masked Magician (Just Val Valentino) explaining classic tricks, about a decade ago. There were a lot of magicians furious about it at the time. Most of the tricks have obtained more advanced methods since then.

Exposure is a double edged sword. On one hand it hinders magic because it makes the public more aware. On the other hand, it has forced magicians to be more creative. There is one thing we can do about this. Report piracy when you see it!

I also think that street magic may have hurt magic as a performance art. Stage magic is more acceptable as a performance art because they are usually better. There are so many 12 year olds trying to perform street magic and they are doing it poorly. There are also too many lonely people posting internet tutorials on tricks they really can't perform.
 

-Ty

Sep 1, 2007
248
1
Australia
I haven't bothered to look through the many pages of this thread. I just wanted to say something I'm fairly certain not a whole of people have addressed.

What is wrong with Magic as an art today? Us.

Today, tricks can be transfered, knowledge can be transfered in ten minutes, anywhere in the world. Magicians don't have to save, don't have to wait. In turn, these "magicians" don't give enough time and respect to the effect as it deserves. We get something, practice for a week then perform it, claiming it as being a staple of our repertoire, or as being (god forbid) "mastered". Not enough respect is given to magic, from us. To the history of magic, to the performance of magic, to the foundations of magic. These things will help to build Magic to an art.

Take these forums! This is to be a place to further this great craft, this potentially great art. But the people here are cluttering it up, with useless threads that don't help anyone! It's ok to chat about things, but useless "wat is ur fav. efekt?" threads are not helping! Neither is a million "articles" on performance, but that's another thread...

Go back and study the history of this "art". Painters do.

Learn your techniques, build a solid base in this "art". Musicians do.

Give your "art" the time and effort it needs, it wants. Artists do.

Ty
 
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Aug 31, 2007
122
0
www.myspace.com
I might get killed for saying this, but where did you see this? I don't want to be a "Ooohh free tricks?" guy, I just am interested in this show, and I think it could improve me as a magician.

(By the way, very good read, and I thought Cerca Trova or whatever was supposed to be a sunday only thread thing?)

Thanks,
Evan

im pretty sure it was on A&E or something.



gears
 
Sep 4, 2007
207
0
Kansas City
I think one of the problems is that everyone wants to be the next Criss Angel, David Blaine, or David Copperfield... they want to be the next big name in magic and that keeps the art from progressing and being percieved as an art form. Artists get together, artists share methods and technique, artists critique each other. Most places on line are so worried about exposure (and they should be) that they don't allow discussions on technique and method. I think that if it wasn't such a "one man" road we would be able to improve ourselves. If you can do a sleight a magician does not see, then a layman will definately be amazed.

Musicians have Ozzfest... magicians need an OzzFest... a huge show with tons of different magicians that travel the world performing for others. THAT would be a step in the right direction.
 

KatieKenner

that girl who posts videos sometimes / t11
Sep 1, 2007
645
3
41
Las Vegas, NV
www.myspace.com
I'm going to be honest. I didn't read EVERY post. But I'm going to tell you what I think is wrong with magic as an art anyway.

Sorry if I repeat anything. I was honest in the beginning.

Well the one thing that has become popular in the last 2-7 years is the "Venusian Arts" (look it up if you must). Cliffs notes version: The art of hooking up with chicks. The guy who founded it, "Mystery" now has his own VH1 show. (Funny how he won't use his real name.)

ANYWAY, he uses simple card and coin tricks as ice breakers. Now that this show is airing, there is NO WAY a group of the opposite sex will take you seriously. Trust me, I'm a chick, I have friends, we talk.

I think a way to get past this "new" stereotype is to not be creepy. Most people are smart. If you are genuine to who you are, you will be taken a little more seriously in your art form. Treat everyone equally and show equal enthusiasm for each effect you attempt.

Having a "character" is also very very dangerous. "Character" is for clowns... there is NOTHING wrong with being a clown, you obviously know what kind of entertainment is for you, and you embrace it. Bravo. Like I was saying, if you are at a restaurant, and you are "that crazy guy" that people want to avoid, you may want to check your "character." 9 out of 10 times, people are going to perfer the "real you" whether you are that dapper older gentleman magician, that cool casual kid with the spikey hair, or the awkward kid from the back of English Class. Know who you are and work on YOU.

