This Bothered Me Greatly

Sep 25, 2008
22
0
Singapore
That's really depressing to hear that story too..There's once that I performed on the streets to some guys out there with Stigmata, and after the trick was finished, he said he knew what's the secret to the trick as he said that he watched a video before on youtube showing the tutorial for that particular trick..

Youtube might be really killing the Magic from what it is..Sad but True..
 

Michael Kras

{dg} poet laureate / theory11
Sep 12, 2007
1,268
3
Canada
www.magicanada.myfastforum.org
One piece of advice. I take it very personally when some random no-nothing spectator with no edge over me, comes up to me and says, " Hey, I saw that on youtube," or "Hey, you watch youtube tutorials right?" That means you've done something to either push him/her towards remembering something he/she saw on youtube or have not performed someting original/out-of-the-boxish enough to get a complete and genuine reaction. I strive to keep my magic arsenal OLD, and much of my repertoire includes OLD stuff from Vernon and Marlo (both geniuses, if I may say). This so called "OLD" stuff is actually the NEW in magic, or it should be. If you haven't noticed, i'd say the VAST majority of exposed stuff on youtube is modern or something you could DL off a site like DD, T11, Ellusionist, or even Penguin. Thus, performing anything mainstream would lead to a higher chance of a spectator behaving in the ways you described. It happens more often than not...

Anyways, I am a junior in high school and know your situation too well. In fact, mine is worse. My high school is ranked something like top 5 in the nation in terms of academics, and basically everyone here sees through my stuff. I practice for weeks before performing, and yet people will still convince themselves they have reached the correct conclusion. These highly logical "creatures" that roam my halls at school are a bigger problem, and they also act like the kids you described. Anyhow, with about 3x more practice and a change in attitude and repertoire, I was able to overcome this dilema in my life and get on with my magic. If anything, perform for people you don't know. You'd be surprised how much your friends take you for granted because they know you personally =) No offense intended, but it's the sad truth. Friendship isn't a best to have in magic, especially with a spectator. Don't want to give anything into the cause to expose you and your magic.


I too try to do older, most obscure card work. Vernon and Marlo, coincidentally, are also two of my favourites (Vernon especially). No matter how originally presented or creatively adjusted my routines are, a lot of spectators seem to still think they will find the answer on Youtube.

However, as disturbing as this sudden new magic knowledge among laypeople is, I have also been having a little fun with it. I know a lot of obscure card technique sooo when someone tries to use the petty knowlede they think they have, I pull a fast one on them. For example, someone yesterday selected a card, and I lifted up the top portion of the deck as to allow them to return it. However this person thought he could pull a fast one on me and instead of returning the card to the top of the lower packet, he jammed it somwhere near the middle. However, being a quick thinker I immediately loosened my grip on the packet because the person was pushing it in from an akward angle and because of this, the card was automatically angle-jogged at the rear. So I simply tossed the top half on top and while pattering, obtained a break at the angle-jogged card and used a side steal to control it to the top.
 
Jul 29, 2008
31
0
bn

ive been performing for 2 years and i often come across this stuff.
people often say that i learn things off youtube.there was this one time that i was actually challenged to do a charlier cut.the person learned off youtube and could do a charlier and challenged me to do it.i refused to do it but eventually i did it and he claimed it was really easy and did it himself.
yesterday i was bout to perform and after i asked them if i could show then something i brought out a buisness card and was about to perform it.in the middle of my patter the spectator just yelled out *you learned that from criss angel on demand, go away!*(btw i know stigmata v2 shouldnt be a opening effect but i wanted to practice that effect) it seems he learned from criss a center peek or something that lets you peek at the card.i walked away after that after thanking them.
theres always going to be people who think you learn off youtube or something, the thing is to show them that your not by giving them a more entertaining performance.im still working on that part, but thats just my "2cents"
 

Michael Kras

{dg} poet laureate / theory11
Sep 12, 2007
1,268
3
Canada
www.magicanada.myfastforum.org
I dont wish to insult anyone but the simple truth is if this things does happend, your not good enough. You have to think about, what is wrong with my performance and with my magic, not what is wrong with youtube.

The secret is nothing, i have seen some "masters" at work fooling me and everyone around with methods everyone knew about but no one could figure it out. Because they were so entertaining and so smooth with their handelings. Its all about presentation and to make your spectators have a great time.

