Totally Out of Control - Better left unreplicated?

[Mentalizing]

The criticism is coming from the wording of his post, I never degrade anybody or insult them unless it is coming first at me, just to get that out of the way.

Maybe it is my interpretation that is leading to my conclusion. What I am reading is the preference of something that is exclusive. Why? There isn't really a good statement of why you really believe this. I usually don't question peoples motives or their reasoning but it seems that he wants the trick for himself and the select few that buy the book because......?

Personally I hope everybody enjoys TOOC, I do not own it since it isn't my style but basing your purchase on a preference that doesn't have a real reason behind it seems kinda ignorant.

 

[praetoritevong]

Well I can't speak for Creeper on his preference, but a possible answer might be:

He prefers to work on magic that others have overlooked, neglected or dismissed. I see it as, it's not so much that he wants the trick for himself, but rather that he prefers to use tricks which are not used by others; the difference being that in the former, there is a definite sign of hoarding and possibly, selfishness, but from the latter, simply a personal preference/choice out of the desire simply to be more unique.

 

[Ben Long]

The following happened today.

I'm currently in New Orleans on my winter break, catching up with friends, etc. One of my closest friends who goes to Reed College and I went out to get some shrimp po-boys at this hole-in-the-wall place and while waiting, I did my version of Out of this World.

I've known this trick for a while. It's a classic of magic and is considered by many to be the greatest card trick ever invented. I do my own version of the trick with my own presentation and my own little twist that I add on to the end to make it all the more impossible, and it makes for a much cleaner ending. All of the classic elements are still there.

When I was done, he was thoroughly impressed. As part of the presentation, I say the name of the trick and discuss its origins and the power it has, through a historical anecdote. When the trick was done, he told me--and mind you, this is one of my best friends, not just some dick--"Well, I'll look it up on youtube."

I smiled and laughed and said, "go ahead." Because it doesn't matter to me. I've work-shopped the trick enough to a point that even if he found step-by-step mechanics online, it wouldn't really compromise the power of the trick. The extra pieces I have added over my time performing this trick make it a nearly different procedure. Additionally, my presentation is one that I've worked on literally for hours straight.

What's my point? As a magician, when I learn a trick, I do more than learn the mechanics and sleights. I try to integrate it into my manner of presentation. When someone sees me perform "Out of this World," they see a different trick than they would see if Joe the Plumber performed "Out of this World." I try to do this with every trick I learn--that is, streamline it to a point at which it fits the way I like to perform and do my moves, etc. It's not just a style thing, but a personal preference thing.

Perhaps I'll take a trick that's more commonly performed, like Card to Pocket. I've spent a lot of time learning variations on this plot, seeing great performances, and more importantly, bad performances of this trick, but I now use a version that is unique to me. If someone decides to look up "Card to Pocket tutorial" on youtube, they won't find the version I just fried them with.

As a performer, it's not just my job to execute sleights, but to create magic.

So, I won't buy Totally out of Control when it comes out--I'm saving my money for True Astonishment--but I may get it in the future. It's probably true that there will be a lot of carbon copies of the tricks on the internet, but those won't be the tricks that I perform.

 

[The Tumbleweed]

So, I won't buy Totally out of Control when it comes out--I'm saving my money for True Astonishment--but I may get it in the future. It's probably true that there will be a lot of carbon copies of the tricks on the internet, but those won't be the tricks that I perform.

Beautiful paragraph

 

[tian_ci]

From what I've heard and I'm open to being false, a successful magic release will move around 5,000 units. Give or take that might be more or less. But think about it, that's 5,000 people (plus the few that share and pirate) and then you have the people who throw it up on the net to download, give or take who at most 1,000? (guess?)

That would be 6,000 people spread throughout our entire country (USA) and world, such as in your case. The chances that a theory 11 product (outside of david blaine material) will become mainstream is a bit silly. You're making an assumption based on your age level. I'm sure that some of the effects will become a bit popular, but the fact that Kenner's material is not simple, will frustrate people from wanting to learn it.

I've never watched the bucks dvd and outside of these forums and the collectors, most people haven't either. Since you're only performing for you tube maybe that's the only audience you know.

 

[praetoritevong]

From what I've heard and I'm open to being false, a successful magic release will move around 5,000 units. Give or take that might be more or less. But think about it, that's 5,000 people (plus the few that share and pirate) and then you have the people who throw it up on the net to download, give or take who at most 1,000? (guess?)

That would be 6,000 people spread throughout our entire country (USA) and world, such as in your case. The chances that a theory 11 product (outside of david blaine material) will become mainstream is a bit silly. You're making an assumption based on your age level. I'm sure that some of the effects will become a bit popular, but the fact that Kenner's material is not simple, will frustrate people from wanting to learn it.

