The Morals of "Figuring Out"

Feb 16, 2009
217
0
South Bend, IN
My feelings on this issue are a little mixed. I can think of three distinct cases

1) You figure out the approximate method of a trick and you buy it so that you can learn more of the nuances and subtleties that make the trick work. This is what happens most of the time with me.

2) The trick could be something mathematical, in which case what sells the trick is your presentation. I would try and come up with my own distinct presentation for such a trick (instead of copying a performers presentation verbatim).

3) You figure out the method, and it turns out the method is based on elementary sleights/subtleties that are in multiple books you own. I do this very rarely, but if the sleights are already there in books I own and the guy selling the trick has nothing else to add, I might simply create my own version of the trick by referring to my books.
 
Oct 16, 2007
46
0
Centreville Va
I feel if you figure out a trick then you can use it or tweak it to your style but always give credit where credit is due...i agree that you should buy the dvd to see the little things that help make the trick astonishing but for some ppl (especially a lot of young magicians) dont have the money to buy the trick but they can watch ppl perform the trick or effect on youtube or some other video site and watch the person mess up or flash the secret. ive seen plenty of ill performed effects on youtube by kids who think they are good. thats why i ask for coments on my videos incase i missed somethin that someone else caught..then i can take it down...we as a community need to help the younger and new magicians so that they dont accidentally show our secrets. When you see a video of magic on the internet leave a comment telling them what they did well and what they can work on...WE as a community need to help strengthen it.
 
Sep 1, 2007
279
1
Apparently the concept of a "cover band" is unknown to you?

Appearantly it is not very familiar to you either. They actually pay for the rights to get to play those songs. In magic this doesn't happen.

BTW.I did enjoy how ineski made the facial expressions and mannerisms of jeff McBride on stage. But im sure he asked for permission.

Yeah, you can clearly see that I've grown up quite a bit in two years. My views have changed dramatically on other things too.

Now can I throw a low comment on your performance on national TV you did two years ago?

I find this an odd statement from someone that has so many Youtube videos. Are you telling me that you asked permission to broadcast and use all these things over the internet? You got permission from the owners of the effects? Did you ask permission when possible to those whose effects you have used on TV?

For TV, yes I did ask for permission when it was a matter of a still living creator. In YouTube I post random stuff I've worked up that doesn't necessarily have a firm place in my working repertoire. These ideas are in most cases "new" approaches in terms of method and overall effect and credit is given where credit is due. Viewer discression is still adviced.

Any more of the messages directed to me can be delivered via PM.

Lack of copyrighting in magic is a major problem at the moment and anyone who actually is out there or even browses other magic forums should be aware of this.

Stealing is wrong. No matter if you learned a trick all on your own from that video, it is still not your right to use it.

EDIT: Is it time to play the expertvillage-card yet?
 
Feb 27, 2008
2,342
1
33
Grand prairie TX
Now can I throw a low comment on your performance on national TV you did two years ago?

You act as if its so hard or special to be on t.v. or achieve any level of so called fame.
Since you brought it up Ive modeled clothes for Ed Hardy and BCBG and ive performed for selena gomez and eva longoria who I had a chance encounter at a basketball game. Its not special.
 
Appearantly it is not very familiar to you either. They actually pay for the rights to get to play those songs. In magic this doesn't happen.

No... And I really don't think my youth counceler paid the Rolling Stones everytime we sang "What I like About You" around the camp fire when I was a teenager either. Now I'm not a musician, but I know what some of these cover bands make and I know they can't afford rights and royalties. But again, you are over defending a moot point I think.


Any more of the messages directed to me can be delivered via PM.
I agree. Probably the smartest thing you've said yet.

Stealing is wrong. No matter if you learned a trick all on your own from that video, it is still not your right to use it.

So... you are saying that even if you buy the trick then you shouldn't perform it because you didn't create it? I think that's a bit extreme.
 
Sep 1, 2007
279
1
You act as if its so hard or special to be on t.v. or achieve any level of so called fame.
Since you brought it up Ive modeled clothes for Ed Hardy and BCBG and ive performed for selena gomez and eva longoria who I had a chance encounter at a basketball game. Its not special.

So is that a no?

And I'm not acting that it is special as I know it isn't. You're the one who brought it up.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sep 1, 2007
279
1
No... And I really don't think my youth counceler paid the Rolling Stones everytime we sang "What I like About You" around the camp fire when I was a teenager either. Now I'm not a musician, but I know what some of these cover bands make and I know they can't afford rights and royalties. But again, you are over defending a moot point I think.

We are talking about real bands actually performing for people, not just some random jamming around a camp fire. They have to pay for playing copyrighted songs. Usually the event organizer takes care of the rights when they hire the band, but the artists get paid for other people playing their songs.

And the point is valid. There is no such system in magic, but there are people working on a system and TV-performance rights are already starting to get limited.



And with comments like the monkey one on page two I have to say you've still got some growing to do kiddo.

Yeah.


So... you are saying that even if you buy the trick then you shouldn't perform it because you didn't create it? I think that's a bit extreme.

No, I'm not saying that. Where'd you get that from?


How about those PMs?
 
Feb 27, 2008
2,342
1
33
Grand prairie TX
So is that a no?

You can give a low comment on anything you see me in.
I dont give a sh!t. If your in the public eye and cant handle those things then get out.