There is a big difference bettwen showing someone a cool trick, and to show people magic and entertainment.

If your showing someone a card trick, no matter how good it is, it can be the greatest card trick in the world without any good presentation and performance, you are not showing them magic and entertainment, you are showing them a puzzle which your not going to tell them how it works and by peoples nature they will want to figure it out. If your showing them magic with a good entertaining presentation, you are showing them magic and entertainment to make them happy and feel good, thats the goal of magic not to fool people, and they will not care about the method.

A good example of a guy who was a master at routining and presentation was Tommy Wonder even if he uses the most basic sleights you will still get fooled because hes presentation is so great.

Watch his coins across here. It uses the most basic coin sleights, just read the first pages of bobos modern coin magic and you got it but you will still get fooled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdjEphrI43s

Nothing was wrong with my performances and nothing directly related to my magic was the cause of any of my posted stories. The girl who knew about palming, forcing, and controlling merely did a quick google search the night prior to school in an attempt to faze me the next day... luckily I know enough obscure technique to faze HER in return. The other chap simply assumed all magic can be found for free on Youtube... as ignorant as the comment was it really did insult me, as I put lots of work into technique, presentation, and of course my own creative touches.
 

Michael Kras

{dg} poet laureate / theory11
Sep 12, 2007
1,268
3
Canada
www.magicanada.myfastforum.org
I don't think, as several people have mentioned or hinted, that YouTube is the problem.

Now, recently, several people were questioning the usefulness of originality. Well, let your spectator try and find effects like "I Know Kung Fu" or "Ouroboros" on YouTube. Not gonna happen. Just wanted to mention that as an aside.

Michael's second story surely is more alarming, though. Still, it speaks volumes for perception. Stuff like Earnest Earick isn't the type of stuff laymen will have seen tutorials for. Still, something has to be said of your presentation of magic - how you treat magic. Do you treat it as an art?

Put it this way. Art Galleries often have sessions with a featured artist in which questions can be asked. Do you ever hear "So I guess you must spend all your time learning to paint from art magazines huh?" No, of course not. Why? Paintings are appreciated as works of art and they garner instant respect for the painter. Compare to someone who draws a bad pencil-outlined anime picture. I personally could easily picture someone asking "So did you learn that in an anime book or something?"

People should not think your magic is something of a throwaway, half-assed hobby you have because you're bored and don't have friends. People should appreciate your magic for what it is, and what magic is, is beautiful. It should be the type of performance to garner amazement because your handling should be such that they respect it, that they can view magic as how it should be.

Just a thought - and this is not a jab merely at Michael, but general comments as well.

Are you implying I have no life and no friends? NOBODY thinks that of me, at all. There isn nothing about me, my magic, or my performance style that says that either. I try to stay as original as possible. It's all merely just ignorant assumptions, but dangerous ones at that.
 
Jul 7, 2008
52
0
i hav had a situation where i think i was doin a ACR and the kid just said
"O well u just do a double lift"
i had nothing to say at that point really
people usually think its just a dupe but i was like HOLY S**T
youtube is kind of ruining our reputation as magicians and flourishers so idk
it needs to stop
 
Dec 5, 2007
376
0
That's really depressing to hear that story too..There's once that I performed on the streets to some guys out there with Stigmata, and after the trick was finished, he said he knew what's the secret to the trick as he said that he watched a video before on youtube showing the tutorial for that particular trick..

Youtube might be really killing the Magic from what it is..Sad but True..

Youtube is not killing magic, not even close too it. It might kill uncreative magicians but not the creative magicians.

The magic community is growing and will continue to do so and there will probably be more and more magic stores and magic secrets will be revealed. Yes it does suck but what can we do about it? Nothing. So why not try to be creative and come up with your own material? Magicians gets fooled all the time by new material that we see because the secret is not out yet so we dont know how it works.

And still, i never understood why people are so afraid that some people might know some secrets behind magic. If you were pretending to be an almighty wizard with real powers or jesus it might be a problem, but your just an entertainer. And how often does that happend? I got gigs every friday and saturday and have had for almost a year and it has just happend two times and what did i do?

I said, Oh so your into magic and knows some about it? Then i will show you something different that you never seen before and went on with my performance.
 
Sep 17, 2008
195
1
Maryland
Youtube is not killing magic, not even close too it. It might kill uncreative magicians but not the creative magicians.

