Why are we clones?

I have noticed over the few days that everyone here seems to be the same. Black nail polish, Criss Angel want to be video editing tricks that can't be performed with me standing there live. XCM "flourish me this flourish me that." WHY do people want to imitate someone else? Is it because the person performing is "cool", or is it because it looks cool?

You know I have been looking through flourishing videos in the media section and came across a very fun video to watch. It was the one where he uses a knife, I know you know you have seen it or have seen it hinted on. Now I was enjoying the afterglow of this video but then was actually pretty upset to see a thread asking if there was a dvd or somewhere that taught how to do the manipulations.

I understand we as people are very curious but really, why do you want to learn something that someone is already using? Be the next best thing take a step up from conformity and show the non conformist that I know is inside of you all.

my original question still stays,

Why do people feel the need to imitate each other? I don't only mean tricks flourishing, but also appearance.

I am asking the entire forum these questions. Please reply with an answer. A good one, I am curious George and I want to know.
 
Jul 10, 2008
122
0
Nexus,
Although I agree with most of what you have said I will say this as I have stated multiple times here at T11. Imitation is a form of flattery for one. And two, it is also a part of development. It helps to create your own style. It influences you and you can pick parts of the people that you imitate to create your character, your performance style.

What I don't like are the people who pick and bash other users for imitating when they themselves do the same. Ridiculous claims that anyone who uses black and white is a DM clone, you've read them right? Everyone here has used something that someone else has done before yet some are quick to slam someone for doing the same all the while claiming that they themselves are clever enough to have been doing this before we had seen it anywhere else.

I believe imitation is necessary for some, and they should not hide this fact. If you are inspired by someone and you imitate them it's ok as long as you are aware and truly respect them enough to credit them for the inspiration. But, as I have seen, again here on T11, that some go so far as to disrespect the ones who they are inspired by because that artist may not be the most popular. That, to me, is a bigger travesty than imitating.

By the way, I enjoy the vids you've posted thus far. Keep up the good work. Peace

John
 
Now I was enjoying the afterglow of this video but then was actually pretty upset to see a thread asking if there was a dvd or somewhere that taught how to do the manipulations.

I understand we as people are very curious but really, why do you want to learn something that someone is already using? Be the next best thing take a step up from conformity and show the non conformist that I know is inside of you all.


I was quite interested in this until the above quote made an appearance in your post, and you'll have to forgive me here for probably coming across a trifle harsh, but.....what??


If you really mean and believe the statement above then you will freely admit to never having bought any magic DVD or prop. If you can't do that, then I suggest you edit your post.

Learning from others is the only way to learn to be yourself.


Anyone who says different is a liar.




Rabid Out
 
Jan 31, 2008
363
0
Location: Location
If you really mean and believe the statement above then you will freely admit to never having bought any magic DVD or prop. If you can't do that, then I suggest you edit your post.

Quite true Rabid.

Last time I referred to certain people as klones, they went to a corner, cried, then made a angry post. ;)
 
Feb 27, 2008
2,342
1
33
Grand prairie TX
I have noticed over the few days that everyone here seems to be the same. Black nail polish, Criss Angel want to be video editing tricks that can't be performed with me standing there live. XCM "flourish me this flourish me that." WHY do people want to imitate someone else? Is it because the person performing is "cool", or is it because it looks cool?

You know I have been looking through flourishing videos in the media section and came across a very fun video to watch. It was the one where he uses a knife, I know you know you have seen it or have seen it hinted on. Now I was enjoying the afterglow of this video but then was actually pretty upset to see a thread asking if there was a dvd or somewhere that taught how to do the manipulations.

I understand we as people are very curious but really, why do you want to learn something that someone is already using? Be the next best thing take a step up from conformity and show the non conformist that I know is inside of you all.

my original question still stays,

Why do people feel the need to imitate each other? I don't only mean tricks flourishing, but also appearance.

I am asking the entire forum these questions. Please reply with an answer. A good one, I am curious George and I want to know.

I have rarely seen performers with black nail polish or being gothed up.
Except Dee but thats him.Thats what he wants to be.
Other people dress that way not because of criss angel but because they love the heavy metal/hardcore scene/look.That doesnt necessarily mean they are imitating each other.
 
