What Is This Trick?
- Thread starter Tricky Nicky
- Start date
Thank you!!! I couldn't believe I forgot his name! You are correct
I know him! ( not personally, but, you know...)
Is this stealing?
Well, maybe.
Let's look at the situation.
First, this idea that one would have to ask Edison to use a lightbuld is sophistry at best and stupidity at worst. We are not talking about a product that has been sold to the mass market for decades. It always saddens me when people do not have the ability to recognize the difference.
But to the real point, Let's play a game:
Q1) You see a magician perform a killer trick. He invented it. He has never published the secret, nor taught it. Is it right to copy that trick in any form?
A) I would hope everyone would agree that it is wrong to copy that trick. Of course, you could ask their permission, and that would make it right. But without their blessing I hope you see this is wrong. If you do not, then there is no point going further. Clearly your ethical stance and mine will never coincide. There are people who have no problem taking anything they see. These people are thieves and copy cats.
Q2) You see a magician do a killer trick. You have no idea what it is and you have never seen anything like it before. You do a little digging and find out that this magician created it and has sold it in one form or another to the magic world, is it ok to use it?
A) While personally I find it creepy that you would go shopping for tricks in another magician's show, if that magician created the trick and sold it then he has given permission for others to use it. As long as you obtain an ethical copy of that trick, then it is ok to use.
Anyone disagree so far?
Here's where many of us will part company:
Q3) You see a magician do a killer trick. You have never seen anything like it before. You really want to use it. You ask some people online if they know the trick. Turns out it's an old idea. Is it ok to use it?
A) I believe that magic (art) should be special. As a performer, I spend my life trying to create unique memories for my audiences. Sometimes I do this by creating original pieces. Sometimes I do this by finding pieces that speak to my intent. Always I try to find pieces that are different and not being done by every magician on the planet. (Remember, I believe magic by definition should be special.)
Many magicians spend years seeking out overlooked tricks - diamonds in the rough - and a life time polishing them into brilliant stones. These tricks have been sitting there for anyone to find. But we didn't. They did.
They spent the time, effort, and had the artistic vision to recognize these as something special - and for them they became something special.
Is it right to take that away from them? Is it right to profit off of THEIR work, THEIR research, THEIR vision without their permission?
When you see a magician perform a trick outside of an instructional context, and you take that trick, you are taking their vision.
Is it right to take someone's vision - any part of it - without permission?
Any of you who were alive during the WGM specials saw this play out. There were two magicians who performed tricks that had been around for at least 20 years. No one was doing them, yet both men had turned them into signature effects. The moment these tricks aired on TV, the hyenas pounced. Now, they could have bought these tricks anytime. But they lacked the vision, the artistic sensibility, to recognize them as great. So they didn't. Instead they let someone else do their homework. They let someone else define their vision.
Ethically I find this creepy. Artistically I find this bankrupt.
So, to answer the poster who wondered if we have to ask Dailey for permission - no. Dailey published his trick, and if in your own research you were to find it and see it for the wonderful piece that it is you are more than welcome to perform it.
But, if you come see my act, see me do the trick and THEN go looking for it - you are stealing from me, you are stealing my work, research, and vision. Besides, why not just ASK me? Why be a coward and go behind my back if you truly do not feel there is anything wrong with what you are doing?
Let's put it this way: You find this *****in' trick on a DVD that totally rawks. You spend weeks working on it and it becomes your pet trick. Your friends at school say its the best trick you've ever done and that they've never seen a trick so kewl.
Then, this new kid shows up. He does a few tricks. Buys some stuff from E every now and then but you have way more Guardians than he has Vipers, so it's all cool.
Anyway, he sees you do your best trick. So, he goes to the E forum and asks if anybody knows it. Turns out someone has the same DVD you have. He buys the DVD and starts doing your best trick for all your friends (and you KNOW he doesn't do it as well as you do, you would totally crush him in a battle).
So, does this make you happy?
Brad Henderson
Well, maybe.
Let's look at the situation.
First, this idea that one would have to ask Edison to use a lightbuld is sophistry at best and stupidity at worst. We are not talking about a product that has been sold to the mass market for decades. It always saddens me when people do not have the ability to recognize the difference.
But to the real point, Let's play a game:
Q1) You see a magician perform a killer trick. He invented it. He has never published the secret, nor taught it. Is it right to copy that trick in any form?