The magic community is growing and will continue to do so and there will probably be more and more magic stores and magic secrets will be revealed. Yes it does suck but what can we do about it? Nothing. So why not try to be creative and come up with your own material? Magicians gets fooled all the time by new material that we see because the secret is not out yet so we dont know how it works.

And still, i never understood why people are so afraid that some people might know some secrets behind magic. If you were pretending to be an almighty wizard with real powers or jesus it might be a problem, but your just an entertainer. And how often does that happend? I got gigs every friday and saturday and have had for almost a year and it has just happend two times and what did i do?

I said, Oh so your into magic and knows some about it? Then i will show you something different that you never seen before and went on with my performance.


I agree. I think you need to just keep going until you do something that will make them say "Huh, I'm not too sure how you did that one." Even if they are not that impressed, you still get a reaction from them and they may not know how to do that trick.

Now they may still go on to Youtube and try to look it up, but if they do...that means that you fooled them so badly that they had to search for it and find out the secret.

And by the way, Youtube isnt killing magic, your right. People exposing tricks on Youtube are killing magic.
 
May 18, 2008
807
0
Ah, the age old question, "What can we do to stop this?"

I say just wait it out. While a few performances might suffer, I have such a reputation at my school and in my general area that people know me as The Magician. It has only happened about 2 times in my 6 years of performing somone has said, "I'll just look that up on youtube." or knew what I was doing because of the internet.

Most people ask me where I learn the stuff, and I always reply, "I invent a lot of it, and the rest I learn mostly from books."

This turns them off almost instantly. I don't know why, but it does. And if somone says youtube, just say something like, "Oh yes, youtube. If you want to learn how they are done the wrong way, go there. Trust me, if you really want to learn, you have to spend time with books and such."

Except for one guy I met when I was performing. And it was embarrasing cause he could do the snap change better than I could because he learned it on youtube.

Everyone just thought I taught it to him though, so it worked out.
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
Are you implying I have no life and no friends? NOBODY thinks that of me, at all. There isn nothing about me, my magic, or my performance style that says that either. I try to stay as original as possible. It's all merely just ignorant assumptions, but dangerous ones at that.

What?!

Really now, there's no need for that. You've essentially ignored my post, misinterpreted three words (and they weren't even the right words to focus on), grossly exaggerated them and taken offense to them.

I speak of course about perception. At no point did I imply anything about you - and I apologise if you indeed mistook my words. I speak, as I said, of perception. If you did read my entire post - I was merely questioning the scaffolding on which you base your magic - whether or not your presentation treats it well enough as an art. If this presentation is not there, it is easy to deride someone's magic as "tricks they learned off YouTube". I know criticism can be hard to take but please, read my entire post, try and understand why I posted it, instead of jumping up and down at a few words.

I noticed you were very quick to dismiss any notion of examining your own performance, but rather imputing blame upon YouTube. You're distressed that YouTube contains exposure. That YouTube made the spectator say those things - that is at least what it sounds like.

Let me ask you however: Why are you so certain that there's nothing in your presentation that could possible hint that? Do you believe that your presentation is perfect and does not need working on?

If so, I would simply respectfully disagree, and leave it at that.
If you do not truly believe that your presentation is perfect however and cannot possibly be improved in any aspect, why are you so quick to dismiss it as a factor?

If it's not perfect, how can you say simply and dismissively, "Yeah, it wasn't that", unless it's perfect - which it is not?

I remember from one of your videos I watched, that I made the comment that presentation was in fact the major aspect that was lacking. Please don't take anything personally. You posted about a problem, and I have posted an entirely appropriate response attempting to address a possible cause - although it's hard to consider the problem may lay in oneself.

The only dangerous thing is refusing to examine yourself. I wouldn't be too bothered by YouTube.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
May 19, 2008
448
0
manchester
well I once performed for someone who used to do magic, but it was awsome anyway, I was waiting for the bus and messing about with cards and this woman (not a woman really kinda in her 20s) came up and asked me about getting to this school, I tell her what she has to do and she sits and waits for the bus, then I think ill "brake the ice" because It was boring and stuff, so I ask her If she wants to see some magic and shes like "yeah go ahead" so I do some stuff and she tells me about how she used to know some magic, I did here and there and a simple acr, and she was still shocked, said it was really good and everything, she told me how her uncle (suprise suprise) had shown her some card tricks when she was younger.

