Firstly, I just wanted to say that likewise, no jabs at you directly are being made, and I post with great respect for you personally.
I'm not being sarcastic, nor am I trying to make gross exaggerations.
For a long time many people have been lamenting the Internet as the death of magic. That's not an exaggeration, that's an argument that I've seen made by many people on various forums, and one I happen to disagree with.
That may be so, but it's not what the people who have posted above have been arguing - again, our arguments are on the scale of one forum, one site, not this overarching idea of "magic". Not various forums, one forum. This is an example of what I meant by exaggeration (again, apart from the last few lines of your first post). Not stretching the facts, but stretching the scale, I don't wish to apply universal arguments inappropriately to a local issue.
I don't believe the Svengali/Thumb Tip example is as extreme as you make it out to be. If mass exposure truly had a large impact on the state of things, then we'd see those repercussions. Despite the fact that for several decades, these have been two of the most highly-exposed items in magic, they're still totally usable, and in a lot of ways unknown to a lot of people.
If you would kindly re-read my post, I agreed with you here. Again, you misunderstand my application of exaggeration. Exaggeration in this scenario is defined by what I see as you referring to the whole of magic constantly, whereas all I am arguing (and again - I have stated several times that I do not disagree with your opinion on many counts) is to do with this site specifically.
The parallel here is that people seem to be feeling that a deck of cards is going to bring a large influx of insincere laypeople here into the forums. I guess ultimately the proof will be in the pudding, but I can't see that happening. There is more of an influx of these types of people after any Blaine special than there will be from these cards being available. I've seen it on multiple forums. A special airs, there's a surge of new people, and then they fade away in a very short amount of time. Do you honestly think that a deck of cards being available in a store to the general public is going to generate the same kind of traffic that Blaine or Angel do?
No, of course not. I daresay that Criss Angel doesn't bring traffic to Theory11 though. As for David Blaine - perhaps with eXile - but many, many sites have far more dedicated sites to these two people, and as a whole you'd be right. As far as how many people they've brought directly to Theory11 (local scale remember), I'd say not really that many. If they searched for it, T11 is very low comparatively on the sites they'd reach. T11 cards, however - and you're right on one thing, the proof shall indeed be in the pudding - however the potential for traffic directed at Theory11 is far greater in my opinion than Blaine or Angel do. Again - not magic in general, but T11.
I can appreciate that you have a passion for the art you love, and the community you've chosen. You obviously took a lot of time in choosing an environment to be a part of, which is more than can be said for most people. And it's fine to want to protect the art and community from the general rabble.
But let's face it, people already know that magic secrets are sold, and a deck of cards being made available is not going to change that. If people want to come here, they will, one way or another.
They will, but only through a process - for the most part, as I said, I feel that T11 is directed at, and consists largely of, non-complete beginners. If people want to come here, they will come here through magic, as it stands. I point to my own experience of only finding this site after around 6 months of wandering in the magic world. This is not the case with the commercial selling of Guardians. However I feel there is an important issue here I will address in my conclusion to this post.
My initial post wasn't directly entirely at you, but more at the knee-jerk reaction expressed by many that this new development will somehow be a downfall for T11 and ruin things. I know from experience that it won't. I've seen those feelings expressed too many times and for too many reasons, and then seen no ill effects from them to believe that the availability of these cards will be anything but good.
Far too many people start to pout when something they like seems like it's going to be made more widely available. My point is, if they had access to it, why shouldn't anyone else? People stating that they don't want these cards in stores is pretty much expressing that emotion.
I agree regarding feelings expressed too quickly. I cite the Smoke and Mirror decks for example as Exhibit A. As for why shouldn't anyone else - see conclusion.
My biggest point is that if people are really concerned with magic in general, or with T11 specifically, there's a lot more they can do than complain about a deck of cards becoming available. They can try to crack down on exposure. They can perfect their performances to generate a feeling of appreciation in their audiences. They can be role models, teachers, and guides here in the forums to any new people who do come in.
With the exception of the exposure point (crack down on exposure? After I finish with that, I'll end famine), I try on every other account. That said, it's nice to have the balance here I referred to in my first post.
Again, I meant no sarcasm in my post (with the exception of the last couple of lines) and do not feel that I really blew anything out of proportion. If anyone wants to be a part of the T11 community, they're no more or less deserving than anyone else. It doesn't matter if they find the site through a Google search, from another forum, or from finding a deck of cards in the store. Everyone who's in the forum now had to find the place one way or another, and nobody lamented their arrival. So why should we feel bad about new blood finding the community just because of their method of discovering it?
I apologise if you misread my intentions. My exaggeration point has been defined in this post, and my sarcasm referred specifically to your last couple of lines.
Put yourself in those shoes. Say that you, as an enthusiast of magic and cards, stumble across this deck at your local Wal-Mart. You check out the website, and find what you've been looking for in an online magic community. There's just as much chance that good can arise from this situation as bad. I've found that most people don't join magic forums to cause problems and be jerks. They join forums because they have a strong enough interest in the field to explore it further. So we have just as much likelihood of adding good members to the forum based on this availability as we do of adding bad ones. So why not focus on the positive?
More people involved in good, constructive magic communities can really do nothing but benefit everyone.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this per se. I have nothing wrong with beginners either. I merely enjoy the presence of more experienced magicians, with the balance as it is. That is all I'm saying, not that anyone else is bad. Maybe this perspective is slightly elitist. But the appeal of this community in my perspective as opposed to the Penguin forums, or the E forums, is exactly this balance - this is the image that T11 created, the "Underground magic and cardistry epicenter" - this is the image that T11 brands proudly at the top of every page, and it is this image that I prefer over other forums'. However, refer to the conclusion.
Anyway, never my intention to stir up trouble, but more to ask for a bit of perspective from those who are having knee-jerk reactions to a problem that's pretty minuscule in the grand scheme of things.
Back to lurking with me...
I welcome your perspective and I do not see it as trouble at all.
Now, the much anticipated (as if) conclusion.
My intention with my first post was not to disagree with you.
My intention with my first post, as with this one, was to point out some errors I thought existed in your argument. Specifically, and mainly, these were the application of universal arguments prevalent to the art of magic towards an issue that was community based. In this sense, I thought you missed the point of what we were arguing and essentially criticising a non-existent perspective - it simply wasn't what we were arguing.
As I have stated many times with you, in the broader context of magic I don't disagree - you are right about the perspectives you criticise. And, as far as T11 the company goes, I agree it's very good for the company and I applaud this action.
My only intent was to consolidate the opinions which have been previously expressed (which I believe manifests itself primarily as my argument regarding balance, why people value T11), and to point out the flaws in your argument, mainly regarding your application of universal arguments (exaggeration of scale), and a few smaller issues (sarcasm, etc.), which in this context were inappropriate and missed the point we were making.
At no time did I intend offense and I hope you understand my perspective in critiquing your argument.
