Can mentalism be combined with magic?
- Thread starter Randy
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In that performance,you are still labeled as a magician. Also,to everyone,read my side note question posted above.
yes they do. mindreading is not magic. they are two different things. you dont want someone to think that you can read minds by sleight of hand
That was what I was wondering. I was thinking that would be possible, BUT the credibility in your act would be kind of shot, because they saw you do a few card or coin effects. Now there are a few mentalism card effects out there. I know that Paul Vigil has a few. I know that Double Thought by Al Koran COULD actually be done by a mentalist and he/she'd still have the same credibility.
But it seems like things like the Invisible Palm or whatever would just look silly.
I think people still have that safety net with magicians. No matter how good or smooth your moves are. They will ALWAYS have something to fall back on. I forget who said it. But, just because they don't know HOW you did something, doesn't mean they don't know that you did it.
But it seems like things like the Invisible Palm or whatever would just look silly.
I think people still have that safety net with magicians. No matter how good or smooth your moves are. They will ALWAYS have something to fall back on. I forget who said it. But, just because they don't know HOW you did something, doesn't mean they don't know that you did it.
Although I firmly believe magic and mentalism are totally different entities, I do think they can compliment one another in a well-thought, structured act. I believe the conviction of this blend depends on the character of the performer. For example, I consider myself to be more of a mentalist and I often advertise that angle of my work. Much of my act pertains to psychological phenomena; coincidences; subliminal influencing, etc. When people leave my show, they come away remembering (essentially) a mindreader. With that said, I still perform some traditional pieces of magic as an interlude from one set to another. I do this for several reasons: (a) to offer a more well-rounded experience in entertainment and (b) to explain and demonstrate the differences between traditional "magicians" and myself. It educates and entertains at the same time, and my character makes it all come together in a cohesive performance.
Unfortunately, I do agree that magic and mentalism are more often messily thrown together than skillfully orchestrated. I see many newcomers perform tricks out of sheer imitation of what they see on television. Doing mentalism and magic without any understanding or appreciation for structure or character detracts from BOTH genres. I've seen some awesome magicians do horrible mentalism. I've seen some awesome mentalists do horrible magic. Doing so really took away from the overall experience and made people question what type of entertainer they were watching.
Honestly, I think to argue that a mentalist cannot perform magic believably (or vice versa) is an ignorant statement. Can a singer also dance? Can a dancer also sing? The answer is generally yes, of course it's possible-- but the talent, skill-set, and knowledge of the individual will produce varying levels of success.
RS.
Unfortunately, I do agree that magic and mentalism are more often messily thrown together than skillfully orchestrated. I see many newcomers perform tricks out of sheer imitation of what they see on television. Doing mentalism and magic without any understanding or appreciation for structure or character detracts from BOTH genres. I've seen some awesome magicians do horrible mentalism. I've seen some awesome mentalists do horrible magic. Doing so really took away from the overall experience and made people question what type of entertainer they were watching.
Honestly, I think to argue that a mentalist cannot perform magic believably (or vice versa) is an ignorant statement. Can a singer also dance? Can a dancer also sing? The answer is generally yes, of course it's possible-- but the talent, skill-set, and knowledge of the individual will produce varying levels of success.
RS.
Another question. What would a good mentalism effect be to perform on the phone. Like say a potential client calls you and just to get them hooked or interested, you would do a reading or something on the phone.
"I do not restrict myself to mindreading effects when I am performing in the real world. Enough magicians have asked me about the wisdom of combining magic and mindreading in performance. No lay participant in my effects has ever queried this ... I work to combine magic and mindreading with 'hypnosis' to create something new and very powerful ... Whilst I see the arguments for not combining the two areas of performance as valid and sensible, I do feel that they are limited. I would take my idea even further and say that it is sometimes even possible to combine magic and mindreading in the same effect and still have something that has a deep impact.
The aim [with Derren's effect Smoke] is to begin with a decent mindreading effect and then take it a stage further. While out of place in a straight mentalism routine, the effect of the 'magic' ending is, I feel, to stop them from treating the mindreading like a puzzle to work out, and to yield to the greater performance.
As much as I perform mindreading effects, I rarely enjoy watching most mentalism - I do feel that its entertainment value is inherently quite low ... In commercial performance, I prefer to ensure that the effects I perform are really going to knock the audience for at least six. So these effects here are borne out of a desire to push mindreading into somewhere new, and a wish (which I hope one day to achieve) to combine conjuring, hypnosis and psychic effects into a heightened new form of close-up entertainment."