I thourght it was awsome because she was really nice and she reacted well and was really freindly, and also she wasnt "just" a lay person, now she was kinda part of it, she new some of the same stuff, but she was still suprised and happy that I just done some simple card tricks :)

if someone knows about controlling or whatever just talk to them, maybe see If they wanna be a magician, and you could make some freinds that way...
 

Michael Kras

{dg} poet laureate / theory11
Sep 12, 2007
1,268
3
Canada
www.magicanada.myfastforum.org
What?!

Really now, there's no need for that. You've essentially ignored my post, misinterpreted three words (and they weren't even the right words to focus on), grossly exaggerated them and taken offense to them.

I speak of course about perception. At no point did I imply anything about you - and I apologise if you indeed mistook my words. I speak, as I said, of perception. If you did read my entire post - I was merely questioning the scaffolding on which you base your magic - whether or not your presentation treats it well enough as an art. If this presentation is not there, it is easy to deride someone's magic as "tricks they learned off YouTube". I know criticism can be hard to take but please, read my entire post, try and understand why I posted it, instead of jumping up and down at a few words.

I noticed you were very quick to dismiss any notion of examining your own performance, but rather imputing blame upon YouTube. You're distressed that YouTube contains exposure. That YouTube made the spectator say those things - that is at least what it sounds like.

Let me ask you however: Why are you so certain that there's nothing in your presentation that could possible hint that? Do you believe that your presentation is perfect and does not need working on?

If so, I would simply respectfully disagree, and leave it at that.
If you do not truly believe that your presentation is perfect however and cannot possibly be improved in any aspect, why are you so quick to dismiss it as a factor?

If it's not perfect, how can you say simply and dismissively, "Yeah, it wasn't that", unless it's perfect - which it is not?

I remember from one of your videos I watched, that I made the comment that presentation was in fact the major aspect that was lacking. Please don't take anything personally. You posted about a problem, and I have posted an entirely appropriate response attempting to address a possible cause - although it's hard to consider the problem may lay in oneself.

The only dangerous thing is refusing to examine yourself. I wouldn't be too bothered by YouTube.

I do not refuse to examine myself at all... I work on presentation as much as I work on technique. I examine my technique, presentation, and performing personality greatly, you could say I'm a bit of a perfectionist. Sometimes it is off the cuff and not up to speed but most of my presentation is fully rehearsed. How could my presentation possibly hint towards Youtube tutorials?

I did mistake your words and apologize for coming on strongly.
 
Sep 4, 2007
60
0
The girl who knew about palming, forcing, and controlling merely did a quick google search the night prior to school in an attempt to faze me the next day... luckily I know enough obscure technique to faze HER in return.

Michael, please keep in mind that I'm not out to point fingers at you, only to lend outside interpretation which may lead you to a solution.

I believe the above quote points directly to your problem. The fact that someone actually went to the trouble of trying to faze you only shows their immense immaturity and is all the more reason that you should not perform for that type of group.

Furthermore, I would strongly suggest getting away from performing for your age group. Perform for older people, or younger people, but don't perform for people that are your age. At least until you are out of school and the petty games that make up high school life are over with.

Do not go to the trouble of developing material to counter-faze your difficult patrons. Your only shooting yourself in the foot, and feeding the flame that ignites your frustration. Get away from that wholly. You are working towards being an entertainter. Not a monkey that dances when someone asks you to.

I agree. I think you need to just keep going until you do something that will make them say "Huh, I'm not too sure how you did that one." Even if they are not that impressed, you still get a reaction from them and they may not know how to do that trick.

Now they may still go on to Youtube and try to look it up, but if they do...that means that you fooled them so badly that they had to search for it and find out the secret.

This type of approach is the exact opposite of the attitude you need to take as a performer. This goes for all out there as eventually you will learn the lesson anyway.

Learning material for the sake of proving a "know it all" false is a waste of time and only serves to lower yourself below what you are worth. Think about that. Seriously consider it.

youtube is kind of ruining our reputation as magicians and flourishers so idk
it needs to stop

Not the case by far. There is something out there ruining the reputations of magician's worldwide, and the easiest way to spot it is to look in the mirror. You'll see it clearly once you get it in your sightline. Trust me, I do it everyday.

