Everyone,
This thread can make some good points, and I think it has value. Let's not get it closed.
Ian
This thread can make some good points, and I think it has value. Let's not get it closed.
Ian
The Morals of "Figuring Out"
- Thread starter wZEnigma
- Start date
Sorry. I should know better than to engage in thread de-railment.
I'll be mindful of that. Thanks for the reality check.
I believe I have made some valid points. Like when you see someone do something it doesn't mean that you have a right to start doing the same thing with same jokes and lines even if you already know how the trick works. I've also said that figuring out tricks from watching a video is easy and one shouldn't feel special or intelligent when doing so. Also that figuring out a trick doesn't give you a permission to start performing that trick.
If you can figure out my last SNC entry, then you have my permission to perform it.
I think if you want to perform an effect, then you should buy the rights. Youtube and file sharing illegal music downloads has smudged this younger generations morals when it comes to this kind of thing.
And this is the reason that preview vids are so elusive, and don't show entire effects.
I think if you want to perform an effect, then you should buy the rights. Youtube and file sharing illegal music downloads has smudged this younger generations morals when it comes to this kind of thing.
And this is the reason that preview vids are so elusive, and don't show entire effects.
If you figure a trick out your still missing things from the dvd.... Your performance wont be as good. I figured out alot of things for example Indecent... Although I still bought it to make it better and Wayne really did make it alot better....
Hey JT...Shouldn’t we be asking Oscar Munoz? haha.
Ineski, you missed the point. Nobody is arguing that copying presentation, or downloading magic effects is a good thing. Nobody is saying to copy someone. The question is, “If I see something and figure it out, is it okay to do it”? This entire thread is about a grey area. If you are going to see an effect...know how it is done, but go out and buy it because you want to perform it, so you feel better about your moral dilemma. Then you must be a broke dummy, or a rich fool.
I buy lots of magic; I think many people here do. We support the industry when it deserves it. However, you are talking to a guy that owns over 200 music CD's...paid for all of them, but I also download music. It is called sampling. It allows you to know what is worth buying. Information should be free you communist. So you are arguing that someone should make a buck off their idea? So an equal rights capitalist? Are you kidding me? How many DOLLARS have you paid to the guy whose effect or move you use nightly? Royalties’ get paid EVERYTIME you use the song, not just the first time you buy it. You don't pay every time you use the trick that got you on TV. ALSO, ROYALTIES get paid when someone WANTS to play their song. Not when someone puts out a horrible tune! Do you know how much bad magic is out there? You should. Because kids can't buy it all, they shift through it. If someone puts an effect out that someone can rework without buying it - that is too bad, but it doesn't hurt the artist.
You see, this is where I don't get you - how does copying someone else hurt them? How is it stealing when it is free to take? If you have the option to have someone for free or to pay - for the same thing - do you pay? No. However, your morals tell you that it is WRONG to take the free thing, because it is someone else’s idea. But, you use someone else's ideas every day and don't pay a fee for it. This is a capitalist attitude, and it must affect you for you to be so passionate about it. The words you read right now are a language I did not create, and use to make money, yet I paid no fee for this information. So, what is wrong with seeing all of magic, and paying for what is worth paying for...just like I do with music? Bad art doesn't deserve a pay cheque because it is morally wrong not to pay them for their ideas...I think it is morally wrong to pay for poorly conceived ideas, but I can't return my magic DVD once I am done with it...how could I if I watched it. Returning it would be stealing still, unless you erased your memory.
You points are moot - you argue a moral right that sits in the middle of modern society. Get a grip, nobody is going broke through stealing...actually, a few "effect owners" (to not drop names) said that they get more hits because their work is introduced to more people. I had duped copies of Lee Ashers videos, and only went out of my way to meet him because I knew his work, and when I met him replaced all my dubs with originals. Artists get supported that deserve it.
PS - Nice posts Draven.
Ineski, you missed the point. Nobody is arguing that copying presentation, or downloading magic effects is a good thing. Nobody is saying to copy someone. The question is, “If I see something and figure it out, is it okay to do it”? This entire thread is about a grey area. If you are going to see an effect...know how it is done, but go out and buy it because you want to perform it, so you feel better about your moral dilemma. Then you must be a broke dummy, or a rich fool.
I buy lots of magic; I think many people here do. We support the industry when it deserves it. However, you are talking to a guy that owns over 200 music CD's...paid for all of them, but I also download music. It is called sampling. It allows you to know what is worth buying. Information should be free you communist. So you are arguing that someone should make a buck off their idea? So an equal rights capitalist? Are you kidding me? How many DOLLARS have you paid to the guy whose effect or move you use nightly? Royalties’ get paid EVERYTIME you use the song, not just the first time you buy it. You don't pay every time you use the trick that got you on TV. ALSO, ROYALTIES get paid when someone WANTS to play their song. Not when someone puts out a horrible tune! Do you know how much bad magic is out there? You should. Because kids can't buy it all, they shift through it. If someone puts an effect out that someone can rework without buying it - that is too bad, but it doesn't hurt the artist.