Jan 1, 2009
2,241
3
Back in Time
I have noticed over the few days that everyone here seems to be the same. Black nail polish, Criss Angel want to be video editing tricks that can't be performed with me standing there live. XCM "flourish me this flourish me that." WHY do people want to imitate someone else? Is it because the person performing is "cool", or is it because it looks cool?

You know I have been looking through flourishing videos in the media section and came across a very fun video to watch. It was the one where he uses a knife, I know you know you have seen it or have seen it hinted on. Now I was enjoying the afterglow of this video but then was actually pretty upset to see a thread asking if there was a dvd or somewhere that taught how to do the manipulations.

I understand we as people are very curious but really, why do you want to learn something that someone is already using? Be the next best thing take a step up from conformity and show the non conformist that I know is inside of you all.

my original question still stays,

Why do people feel the need to imitate each other? I don't only mean tricks flourishing, but also appearance.

I am asking the entire forum these questions. Please reply with an answer. A good one, I am curious George and I want to know.

Whats wrong with using other peoples effects. David Blaine does it. David Copperfield does it too. A lot of the top guys use it. What would make you a clone is if you copied all their words and everything. Tho that's what beginners do and then has you go on performing for awhile, you get the idea of who YOU are and adapt the tricks and patter your own style.
 
Sep 1, 2007
1,395
8
37
Belgrade, Serbia
So to actually answer your question...

I think people do it, because it is a safe route. They have seen it work. They are afraid to be themselves, because they are not certain if their character is good enough, so they pick the one that already is...
 
Sep 3, 2007
2,562
0
Europe
I know I'm going to get bashed and flamed and called an idiot for this, but here it is:

I personally don't see anything wrong with borrowing patter from other people. If it works, why shouldn't you use it? To quote Tyler Wilson from his book "Dominatricks":

"Even if someone were to recite my presentation word-for-word during their performance, they would no doubt sound completely different than I would. I believe that's where the majority of hostility comes from the regarding the video vs. book debate when students are being labeled clones. It's not that they're saying the same words; it's that they're saying the same words in the same way, and, in certain cases, even adopting the same mannerisms. Books have a tendency to prevent part of this issue, although whether or not that's a good thing is up to the individual. If anyone is planning on stripping the routines in this book and incorporating all new presentations, I'll send mucho respect their way. Mayne of the handlings were developed along side the presentations, so they're very much intertwined, and, I would imagine, somewhat difficult to separate. I would love to see what people do with these routines."

I completely agree with him on this one. For Thread, I borrowed Wayne's basic patter idea (about being dared to do it, but I changed it to a birthday party when I was about 10). It's not exactly the same as Wayne's, but the same basic idea is there. And guess what? Still gets insane reactions. Why? Because I use my personality in this, not Wayne's. I can't perform it exactly like he does- it wouldn't be me.

So to sum things up real quick, I don't think there's anything wrong with using the same patter or same routines as more well known magicians, as long as it's your personality. Your audience doesn't and won't care, nor will they ever know. People make a huge deal about using your own brand spankin' new patter, but in all honesty- it doesn't matter.
 
Oct 14, 2008
75
0
Dog River
I know I'm going to get bashed and flamed and called an idiot for this, but here it is:

I personally don't see anything wrong with borrowing patter from other people. If it works, why shouldn't you use it? To quote Tyler Wilson from his book "Dominatricks":

"Even if someone were to recite my presentation word-for-word during their performance, they would no doubt sound completely different than I would. I believe that's where the majority of hostility comes from the regarding the video vs. book debate when students are being labeled clones. It's not that they're saying the same words; it's that they're saying the same words in the same way, and, in certain cases, even adopting the same mannerisms. Books have a tendency to prevent part of this issue, although whether or not that's a good thing is up to the individual. If anyone is planning on stripping the routines in this book and incorporating all new presentations, I'll send mucho respect their way. Mayne of the handlings were developed along side the presentations, so they're very much intertwined, and, I would imagine, somewhat difficult to separate. I would love to see what people do with these routines."

I completely agree with him on this one. For Thread, I borrowed Wayne's basic patter idea (about being dared to do it, but I changed it to a birthday party when I was about 10). It's not exactly the same as Wayne's, but the same basic idea is there. And guess what? Still gets insane reactions. Why? Because I use my personality in this, not Wayne's. I can't perform it exactly like he does- it wouldn't be me.