Another observation of Magic Life:

Try being taken seriously as a GIRL magician. Now, females in magic are either:

A. Really Awesome, but being a girl... there is no mainstream outlet for them to be recognized.
B. Really bad, meaning they are still doing tricks from the 80s in a skin tight sequin leotard.

Yes, there is a lot wrong, and the masses are never really going to care about magic/magicians. There have been plenty of television series that use methods of magic, but no one cares.

I really do think that there is going to be a big change for magicians being recognized for skill someday. I hope it's soon. I see a lot of magic everyday, but all of it starts to blend together after a while. So lets start being creative, and proud of our art.

KE
 
Sep 6, 2007
15
0
I am a pro a street performer. Both magician and flourisher. I try and take my

art to a new level every time I am working, I try to make the most out of every

show. I work for tips, I now first hand the problems that magicians go thur.

Exposer, Hecklers, and people just not caring about the art they preform.

I look at it this way. If I am not good I don't get paid. Thats the same for any artist.

Like I said before. Be yourself. Perform what you now and have fun.:D
 

-Ty

Sep 1, 2007
248
1
Australia
Also, I have to say, it would be nicer if people addressed the question. This isn't a "what's wrong with magic?" thread. This is a "what's wrong with magic as an art today?". See the diiference?

Ty
 
Aug 31, 2007
263
0
For the fun of it, I would like to reinstate my point:

There's nothing wrong with magic. It's all in your heads. You THINK there's something wrong, so that you can try to improve yourself.

Stand back, and the ocean becomes broader, and the sky becomes wider.

- harapan. magic!














Now that my first reaction is out, let's try to pinpoint some simple things I wish to see changed in magic:

1. Excessive exposure, such as on video-hosting websites etc. This isn't a very important issue, but nevertheless, it's quite irritating.
2. Beginners not understanding the time it takes and the dedication it takes to become a magician.
3. Excessive secrecy of magicians.

I would like to elaborate on the 3rd point.

If you are going to say magic is an art, I would say magic is the art of deception. Simple as that. If you bring magic down to its most rudimentary form, strip away the patter, take away the comedy, forget about the presentation, mute the background music... it's just about how people fool others. Magic is really the art of deception.

Problem is, magicians are too afraid to let the audience know it's all a trick, that they're gonna be fooled by a trick, that they're gonna be deceived. Therefore, no audience sees magic as an art - they see it as a "let's-see-if-I-can-catch-him" kind of thing.

If you want magic to be an art, the first step is to be more open.

"Hey, aren't we being more open? Libraries stock books teaching magic tricks, bookstores have magic books, isn't that being open?"

That's not what I meant. "Open" here means to be open about magic itself - you don't have to be open about the specific methods you use in your effects, but you should not be afraid to tell others magic is all about deception. That's what magic is all about - it's an art, yes, but it's the art of deception. Let them enjoy the deception - let them see the beauty in the art of deception. Make them WANT to be deceived, because they want to see the beauty in magic. Let them enjoy the experience.

Magicians guard a very, very empty safe. They try too hard to hide the secret that it's all sleight-of-hand, misdirection and trickery. They think it destroys the "mysticism" of magic. While that might have a semblance of truth, don't expect people to think of you as a Merlin. They may think you have some supernatural powers, but that's because you did your trick well.

Plus, if they think it's all real, magic's hardly an art anymore. It's become some sort of pseudo-scientific phenomenon, in their eyes.

Talking about science, art and science are very related things. Art of science, science of art - in some way, magic can be a science too.

This is gonna get people angry, but sometimes when I'm sitting down, performing for peers, I do occassionally (but rarely) expose a certain sleight or trick. Why? Simple - I am letting them see the art of deception. I let them see the full trick at first, let them be amazed, then reveal how it's done.

Do you think they'll go "That's crap, it's stupid!"? No, I have never ever (honestly) gotten such a negative reaction after an expose. It's always a realization of truth, and they begin to appreciate magic on a different level, outside of just being amazed by the effect.

They begin to appreciate and see magic on the artistic level. How clever magic can be to trick others. How beautiful everything comes together into a nice presentational routine. My audiences understand the work behind a magic trick.

That, to me, is how someone understands magic as an art.

- harapan. magic!
 
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