A) I would hope everyone would agree that it is wrong to copy that trick. Of course, you could ask their permission, and that would make it right. But without their blessing I hope you see this is wrong. If you do not, then there is no point going further. Clearly your ethical stance and mine will never coincide. There are people who have no problem taking anything they see. These people are thieves and copy cats.
Q2) You see a magician do a killer trick. You have no idea what it is and you have never seen anything like it before. You do a little digging and find out that this magician created it and has sold it in one form or another to the magic world, is it ok to use it?
A) While personally I find it creepy that you would go shopping for tricks in another magician's show, if that magician created the trick and sold it then he has given permission for others to use it. As long as you obtain an ethical copy of that trick, then it is ok to use.
Anyone disagree so far?
Here's where many of us will part company:
Q3) You see a magician do a killer trick. You have never seen anything like it before. You really want to use it. You ask some people online if they know the trick. Turns out it's an old idea. Is it ok to use it?
A) I believe that magic (art) should be special. As a performer, I spend my life trying to create unique memories for my audiences. Sometimes I do this by creating original pieces. Sometimes I do this by finding pieces that speak to my intent. Always I try to find pieces that are different and not being done by every magician on the planet. (Remember, I believe magic by definition should be special.)
Many magicians spend years seeking out overlooked tricks - diamonds in the rough - and a life time polishing them into brilliant stones. These tricks have been sitting there for anyone to find. But we didn't. They did.
They spent the time, effort, and had the artistic vision to recognize these as something special - and for them they became something special.
Is it right to take that away from them? Is it right to profit off of THEIR work, THEIR research, THEIR vision without their permission?
When you see a magician perform a trick outside of an instructional context, and you take that trick, you are taking their vision.
Is it right to take someone's vision - any part of it - without permission?
Any of you who were alive during the WGM specials saw this play out. There were two magicians who performed tricks that had been around for at least 20 years. No one was doing them, yet both men had turned them into signature effects. The moment these tricks aired on TV, the hyenas pounced. Now, they could have bought these tricks anytime. But they lacked the vision, the artistic sensibility, to recognize them as great. So they didn't. Instead they let someone else do their homework. They let someone else define their vision.
Ethically I find this creepy. Artistically I find this bankrupt.
So, to answer the poster who wondered if we have to ask Dailey for permission - no. Dailey published his trick, and if in your own research you were to find it and see it for the wonderful piece that it is you are more than welcome to perform it.
But, if you come see my act, see me do the trick and THEN go looking for it - you are stealing from me, you are stealing my work, research, and vision. Besides, why not just ASK me? Why be a coward and go behind my back if you truly do not feel there is anything wrong with what you are doing?
Let's put it this way: You find this *****in' trick on a DVD that totally rawks. You spend weeks working on it and it becomes your pet trick. Your friends at school say its the best trick you've ever done and that they've never seen a trick so kewl.
Then, this new kid shows up. He does a few tricks. Buys some stuff from E every now and then but you have way more Guardians than he has Vipers, so it's all cool.
Anyway, he sees you do your best trick. So, he goes to the E forum and asks if anybody knows it. Turns out someone has the same DVD you have. He buys the DVD and starts doing your best trick for all your friends (and you KNOW he doesn't do it as well as you do, you would totally crush him in a battle).
So, does this make you happy?
Brad Henderson
I stopped reading there, as I will read the rest tomorrow. The person he saw perform the effect on the ship did not invent it.
Steven,
I am walking the reader through a series of scenarios moving from (what I hope is) obvious theft to the scenario as the original writer found himself. I hope you take the time to read it. At the very least, I hope it helps you more clearly form your personal ethical stance, regardless of whether or not it coincides with mine.
Brad
I am walking the reader through a series of scenarios moving from (what I hope is) obvious theft to the scenario as the original writer found himself. I hope you take the time to read it. At the very least, I hope it helps you more clearly form your personal ethical stance, regardless of whether or not it coincides with mine.
Brad
This is ridiculous.
I see a performer performing Michael Ammar's his cups and balls routine for the first time, it's the first routine I've ever seen like it. I enjoyed it throughly and as a magician I want to share that "create unique memory" I had when I watched it with my audiences.
I do a little digging and find out there is a DVD by Ammar out there that provides the neccessary information to learn this routine.
You're saying I can't buy this, learn the effect, and perform it for my audiences because some other magician beat me to it?
To quote yourself,
"This idea is sophistry at best and stupidity at worst."