- - -
"Mind-reading effects, of which I am fond, can be amongst the strongest routines that magic can offer. By this I mean that estranging mentalism from magic is a mistake, and has nothing to do with the reality of professional performance. Mind reading can, and should be, presented uncompromisingly and seriously, (according to the artist's vision) as an application of the same principles that lie behind the 'real work' of magic. Divisions of classification are amateurish concerns ... Mind-reading has great potential for intimate and meaningful wonder, but generally lacks the aesthetic appeal of visual magic. When the two are fushed, and made dramatically resonant, a very strong performance tool evolves."
- Derren Brown, from his books Pure Effect and Absolute Magic
The aim [with Derren's effect Smoke] is to begin with a decent mindreading effect and then take it a stage further. While out of place in a straight mentalism routine, the effect of the 'magic' ending is, I feel, to stop them from treating the mindreading like a puzzle to work out, and to yield to the greater performance.
As much as I perform mindreading effects, I rarely enjoy watching most mentalism - I do feel that its entertainment value is inherently quite low ... In commercial performance, I prefer to ensure that the effects I perform are really going to knock the audience for at least six. So these effects here are borne out of a desire to push mindreading into somewhere new, and a wish (which I hope one day to achieve) to combine conjuring, hypnosis and psychic effects into a heightened new form of close-up entertainment."
- - -
"Mind-reading effects, of which I am fond, can be amongst the strongest routines that magic can offer. By this I mean that estranging mentalism from magic is a mistake, and has nothing to do with the reality of professional performance. Mind reading can, and should be, presented uncompromisingly and seriously, (according to the artist's vision) as an application of the same principles that lie behind the 'real work' of magic. Divisions of classification are amateurish concerns ... Mind-reading has great potential for intimate and meaningful wonder, but generally lacks the aesthetic appeal of visual magic. When the two are fushed, and made dramatically resonant, a very strong performance tool evolves."
- Derren Brown, from his books Pure Effect and Absolute Magic
For the sake of argument, how do you classify Docc Hilford.
But if you're if you're doing what is ostensibly a mind reading routine, then you seriously screwed up if someone is asking you to contact the dead. Either way, you ****ed up the theater of it all.
Classify Kenton Knepper please.
To nerds like us, yes.
I have often been asked as a metal fan if there is a point distinguishing the differences between folk metal, black metal, and Viking metal. The assertion is that the labels don't matter because it's like... all about the muuuusic, maaaaaan; it's all what's... what's on the inside, you know? Like, wow, man.
But labels and cataloging do matter in direct proportion to how much you care.
That's just it. Docc used to be a bizarrist who does almost exclusively mentalism these days. Kenton has his hands in pretty much every pie there is. Both men have very distinctive styles.
Kenton is much like an Old World sorcerer or mystic. He himself is a very spiritual man, and creates the image of a guru in his performances.
Docc uses his background in magic to create very unique mentalism pieces such as his Invisible Dice routine.
The ground where magic and mentalism overlap without being mental magic is very small, but it does exist.
I think it does matter a bit to the spectators and it depends on how you want them to perceive you. Which is why I asked the question. Would you still able to convince them you can actually read minds, if before that you do a coin routine or a card trick? I was reading Fundamentals and it stated that usually when people see a magician they tend to burn the guys hands and also look at his eyes. This however does not happen with Mentalist because they don't have anything in their hands (besides maybe a pen and paper or whatever is needed for said mind reading.). So lets say you were to a card routine and then tried to convince people you can actually read minds with a certain effect. Would they believe it, or would they just instantly think it is was trickery. Sense the stuff you did before was nothing but trickery.
People naturally think magicians can read minds either way.
Your asking if people will believe if one can actually read minds,is the same as do you think people actually think you perform real magic.
I'd like to introduce you to Kreskin. People believe that he can ACTUALLY read minds. Not that he does simple mental magic. But that he is an actual psychic. The same is said for Max Maven and possibly a lot of the better top Mentalist's out there.
I think Kreskin does do magic, but he rarely ever mixes it with his act.
I do my show, as usual, then I start to change the pace. I easily drift into the mentalism side. Eventually closing with either Diplopia or Sympathy for the Devil. Both by Paul Vigil.
Yeah,ok.You didnt really say anything.
There are people who will always think you can do what your pretending to do.
The better performer you are,the more they will believe it to be true.
There are people who will always think you can do what your pretending to do.
The better performer you are,the more they will believe it to be true.
I almost always do a mind-reading effect with a deck of cards, which is more mental magic than mentalism. Gets better reactions than almost anything I do because I dress it up in theatricality.
Mentalism doesn't differ from magic in what you make people believe. It's a different theatrical experience.
Yes but you use a key card effect. Which is less about sleight of hand and pretty much gives you more time to milk it.
As opposed to you doing something like "OK, if I count down 5 cards I should arrive at your thought of card." etc etc.