I've never watched the bucks dvd and outside of these forums and the collectors, most people haven't either. Since you're only performing for you tube maybe that's the only audience you know.

I'm sorry, but how can you criticise me for make assumptions and make your own in the same post. Stop being hypocritical, read my posts, and you'll notice the references to gigs I've made throughout my posts. Have you seen me perform? What do you know of me, that allows you to make such assertions? I may be young but perhaps it's you that needs to grow up and look past that - and stop making cheap shots at me. If you have an argument, fine, but that's hardly a reason to make assertions at me.

The may well be the average for a good sale. But how do you know how many people have bought units of Trilogy? The only thing you have to back up your argument is this figure of a "successful" magic product, and a number that floated into your head. Sorry, but that's not very convincing. If you make an argument, have the facts to back it up. I disagree with your assertion both on principle and also on opinion, in that I believe Trilogy has been exceptional, not just in sales but in downloads. I know people who have downloaded it, and there sure as hell were more than 1000 downloads. And then there are the people like me who have never looked at the Trilogy in their lives - but still have seen so much of Tivo that they know how it's done. So I've never created or performed Tivo, but how many more people do you think learn Tivo just from watching? That's something you can't measure.

I'm dismayed how quickly an intelligent argument turned into senseless criticism and hypocrisy. Since you feel the need to take cheap shots at me, mate, maybe you need to grow up.

 

[aznofspades]

I think we should take the steps to try for every creative opportunity possible. Because even if YOU take steps to personalize the trick, most of us are lazy.

Because even if it's not obvious to the spectator's, there is just something missing when you rip off a routine word for word. (The only time I think this is acceptable is if you're just starting out or performing a special trick as a tribute to like a teacher)

If you didn't create it yourself or contribute anything new to it, I truly believe you are not as passionate about it because you didn't put any effort into it other than perfecting the sleights and patter.

Keep it real.

 

[praetoritevong]

I think we should take the steps to try for every creative opportunity possible. Because even if YOU take steps to personalize the trick, most of us are lazy.

Because even if it's not obvious to the spectator's, there is just something missing when you rip off a routine word for word. (The only time I think this is acceptable is if you're just starting out or performing a special trick as a tribute to like a teacher)

If you didn't create it yourself or contribute anything new to it, I truly believe you are not as passionate about it because you didn't put any effort into it other than perfecting the sleights and patter.

Keep it real.

I definitely agree. As I was thinking about a routine to put together today, I ran through the motions of my Out of this World routine. I've done it God knows how many times. I know the patter inside and out, I know the timing, every little thing that has possibly gone wrong in the past, every little nuance, even which syllable I emphasise in the sentences I say. What to say to whom, and when. And as I was going through this today, it struck me how proud I was of this routine. It's one of my strongest, but I never really realised how proud I was of it, and suddenly, when I'm asked what my favourite routine is, this comes to mind.

It seems to me that this is exactly what you're talking about - the extra effort into the routine to make it that much more personal. Perhaps four or five different influences went into the making of this routine. The notes all existed before the musician played them, but I put them in this order, I worked out the nuances of the effect through performance, I made it work for me in a way that amplifies my performance, my personal style and my vision for magic.

aznofspades, you're absolutely right - you can't be this passionate about a routine unless you've put the extra effort in. And one other very important thing - it shows to the audience, and we have to give them credit for that.

Great point, great post.

 

[aznofspades]

Thanks.

Check your PM box.

And back to the basic question:

Sure, go ahead make a DVD. It's good magic, what people do with it is their choice. The only one who's opinion really matters in whether it actually will be is Chris Kenner. He's in the industry, he knows the trade offs.

 

[arkelen]

I personally think that we have to look at this a few ways, for people who dont know anything about tooc's book or cant find a copy then this gives the book and Chris kenner some exposure, but I dont want to see every one and their brother doing things like inTenCity and others from the book but it does give exposure to great magic and is'nt spreading magic and making better preformers out of people what its all about? I dont want to see a billion youtube videos of tooc tricks because of the dvd but people already have it at their disposal to do just that because the book exist know what I mean? Also theory11 has to sell items to stay in buisness, and they are an amazing company, their is also other sites out their other then penguine theory 11 and ellusionist and everything but i really like the way theory 11 is operated and I love the way Chris Kenner teaches ( and every1 else on theory 11 haha!) so the TOOC dvd will spread some good magic but uit is inevitable that ppl will copy and not be origonal but its bound to happen eventually with everything right =\?
I personally would rather fail at origonality then sucseed at immitation. But I guess the whole point of this is; spreading great magic and making better preformers is what its all about and TOOC dvd will help and cant wait for it cause I love the book do a lot from it and cant wait to see the dvd.