On the other hand,it seems your reaching far from just learning an effect from the trailer or a video and saying that if I BUY a trick I still dont have the right to perform it.Thats what it sounds like. Is that assumption correct?
 
Feb 27, 2008
2,342
1
33
Grand prairie TX
Btw something one has to consider is...you cant stop someone from figuring something out.
There are no laws that can stop that. If I catch the method from a trailer who's fault is that?
Maybe someone should learn to edit their trailers differently?
No one stole anything at that point.
 

wZEnigma

Elite Member
Jun 17, 2009
1,511
153
NE Ohio.
ianchandlerwriting.com
Guys,

Let's get on topic here. Personal issues can be discussed via PMs.

Getting back to the OP and some comments that were made, do you think that magicians rehashing old ideas every day is the same thing as figuring out a trick and performing it?

Glad to see it's a hot topic, but let's get back to the purpose.

Ian
 

wZEnigma

Elite Member
Jun 17, 2009
1,511
153
NE Ohio.
ianchandlerwriting.com
Btw something one has to consider is...you cant stop someone from figuring something out.
There are no laws that can stop that. If I catch the method from a trailer who's fault is that?
Maybe someone should learn to edit their trailers differently?
No one stole anything at that point.

Also, if the effect is too easy to figure out, it is the magician's fault. It's not the viewer's for being too intelligent.

Ian
 
Sep 1, 2007
279
1
On the other hand,it seems your reaching far from just learning an effect from the trailer or a video and saying that if I BUY a trick I still dont have the right to perform it.Thats what it sounds like. Is that assumption correct?

When have I ever said that? No that's not correct.
 
Stealing is wrong. No matter if you learned a trick all on your own from that video, it is still not your right to use it.

EDIT: Is it time to play the expertvillage-card yet?

Sounds like to me that you are saying the following: Steeling is wrong. No matter if you learned a trick on your own, or from that video (assuming any video that you buy), it is still not your right to use it.

Also, go ahead and try to take a low shot at me with the expert village stuff. I'll be the first to tell you I was wrong. And just like your track record so far in this thread, everyone makes mistakes.

Oh and I'm going to check on the legalities with cover bands. Because I am certain you're wrong.
 
Feb 27, 2008
2,342
1
33
Grand prairie TX
Also, if the effect is too easy to figure out, it is the magician's fault. It's not the viewer's for being too intelligent.

Ian

true.
Also I dont see this as a "major" problem.
I see very few people actually "figure out" a trick. It doesnt happen as much as people think it does. And the only tricks anyone could probably figure out are card tricks. Everything else is gimmicked or not at all easy to figure out.
 
Sep 1, 2007
279
1
Sounds like to me that you are saying the following: Steeling is wrong. No matter if you learned a trick on your own, or from that video (assuming any video that you buy), it is still not your right to use it.

Also, go ahead and try to take a low shot at me with the expert village stuff. I'll be the first to tell you I was wrong. And just like your track record so far in this thread, everyone makes mistakes.

Oh and I'm going to check on the legalities with cover bands. Because I am certain you're wrong.

Do that. And make sure they are for real actual paid live performances and not just jamming around a camp fire.

Once again, when have I ever said that you couldn't use a trick you've bought?
 
Do that. And make sure they are for real actual paid live performances and not just jamming around a camp fire.

I've got a email into my manager who'se a lawyer for entertainment and happens to manage a few bands on tour right now.


Once again, when have I ever said that you couldn't use a trick you've bought?

Dude, read my last post. Not only did I quote your words I explained how they could have been interpreted that way. I'm not going to type all that out again.
 
I agree with Lyle on this one, however the arguement about music is flawed.

Anybody with enough experience playing instruments can figure out the notes and chords to play. They remember the song and then they are able to play it, getting paid and what not.

Saying magic you can figure it out because most of us can if we put enough effort into it. How many of us figured out Dancy's "This is not your card" effect on the 1 on 1? We know what was going on, other effects on magic websites are often had to be reedited because they show that they used a double lift or some sleight that exposed the effect, to magicians.

Anybody in a certain field can take advantage of products in that genre. Is it okay to do it? Hell no, however I have actually heard very similar melodies in songs by Isaac Sheperd and Jack Johnson, and relations to Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory (1st one.)

However the little debate with Ineski, William, and Visual is getting a bit out of hand. Keep it a bit civil, still barely on topic.
 
Sep 1, 2007
279
1
Dude, read my last post. Not only did I quote your words I explained how they could have been interpreted that way. I'm not going to type all that out again.

I suggest you actually reading what is written there and not interpreting it into something else. Nowhere do I say that you couldn't perform a trick you've bought.
 
I conceed my comment about the cover bands. apparently they are controlled by the BMI or the ASCAP.

However, while I enjoy my words with a side of frenchfries I would like to state that I hold to my initial point that even a musician learns to play others music before they learn to create their own.

Also another thing to consider: Not everyone's goal for magic is to become a working professional. For some, a few card tricks to be the life of the party is all they want. If you are never going to work with, meet, or worry about what other professionals think, your integrity might be more compermised than someone with a name and career to defend.

I read word for word back to you what you wrote. And provided you my reasons for WHY it could be misinterpreted. I only did what you asked.

Get off the defensive, and make some valid points instead of picking appart everyone else's in the vain hopes of diverting the course of this conversation. Or go hide behind your pm's like you origionally threatened to do.
 
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