January 2009 :: From One Generation To Another

[clllllust]

There is many things that I think of when I hear "stereotypes in magic". The age gap and what both sides think of has always been one of those, and one I usually astray from. Why? I don't like talking about it because I feel like I'm not educated on both sides of the discussion to fully express my point.

Only reason why I'm talking about it now is I'd rather share what I have learned. To demonstrate how the older generation really does teach us, and vice versa. For as long as I had known DVD's and Instant Downloads were the way of magic. I thought books were overrated and why learn a side-jog when I can make a quarter freeze?

I started talking to the magician at my local magic shop and talked to him about how I was fairly new and owned a bunch of DVD's, and he said why not any books? He was able to explain just how important knowing the history of magic is and the original material which today's stems from. It isn't as flashy, or visual, but it is still magic. You shouldn't buy racing wheels and racing seats and a hi-powered engine if you don't know how to drive.

The fact he took the time and explained this to me has changed my magic more than ever. I barely bought any DVD's after that, on researched magic history, and card magic and different approaches to it. He could've simply taken me as a ignorant teenager, but he didn't and taught me so much in his little talk I can't begin to describe.

So, if you really want to make your spectators phone ringtone change that is fine. But, I highly recommend picking up that copy of Erdnase, bust your knuckles, talk to some magicians and see what they know and can tell you and simply ignore stereotypes. Old-school magic, new school magic, it really shouldn't matter, you should want to perform MAGIC, simple as that.

-RA69

 

[Jessb1]

I think that part of the divide has to do with where the magic is performed and each generations idea of audience connection.

The older magicians I have met beleive in a participation of the audience and not necessarily audience involvement. What I mean by participation is having someone come on stage and they build a connection with that one person and the rest of the audience sees the character of the magician and therefore connects with him more.

The newer magicians seem to do the street magic thing and try to connect directly with their audience. This younger generation views this connection as more personal and allows them to connect with each spectator.

I think the divide is in the difference of opinion of each generations approach. The older generation sees the the new style as for newbs and weak. The young view the old way as impersonal and outdated. The new generation has this feeling of breaking the mold of suits and tophats. I personally have had people ask me if I did, in all seriousness, sawing a lady in half. The old stereotype of magicians pulling rabbits out of hats is still there.

The new generation is like a teen rebeling and trying to get out of the shadow of his parents.

The old generation sees their ways dying with each "street" performance. The old ways (no pun intended) are disappearing. History is being lost with the old guys. No one today could possibly understand what the old days were like. Not even modern stage performers.

I think the best possibility for the continuation of this art is the combining or at least understanding between the two sides.

 

[RikAllen]

Older magicians often think that all younger magicians are poorly read, uncaring of history in magic, and lacking in technical ability.

The question - this month's Cerca Trova topic - is what can the older generation of magicians learn from the younger generation - and what can the younger generation learn from the older?

Further, how has this gap affected you personally - and what do you think can be done to improve this dynamic now and in the future?

dan.white

I edited the quote down.

Older magicians thinking younger magicians are poorly read has a lot of truth in it. Most younger magicians who are just starting out or have no plans to take their magic foward are poorly read. They buy a dvd with a few tricks, ask for advice, communities suggest 5 books or 1 dvd and they get the dvd. It's a sad truth.

Dan and Dave have done a great service by adding some of the classic magic texts to their store. It brings books out into the open and allows new magicians who think the Bucks are cool to see what their influences are, where their magic comes from, and how they started out.

What can magicians teach each other?

The younger generation has a lot of creativity. Some of the self-created effects and flourishes coming from younger magicians is amazing. Bringing ideas to the forefront is probably the best thing anyone can do. The problem comes when a new magician wants to do something but doesn't know how.

The older generation, and some of the new generation who love magic history, can give sources or ideas on how something can be done. Experience leads into a new way of thinking. Every new effect I buy gives me something. Even if an effect doesn't fit my style or routines I've seen months to years of thought being put into one effect. The process it took to create it along with the finished product.

When I need a sleight for an effect I can spend years looking for it, or ask someone who has already spent 20 years in the industry to help.

The younger generation is always in better position than the previous one. With every book, sleight and dvd put out we have more material to learn from. Picking out what to learn is almost overwhelming nowadays. The biggest problem with that is the younger generation doesn't know where to start, what books to try, or even how to adapt effects if they don't like part of it.

The older generation, a lot of times...from what I read, get obsessed with their ways. I don't know how true this is, but most people complain about older magicians saying their way is right and you should learn this way and do this first. Again, I've never run into this, but if it's true it is a big problem.


Improving on the current situation.

Everyone needs to level with each other. Younger magicians need to aknowledge the older magicians style. Older magicians need to stop criticizing and start helping 'lost' magicians. Don't tell them their doing something wrong, offer to help them do it better.