I see a performer performing Michael Ammar's his cups and balls routine for the first time, it's the first routine I've ever seen like it. I enjoyed it throughly and as a magician I want to share that "create unique memory" I had when I watched it with my audiences.
I do a little digging and find out there is a DVD by Ammar out there that provides the neccessary information to learn this routine.
You're saying I can't buy this, learn the effect, and perform it for my audiences because some other magician beat me to it?
To quote yourself,
"This idea is sophistry at best and stupidity at worst."
So you feel it is ok to go to a working performer's show and then go home and copy every trick he or she did as long as you can buy it somewhere?
I suppose the performer has no say in this? You can take from them and they should be happy with it?
If you spent a lifetime finding unique pieces that others have overlooked, and set yourself apart with the quality and uniquness of your material, would you be happy that someone was intending to take your work and copy it?
And why are people so reluctant to take the very simple step of ASKING the person who has inspired you for the information instead of trying to get it behind their back. Everyone has an email or phone number, you know.
Your perspective addresses only your wants. It ignores the person being taken from. When you have something and it gets taken, you will feel differently. Besides, if magic is an art, how will copying someone ever help you find your own voice?
I suppose the performer has no say in this? You can take from them and they should be happy with it?
If you spent a lifetime finding unique pieces that others have overlooked, and set yourself apart with the quality and uniquness of your material, would you be happy that someone was intending to take your work and copy it?
And why are people so reluctant to take the very simple step of ASKING the person who has inspired you for the information instead of trying to get it behind their back. Everyone has an email or phone number, you know.
Your perspective addresses only your wants. It ignores the person being taken from. When you have something and it gets taken, you will feel differently. Besides, if magic is an art, how will copying someone ever help you find your own voice?
Ok Brad, I definitely see where you're coming from. I'm not convinced of your viewpoint in all aspects, however. You have placed a great emphasis on the job of the original performer, their original vision, and this is right.
Firstly, I'd point out that if I went to your show, copied every single trick, and used it (which I agree is wrong), I would not have taken your vision, see I'm a completely different performer to you, and in all honestly, I would do crap with them. I might see your vision, at your show, yes, but I submit that I would not ever be able to take them and take advantage of them. Since I am not you, I would not be able to replicate your vision, nor would I be able to understand it. At best I could take the mechanical workings and I could take a presentation which may nominally suit me. Do I think this is right, no, but I think it'd be wrong for different reasons. I think it would be wrong to simply just take your act, the construction of the act is something I could take, for example. In this case, someone else's vision, and someone else's homework would be worthless to me, however, and worthless to any respectful magician who knows anything about themselves or about performing. Of course, an uncompromisingly unethical person by all standards is a different matter.
Let's focus on something else though, let's say that I asked the magician, and they told me where I could find the effect. Let's say I didn't lift out their entire routine, but they performed one particular effect that appealed to me as one I could develop. I asked them, and it turns out the effect can be found in x book. Are you saying (no judgment, pure question) that the grounds for determining ethics is the performer's agreement - and then it's ok to try and find an effect? I could never copy their performance, I know it wouldn't work for who I am. With that in mind, if I asked for one effect, and the performer had a say - would you consider that ethical?
Firstly, I'd point out that if I went to your show, copied every single trick, and used it (which I agree is wrong), I would not have taken your vision, see I'm a completely different performer to you, and in all honestly, I would do crap with them. I might see your vision, at your show, yes, but I submit that I would not ever be able to take them and take advantage of them. Since I am not you, I would not be able to replicate your vision, nor would I be able to understand it. At best I could take the mechanical workings and I could take a presentation which may nominally suit me. Do I think this is right, no, but I think it'd be wrong for different reasons. I think it would be wrong to simply just take your act, the construction of the act is something I could take, for example. In this case, someone else's vision, and someone else's homework would be worthless to me, however, and worthless to any respectful magician who knows anything about themselves or about performing. Of course, an uncompromisingly unethical person by all standards is a different matter.
Let's focus on something else though, let's say that I asked the magician, and they told me where I could find the effect. Let's say I didn't lift out their entire routine, but they performed one particular effect that appealed to me as one I could develop. I asked them, and it turns out the effect can be found in x book. Are you saying (no judgment, pure question) that the grounds for determining ethics is the performer's agreement - and then it's ok to try and find an effect? I could never copy their performance, I know it wouldn't work for who I am. With that in mind, if I asked for one effect, and the performer had a say - would you consider that ethical?