For further reference to what I am alluding to quite obviously, instead of buying your next trick save the money and go out and buy Ken Weber's Maximum Entertainment. Or a variety of other performance theory books.

Invaluble.

urban
 
May 3, 2008
618
1
When people ask if I learn from youtube or anything like that, I would normally just inform them of how degrading it is to the art. And if the say "I'm going to look on youtube", tell them to read a book. The last thing kids want to do these days is read.
 
Feb 27, 2008
2,342
1
33
Grand prairie TX
Fortunately i havent encountered anyone that has told me they can find a trick on youtube.
I dont do much "commercial" magic. Not that commercial magic isnt good. I love watching it.
I just dont do it.
But what I dont like is when on TV or anywhere else that
magicians have to stop using old methods or that we are being forced to come up with better things to do( in that infamous T.V. show) and it just sickens me.Ok. im exaggerating
But all i can think is "whats with these people?"
The reason we do magic is for them.
To show them that this world isnt solid all the way through. To give them hope.(subconsciously)
And they have the nerve to force magicians to do more?
And i know that this isnt all or most laymen in general.
But those few people just get me frustrated.
 

Michael Kras

{dg} poet laureate / theory11
Sep 12, 2007
1,268
3
Canada
www.magicanada.myfastforum.org
Michael, please keep in mind that I'm not out to point fingers at you, only to lend outside interpretation which may lead you to a solution.

I believe the above quote points directly to your problem. The fact that someone actually went to the trouble of trying to faze you only shows their immense immaturity and is all the more reason that you should not perform for that type of group.

Furthermore, I would strongly suggest getting away from performing for your age group. Perform for older people, or younger people, but don't perform for people that are your age. At least until you are out of school and the petty games that make up high school life are over with.

Do not go to the trouble of developing material to counter-faze your difficult patrons. Your only shooting yourself in the foot, and feeding the flame that ignites your frustration. Get away from that wholly. You are working towards being an entertainter. Not a monkey that dances when someone asks you to.



This type of approach is the exact opposite of the attitude you need to take as a performer. This goes for all out there as eventually you will learn the lesson anyway.

Learning material for the sake of proving a "know it all" false is a waste of time and only serves to lower yourself below what you are worth. Think about that. Seriously consider it.



Not the case by far. There is something out there ruining the reputations of magician's worldwide, and the easiest way to spot it is to look in the mirror. You'll see it clearly once you get it in your sightline. Trust me, I do it everyday.

For further reference to what I am alluding to quite obviously, instead of buying your next trick save the money and go out and buy Ken Weber's Maximum Entertainment. Or a variety of other performance theory books.

Invaluble.

urban

I completely agree with you... HOWEVER just to clarify this, I did not say I have been running around finding other ways to counter-faze knowledgable spectators, I already know these techniques from my studies. Learning from Tamariz and Vernon have been amazing inspirations for this sort of working... off the cuff thinking when something doesn't go as planned. I've always got a back-up, ones that faze them and make them think I'm God :).

I had a lot of fun with that once.. using numerous methods to obtain knowledge of a selected card for a spectator who simply wanted to see that. I started off with a classic force, and simply proceeded to read her mind and reveal her selection's identity. She was so impressed she asked me to do it again... I obliged, but this time she said that SHE wanted to take the deck and remove a random card. I shrugged and gave her the deck. She removed a card, and gave the deck back to me. After she memorized her free selection, she gave it back to me and I did a speical bullet-proof peek from Ernest Earick's book (the name and creator escape me...). Returning the card to the deck I again proceeded to mysteriously identify her free selection.

She challenged me again... one more time, but this time she did not give back the deck. I was, however, able to spot a key on the bottom of the deck, so I simply memorized it and had her place her card on top of the deck and cut it into the middle. She then had the freedom to shuffle if she so desired. After she was done., I asked her to place the deck on the table and spread it to make sure her selection was indeed now randomly placed in the deck. Of course, I spotted my key and memorized her card. I then had her square the cards, put them face down, and table them. To create a time lapse I recapped the previous procedures, then proceeded to read her mind a third time. She was baffled, and convinced.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Aug 31, 2007
98
0
Read Strong Magic by Ortiz and you'll understand more of the psychology of magic. Remember to never challenge your audience.. you're not there to make them look like a dumbass, you're there to entertain.

If you challenge someone they will fight back.

Sypris
 
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