Ricky Jay performs masterful performaces in a totally unique way. Rather, they seem unique because he's the only one who does them today. He performs effects the way you hear stories about, the way older books are written and how he wants them to be done.

On the other hand David Blaine does quick, visual and down right impossible magic. He uses a few words, a few props (cards, coins etc), and amazes almost everyone he comes in contact with.

Hmm. If I had to summerize everything.

Magicians of all ages need to start listening to each other. The gap is in communication. Communication of ideas, effects, and ways to go approach magic. If everyone could start collaberating instead of attacking each other then this whole problem would solve itself.

In fact, if everyone everywhere started collaberation and listening instead of judging and attacking...the worlds problems would solve themselves...
Damn the idealist in me.


-Rik

 

[OneCardWonder]

I think its telling that the most read books are still Erdnase, and a lot of people's favorite slight is the Cardini change, lol. If you read Huggard's work you find a lot of the basis for the flourishes that are now in vogue in cardistry.

The fact is, magic has come a long way since then, but because it's stood on those shoulders. Older magicians have years of performance experience and understandably want their dues for that time and practice. I think the problem is that people see Blaine on TV and think they can grab a pack of cards, do some tricks, and probably lose interest in a few years. There's a real beauty in magic and the ideas behind it. I guess everyone wants to see that people get that.

Ironically enough I think threads like this one highlight a problem that may exist in general and only in general, and may not be true all the time. (Or indeed as much of the time as people think.) If there is a divide due to generation or age it is no bigger than any generational divide in any section of society, so lets not turn it into an issue.

my 2 cents.

 

[Lex]

With respect to Dan White for bringing up the topic, I think I slice the apple a little differently.

The more time I spend in the magic community, the less I think the divide is between "old" and "new"/"young" and the more I think it is just a function of subcultures within a larger subculture. The categories are just not that clear--and that, in turn, is a partial answer to Jon Raiker's question about what we can do.

To continue picking on Chris Kenner--is he "old" or "new"? He may be chronologically older, but to me his ideas are as novel as Andrei Jikh's. Are the Bucks "old" or "new"? They are chronologically younger, but they were self-taught from Erdnase. Many of their ideas are classic tricks to which they have added their own flair.

"Aha," you might say, "that flair is what makes them 'new'!"

I don't really buy that: that flair is what makes them "the Bucks." It's a manifestation of their individual style. Likewise, some people may find Kenner's style "old," but I would suggest that nothing inherent in that style is all that "old": you will find it in magicians both older and younger. For example, I find Daniel Madison and Wayne Houchin uncategorizable on this "old"/"new" axis, even when I suspend my disagreement with it.

What we're seeing is a manifestation of different individual styles. People gravitate toward one they like, or a few, and pick up elements of it. Part of that has to do with how they, individually, perform magic: Do they do it for pay? On a stage? Just for fun? Just for a camera? Do they enjoy flourishing? Is it incorporated into their magic, or something separate?

But that explains why this can be such a touchy subject: people voluntarily take on the label "old" or "new" and, effectively, fight for it. They want to identify as this or that, as a way of belonging. It's like "underground," "old school," or "alternative."

So what I think Dan has put his finger on is not a divide between "old" and "new" or "young," but between people who identify as "old" and those who identify as "young."

But in describing it, a way forward is already more apparent. Not everyone is going to manifest the same style, no matter how hard anyone tries. Do a search on "we should" in the forums: the phrase has been used too many times to be listed. In an important sense, there is no "we": there is no formal, governed magical community that can take such collective action.

But in a more important sense, there is still a community. It is made up of individuals with different inclinations, preferences, and styles. Frankly, none of it is new ("What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."--Ecclesiastes 1:9), but people will apply different labels to different combinations of those styles.

And that's a good thing. Let Kenner be Kenner and Buck be Buck. We all have something to learn from each other, because there is always someone out there better than each of us at a given trick, technique, or concept. The way forward, I think, is not to let labels get in the way of that learning, regardless of what they are, who we are, or who we are interacting with.

 

[Morgan B]

I am not sure if it is an "age" thing, as much as it is an appraoch or generational thing. For example, I know a few 15 year olds that study magic like I have...and have done well in close up - however, I know some 15 year olds that are looking for short cuts. Much as in life appraoch, regardless of age - there are people that do it the right way, and people that look for the easy paths. I will call the latter "new" and the former "old" when discussing.


I think there used to be a "respect your elders" concept in play in previous years, because the actual "older" magician had more "TIME IN" - you know, has been in magic longer, so was exposed to magic longer, read more, seen more, done more - because they had more time to do so. You had to earn his "respect" to even think about learning it or asking to learn it, as you knew the effort they put into it...or, you had to put the work in yourself.