I agree with Preatoritevong, and im only going to point out that Michael Ammar did not mkae that dvd at gunpoint, ergo - he wants you to use his routine in your won way.
Hi, guys. Thanks for jumping in.
First, to Ammar's DVD. I was the research consultant on his Cups and Balls DVD. While Michael does not mind if people perform his routine as published, his intention in putting together the DVD was to provide building blocks so a thoughtful magician could craft their OWN routine. Sadly, most do not go that far, happy to play monkey see, monkey do.
To the point brought up by praetoritevong: As this hypothetical performer, your theory fails to comfort me. While it is true that you will never be able to replicate that which I do as well as I do it ('I' being any copied magician, not me personally), the fact that someone would TRY to copy me and do a worse job hurts even more. If someone copied my work and did it better than me, at least the integrity of the work is preserved. Instead, what we have are people who clearly have no problem taking the easy way performing something I care about. Do you really think they will come close to doing it justice? Afterall. the very fact they are using my act as their library tells us they aren't too keen on work. I would rather have someone do my material well than to butcher it.
To your question: Yes. In this case, the ethical consideration lies in the motivation behind our desire to perform the trick. If I find a trick via my own efforts and it is MY vision that leads me to want to perform it, as long as I found that trick in an ethical source, there will never be a problem.
But if my motivation stems from someone else's WORK, then the least I can do is ask permission to to use the idea they discovered.
Here is where things get grey for some people: If the performer does a trick that is very much in our consciousness - say a widely marketed effect - then it seems a bit silly to have to ask them for permission. Personally, I still would because if I hadn't bought that trick by now, it is clearly their work that has lead me to want to. I think the case becomes more important when we are dealing with tricks that someone really went out of their way to find.I think that to steal their research from them is wrong. Even if the trick is in print - you didn't know it. For all intents in purposes, in your world, THEY are the person to have created it. You would have maybe never known of the trick's existence without them. So, why would you not seek out their permission - unless you believe that it is ok to take from other performers, right?
As to the notion that taking a little is somehow ok as opposed to taking a lot - it's still taking. If you see a performer do something in a non-instructional context and you want to use it - a line, a trick, whatever - then the easy thing, the right thing to do is ask.
Why are people scared to ask?
Brad
Brad
First, to Ammar's DVD. I was the research consultant on his Cups and Balls DVD. While Michael does not mind if people perform his routine as published, his intention in putting together the DVD was to provide building blocks so a thoughtful magician could craft their OWN routine. Sadly, most do not go that far, happy to play monkey see, monkey do.
To the point brought up by praetoritevong: As this hypothetical performer, your theory fails to comfort me. While it is true that you will never be able to replicate that which I do as well as I do it ('I' being any copied magician, not me personally), the fact that someone would TRY to copy me and do a worse job hurts even more. If someone copied my work and did it better than me, at least the integrity of the work is preserved. Instead, what we have are people who clearly have no problem taking the easy way performing something I care about. Do you really think they will come close to doing it justice? Afterall. the very fact they are using my act as their library tells us they aren't too keen on work. I would rather have someone do my material well than to butcher it.
To your question: Yes. In this case, the ethical consideration lies in the motivation behind our desire to perform the trick. If I find a trick via my own efforts and it is MY vision that leads me to want to perform it, as long as I found that trick in an ethical source, there will never be a problem.
But if my motivation stems from someone else's WORK, then the least I can do is ask permission to to use the idea they discovered.
Here is where things get grey for some people: If the performer does a trick that is very much in our consciousness - say a widely marketed effect - then it seems a bit silly to have to ask them for permission. Personally, I still would because if I hadn't bought that trick by now, it is clearly their work that has lead me to want to. I think the case becomes more important when we are dealing with tricks that someone really went out of their way to find.I think that to steal their research from them is wrong. Even if the trick is in print - you didn't know it. For all intents in purposes, in your world, THEY are the person to have created it. You would have maybe never known of the trick's existence without them. So, why would you not seek out their permission - unless you believe that it is ok to take from other performers, right?
As to the notion that taking a little is somehow ok as opposed to taking a lot - it's still taking. If you see a performer do something in a non-instructional context and you want to use it - a line, a trick, whatever - then the easy thing, the right thing to do is ask.
Why are people scared to ask?
Brad
Brad
Brad,
Yeah, I do see where you're coming from re: my theory and question. Of course the former was purely for argument's sake, but your reasoning behind asking is logical.
Lots of reasons people can be scared to ask, usually due to themselves. But I agree, one should ask.