So to sum things up real quick, I don't think there's anything wrong with using the same patter or same routines as more well known magicians, as long as it's your personality. Your audience doesn't and won't care, nor will they ever know. People make a huge deal about using your own brand spankin' new patter, but in all honesty- it doesn't matter.

I agree completely.
 
Oct 24, 2008
244
0
Savannah, GA
imitation is the best flatery..
something like this

You have no idea what's going on, do you? You're just posting that for fun. "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" has nothing to do with motivation: we don't copy someone to make them feel good. We do it for our own selfish reasons.

And two, it is also a part of development. It helps to create your own style. It influences you and you can pick parts of the people that you imitate to create your character, your performance style.

This is true. But is that always the case? When everyone around you is imitating the same style? I think it speaks more of peer pressure, lack of creativity, and following trends, in such an instance. Sometimes, you're copying just because you think something's really cool, with no intention of going anywhere progressive with it.

You find someone you like, you borrow bits and pieces, and you expand and create yourself. That's imitation leading to development. There's also imitation leading to puttering out to nothing, to a static state that's boring, doesn't challenge you or your audience, and doesn't distinguish you from everyone else that's been copying the same style for the past five years.

And then...

I think people do it, because it is a safe route. They have seen it work. They are afraid to be themselves, because they are not certain if their character is good enough, so they pick the one that already is...

Some people just aren't interesting. Some people can't write or script themselves. Flash over substance. Impressive over engaging.

The same way you sometimes get the feeling that there's so many card tricks out there because it's a simple market to design for. Toss a few flourishes, a new revelation, and some sleights on a DVD and you'll make a bundle. It's tried and true, and it works, because cards are just everywhere. They're safe to fall back on - an endless supply of material with easy patter and impressive, show-offey handling.

Whats wrong with using other peoples effects. David Blaine does it. David Copperfield does it too. A lot of the top guys use it.

We have a weird art. Here, it's perfectly acceptable to buy someone else's material and creativity and show it off. A lot of other arts shun this idea - if you just drew your own Van Gogh, the same thing with a few changes, you probably wouldn't be praised for it. I'm speaking for tricks here and not presentation - copy a presentation down pat, and you're scoffed at (like the imitators the thread discusses). In that regard, the tricks are simply tools and techniques to convey a true display of the self.

But I wonder, if everyone were creative enough to make their own tricks constantly, and we didn't have an art based on marketing our ideas, would borrowing others' material also be scoffed at the same way? If the creation of the effect weighed the same as the presentation of it?
 
Oct 24, 2008
244
0
Savannah, GA
So to sum things up real quick, I don't think there's anything wrong with using the same patter or same routines as more well known magicians, as long as it's your personality.

How about this: you've got The Who, and then you've got a The Who cover band. Who gets more respect? Not attention, not fame, but respect? Do you see the cover band as genuine artists, or do you see them as entertainment at a social event?

I guess if you're just turning a buck at a party or something, sure. But in trying to display artistic merit, then you're copying someone else's hard work.

Your audience doesn't and won't care, nor will they ever know.

That's only because of the low level of appreciation or interest in magic among the rest of the populace. If it were as complex and celebrated as other arts, it would matter. If it were seen as an art to anyone besides us.

People make a huge deal about using your own brand spankin' new patter, but in all honesty- it doesn't matter.

Not to you, perhaps.
 
Dec 10, 2007
627
0
Texas
Flourishing-wise, I've seen a bunch.
I'm not gonna lie...
Half of you flourishers are talking like you don't do this.
And trust me. You can't back it up.

Imitation has pissed me off so much.
 
Sep 3, 2007
2,562
0
Europe
How about this: you've got The Who, and then you've got a The Who cover band. Who gets more respect? Not attention, not fame, but respect? Do you see the cover band as genuine artists, or do you see them as entertainment at a social event?

I guess if you're just turning a buck at a party or something, sure. But in trying to display artistic merit, then you're copying someone else's hard work.



That's only because of the low level of appreciation or interest in magic among the rest of the populace. If it were as complex and celebrated as other arts, it would matter. If it were seen as an art to anyone besides us.