With the change in technology - a young guy can come along and see something and download it that day. He doesn't respect the effect, because they are in constant flow...whatever they want, they can get their hands on.

Information is not the issue - but how that information is learnt by "new" magicians. "Older" magicians have studied magic, have taken less short cuts.

I see a lack of respect by the "new" magicians, because in their minds, they have achieved what the "older" magician has - they are doing tricks, getting reatcions, and are considered by their peer group as "talented". However, they ignore effect names, sleight names, don't understand any magic theory...all this knowledge...but NO learning, no concepts are grasped.

It would be like being a doctor, who was able to do any surgiery...but never knew when the right time to use them was. Seems ridiculous, but this is the kind of thing that I see, metaphorically, on this site...and with "youth" in magic.

The real kicker!!! You try to help these youth, and they don't want to change - they want to maintain the status quo, because in their minds....I AM GETTING REACTIONS, why bother changing anything...the changes don't come easy, and it is too much effort.

Sigh...and magic grows weaker - not because of an age...but the attitude of the here and now generation that wants to accomplish everything yesterday.

I bet if we lined up every member of this site - less than 1% could do ONE effect flawlessly and make it memorable or entertaining.

Who cares - well - for most - you will be the FIRST experience people have with LIVE magic...so 99% of this forum can't leave a perfect example of our craft?

SEE THE PROBLEM?

Moreover, the same percentage can't discuss magic or take time to critically think about magic on a higher level....SEE THE RELATED PROBLEM?

If you removed the chip from your shoulder, and took time to learn from people that HAVE been doing it longer - perhaps you could grow and think of magic differently...so your audiences can experience better magic.

SEE THE SOLUTION?

I have been in magic for over 10 years - and still am willing to listen and learn from all those that do it - I have the ability to realize what will and won't work - as will you with time - but when I was knew...who didn't know more than me?

What is new?

Well...if I am still opening my mind to read your words...and I have been in magic, studying with 100's of books in my collection, videos, lecture notes...and personal time with many greats of magic...and a successful professional...and am STILL trying to learn....

LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY - I was at a lecture where you had to write what you thought you were on a scale of 1 - 10...10 being great. The lecture was a Darwin Ortiz lecture...he wrote 9...what would you have wrote knowing that?

Even someone like Darwin Ortiz that can school many of you in magic...and if you have read his books, perhaps has - considers himself less than perfect on his quest of knowledge.

Humble pie anyone?

 

[Steerpike]

Here's something to consider.

The arrogance of a new generation want instant gratification and thus cast away the learning process.

The older generation have grown complacent and forgotten their early days. They're doing an incredibly poor job passing the torch.

Is it just possible that both sides are screwing this up?

 

[TheKingOfCards]

If Ortiz is a 9, then I'd be a three. I've been religiously studying magic for two years now, and I just turned seventeen. I don't think it's so much of an age thing as it is a "realization" and taking things for granted. If the learners like us somehow put a positive light on the way we learn and study theory, etc., then I'm sure we could start to attract more individuals who are willing to learn correctly and not instantly. After all, change cannot be made so quickly, and I'd be more than happy as an individual to help out one person at a time. Anything is progress.

 

[KeenanG]

There is a divide in magic - there is a separation - between the older generation of magicians and the younger generation of magicians. In magic, it's destructive to the mutual goal of advancing the artform we all know and love. It is not ubiquitous, but it is there. theory11 has done wonders working to bridge it - by bringing those from all sides of the industry together in one place, from Chris Kenner to Jason England to Daniel Madison to myself. But there are miles to travel before we have the unity that this industry needs.

Oftentimes, this divide manifests itself in disrespect or condescension from both sides towards eachother. Older magicians often think that all younger magicians are poorly read, uncaring of history in magic, and lacking in technical ability. Younger magicians often think that the older generation of magicians have little to offer them, as their styles clash and opinions collide. Both opinions are wrong, as it is unfair to stereotype anyone and certainly counterproductive to do what we need - to work together to take this art to the next level.

In working together and respecting eachother, in a more unified industry, greater advancement can arise. The question - this month's Cerca Trova topic - is what can the older generation of magicians learn from the younger generation - and what can the younger generation learn from the older? Further, how has this gap affected you personally - and what do you think can be done to improve this dynamic now and in the future? Let me know your thoughts.

dan.white

What most don't understand is that ALL magicians have something that they can teach. The WORST "magicians" teach all of us what not to do in our performances. We can see what not to do and how not to do it.

As a "younger" magician (age wise at least, haha) I know that I can learn the best things to learn from the "older" magicians. I don't like to classify people as young and old, just because that means absolutely nothing. But, that isn't the subject.
The younger ones need to understand that respect will get you so far in any bussiness. You give respect, you will give it back. If you don't care, than they won't care about you. If you show some respect and some love for what you will do, others will see it and want to teach you. This is something you learn from spending hours in a Brick and Mortar shop, and conventions. Hell, look at Josh Jay. I heard a story from Steve Johnson (Grand Illusions) That Josh (in his twenties) floored J.C. Wagner with J.C's OWN EFFECT. Anyone who knows of J.C. should know how big of a deal this is haha.

Basically, my thoughts are that all magicians can learn from each other, no matter the age. Good or bad, our minds should be open to learn from anyone.

Keenan

 

[Vinsanity]

I have a friend and his dad is a 50 year old magician. He sometimes teaches me things but his perspective of magic is totally different then mine. He always has a lot of patter and stories behind every trick and tells me I should do the same. So I think that they can learn from younger magicians that you don't have to wear a suit and have long stories for everything, because the perception of magic is changing.................but on the other hand...............

They are so many hidden methods from years back that we can learn from the older magicians. (example: Micheal Ammar's method for distortion) Plus they do have more experience and could teach ways in the art of performing and magic that only comes from long years of experience.

 

[jakobe96]

First off I would like to say this has been spoken of countless times and hopefully this subject is taken seriously enough to save this art. Since Im right smack in the middle of old and new I have a tendency to respect both on many levels but at the same time it's hard to take someone with a know it all persona seriously in which most cases older magicians seem to have. Young vs. Old huh I think mainly the younger community wants to bring new innovative ideas into magic and they feel the older community may not be open minded to except their ideas which is sad due to the fact these guys are the magicians of tommorrow. The older community to me seems to feel the younger don't take the time to research and respect the past. We have to start respecting each other or magic will just become a con art and respected by few.

Shane B.

your avatar in another diminution?

 

[housefull]

Thanks for sharing:The younger generation has been deprived of the value of searching for gold. Some of today's hardest hitting DVD releases have already been published in some of the community's oldest-written books. I can't tell you how many times I've been fooled (outrageously dumbfounded) by a crusty old man with a deck of cards. There is so, so much great magic written in books that haven't seen the light of day in ages because the majority of younger magicians have the attention span of a 2-year-old and don't want to put in the effort to read. The younger generation is spoonfed its knowledge, and I think it's resulting in everyone doing the same stuff. True originality and artistic freedom is diminishing fast whereas the older generation was filled with creative heroes whose names still live strong through today.

 

[Jonivalidee]

Protoculture , the passing of learned behaviors from one generation to another in non-human primates. but referring to different things.

thanks for sharing.

prague castle, tour & travel

 

[TylerRouss]

I believe the problem primarily arises from the enormous changes that have occurred in performance style. Grand illusions and "heavy" props/performances are getting less and less popular, while close up and street magic is on the rise. The people who identify themselves with one form can really have feelings of disgust toward the other, as they see the other form as being the source of a bad reputation for magic. I'll repeat that, as it's my main point; "They see the other form as being the source of a bad reputation for magic."

Complaints about a lack of knowledge, respect for history, and character from younger magicians are the same as complaints about the "paternal" and "out of date" nature of older magicians. They are the same in that they are both only manifestations of a deeper affront felt by both sides. This affront, is on the public image of magic. I believe that the source of discord between the different subcultures of magic lies in the beliefs held by one generation that the other generation has a malignant effect on the public image of magic. This discord will always exist, so long as this relationship between magicians and the public exists. The last generation of magicians performed for an audience craving grand illusions. Stage shows (of that period) were new, modern performances that people did not know what to expect or what to believe in. Beyond the lack of knowledge about magic, there was also a nearly infinitely different set of social strictures. Talk to someone today about eugenics (or maybe this would be for two generations back), and watch the anger spout. Talk to someone then about organics, and see the confusion on their face. What is socially normal and acceptable, as well as what knowledge and opinion the general public has about magic, fundamentally changes from one generation to the next. Therefore, the relationship between the public and the performer is also constantly evolving. This lets us in on two wonderful secrets. One, both generations are correct. Literally. "New" magic does not work nearly as well as "old" magic for performing. Old magic is the better form. Oh, but don't forget, "old" magic also does not work nearly as well as "new" magic for performing. New magic is better than old magic. These statements are not circular, and are not hypocritical. It all just depends upon your audience. The second secret, is that the solution to this "division" in the magic community does not lie in understanding each other, quite so much as it lies in understanding the relationship that the entire magic community has with the public. Once that is understood, any misunderstandings between magicians should be solved tangentially.

Thanks a lot to anyone who reads my rants!

Tyler