Not to you, perhaps.

Very good points, and I do agree to a certain extent. Don't get me wrong, I like to use my own patter, but when I read or see some that I really like, every once in a while I'll take that basic idea and make it my own. Again, pretty much all of my effects are all me, but there are a few exceptions, and I'm ok with that... for now, at least.
 
Being myself.

If you really mean and believe the statement above then you will freely admit to never having bought any magic DVD or prop. If you can't do that, then I suggest you edit your post.

Learning from others is the only way to learn to be yourself.

Look I am not saying I have not bought a dvd on magic, I have bought tricks with an accompanying dvds. But for the first 11 years of me performing magic all the tricks I performed where from these three books. Mark Wilson's complete course in magic, JB Bobo Modern Coin Magic, and Royal Road to Card Magic. That is it, it is fair to say that yes I have broken from conformity through those years without the help of other magicians interacting with me or vice versa. Now with the help of the internet I have access to an infinite amount of knowledge on magic. But you know what? I do something other people neglect to do, I make an effect my own. That is a key standard when I perform magic, I never copy paste patter, I never do the same series of moves taught on a dvd unless it has to be done that way.

Learning from others happens anyway, that is the only way humans can function properly in this world, so it is a very general statement. Also do not put me on the spot, it is unneeded. If you do not like the way I think then get out! I do not want someone who is not open to someone criticizing the way magic is right now.
 
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I am just curious if this response reflects some of your traits?
Or if you just figure that is the right answer and what I want to here?

I know how to be different but I truly feel many of you do not, and I am trying to help this community.

EDIT:

YEAH I don't know where I was going with that disregard if you end up re reading this thread Pra.
 
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I find imitation occurs a lot, especially in flourishing because originality is so very difficult due to the years of previous experiance already out there. I mean back in the day a charlier cut would have been awesome, but people are always expected to be new and unique and the bar is being raised reduclously high to be unique. Being unique these days requires a massive back log of experiance in other techniques before you are comfortable with the cards etc to start expanding the box and pushing the limits, you need to build your way up. You can't expect someone to pick up a deck of cards and invent a 50 pack cut on the back of one hand before exploring and learning other material.

Writters mostly don't start off writting a brilliant new masterpiece, they read tons of other material, they practice writting millions of crappy cliched stories and they learn proper plot devices etc. Imitation is just a means to an end, sure there are many people that do not continue to push the limits and are happy with just copying others, but many of the videos that you will find online by the more experianced flourishers will be unique because of their experiance in the field. The other "clones" that all do Dan and Dave style cuts or etc do it because they are still learning, they are polishing old moves and refining their skills.

I could go on for hours about how each cut of Dan and Dave's or D+M's or whatever can teach you a differ finger hold or a different concept, these ideas branch your mind into thinking of new and intersting things that you could do. Why are there 10 million sybil variations? For the exact reasons I have stated, because people learn the sybil cut, a standard old move, a very good cut that gets your hands used to holding them very strangely, then they go "How can I make this more of my own" they aren't yet experianced enough to make something totally unique, but they are trying not to just do the bog standard sybil cut so they make a variation.

Imitation is usually not a case of lazyness, but a case of nessecity, it's the natural building blocks of getting better at anything is practice, when the bar has been raised so high as to the level of flourishing, you cannot expect everyone to be pushing the boundaries a few months in. There are a few who are naturals and are able too, but for the rest of us lay folk, give time to adjust and to grow. I've found my number of uniqueish flourishes has increased as time goes on, mostly through mistakes of other flourishes, or just playing around with a new concept, it's all just a long process.

This all I'm sure applies to magic, copying someone elses patter to begin with is an example of inexperiance a lack of understanding of what words mean what and how they shape the experiance for the spectator, after doing a number of tricks with other's patter it builds a mental database and you can see why certain things are done a certain way and you can start to modify it and experiment with your own patter to make a unique experiance that suits your style.

As I said above, this does not apply to EVERYONE, there may be some people that just don't feel as creative and don't want to push into new ground and are happy just imitating others, there is nothing wrong with that, but I'm sure a lot of the people here want to be the next Andrei or Dan and Dave and be super special awesome in their own unique, they just need time to improve.
 
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