You see, this is where I don't get you - how does copying someone else hurt them? How is it stealing when it is free to take? If you have the option to have someone for free or to pay - for the same thing - do you pay? No. However, your morals tell you that it is WRONG to take the free thing, because it is someone else’s idea. But, you use someone else's ideas every day and don't pay a fee for it. This is a capitalist attitude, and it must affect you for you to be so passionate about it. The words you read right now are a language I did not create, and use to make money, yet I paid no fee for this information. So, what is wrong with seeing all of magic, and paying for what is worth paying for...just like I do with music? Bad art doesn't deserve a pay cheque because it is morally wrong not to pay them for their ideas...I think it is morally wrong to pay for poorly conceived ideas, but I can't return my magic DVD once I am done with it...how could I if I watched it. Returning it would be stealing still, unless you erased your memory.
You points are moot - you argue a moral right that sits in the middle of modern society. Get a grip, nobody is going broke through stealing...actually, a few "effect owners" (to not drop names) said that they get more hits because their work is introduced to more people. I had duped copies of Lee Ashers videos, and only went out of my way to meet him because I knew his work, and when I met him replaced all my dubs with originals. Artists get supported that deserve it.
PS - Nice posts Draven.
I'd also like to point out that often different magicians will release similar effects that simply have different handlings or are framed differently as well as variations on old routines, etc.
So the way I see the 'figuring it out' issue you aren't absolutely sure how they handled the trick anyway. You're taking the effect and figuring out your own way of accomplishing it. I'd say you should give credit where its due. Something like 'Inspired by Magician X's-Blah trick'. Chances are at some point you've learned a trick that was a product of that magician figuring something out.
So the way I see the 'figuring it out' issue you aren't absolutely sure how they handled the trick anyway. You're taking the effect and figuring out your own way of accomplishing it. I'd say you should give credit where its due. Something like 'Inspired by Magician X's-Blah trick'. Chances are at some point you've learned a trick that was a product of that magician figuring something out.
Heres something else.
You cant do anything about that. If someone figures out a trick,what can you do?
Nothing at all.Besides,you think those people who actually do it will be reading this thread or consider the fact that they are immoral?They dont care.They're not even here.
Btw inseki,dont go off talking about copyright laws or any of that.Thats not what this is about. This is simply about figuring out a trick from a trailer.
Wow, a whole lot of good arguments on here.
i like to think of it as thus. Lets say you watch a video of a guy doing a backflip, and study what he is doing, i mean really put some effort into observing his actions, and go outside and try it until you land it. Once you have landed it, is it stealing from the original guy to show it to other people?
NO!
Like magic ,acrobatics is a skilll that is meant to be displayed and performed for enjoyment, and bettering of the skill of the performer. I personally have watched and figured out many tricks from "professional" magicians and have take them and changed them to fit my performing style and my own patter.
The grey line of morality (as previously put) comes when you figure it out and copy the performing style to the dot. Whatever you are performing may be enjoyble to the spectator, but only to a point, because it is not your style, or creation.
I believe if a trick is released that can be figured out from the trailer, than 2 problems exist
#1 The design of the trailer is too revealing. some tricks just cant be shown all the way through, because of the simple moves that make up the trick. It is not amazing to magicians, but will be for spectators.
#2 The trick itself is too weak. we have all purchased a book with tricks that we will never use, because they seem too obvious to perform.
To a certain point, respect must be paid to the creator of a concept, move, or trick, but when you come down to it , are you going to mention the origin of, the mechanics grip, the overhand shuffle, the double lift, a flourish, a bluff pass, a spread, and the method to stigmata? you are probably only going to mention the most recent ones.
Many ideas can make up a single trick, and i think if you can break it down, and make it your own, then ther eis no moral dilemma.
i like to think of it as thus. Lets say you watch a video of a guy doing a backflip, and study what he is doing, i mean really put some effort into observing his actions, and go outside and try it until you land it. Once you have landed it, is it stealing from the original guy to show it to other people?
NO!
Like magic ,acrobatics is a skilll that is meant to be displayed and performed for enjoyment, and bettering of the skill of the performer. I personally have watched and figured out many tricks from "professional" magicians and have take them and changed them to fit my performing style and my own patter.
The grey line of morality (as previously put) comes when you figure it out and copy the performing style to the dot. Whatever you are performing may be enjoyble to the spectator, but only to a point, because it is not your style, or creation.
I believe if a trick is released that can be figured out from the trailer, than 2 problems exist
#1 The design of the trailer is too revealing. some tricks just cant be shown all the way through, because of the simple moves that make up the trick. It is not amazing to magicians, but will be for spectators.
#2 The trick itself is too weak. we have all purchased a book with tricks that we will never use, because they seem too obvious to perform.
To a certain point, respect must be paid to the creator of a concept, move, or trick, but when you come down to it , are you going to mention the origin of, the mechanics grip, the overhand shuffle, the double lift, a flourish, a bluff pass, a spread, and the method to stigmata? you are probably only going to mention the most recent ones.
Many ideas can make up a single trick, and i think if you can break it down, and make it your own, then ther eis no moral dilemma.
As I wasn't going to go through the five pages of arguments (only read the first page) I will simply ask another question in return for anyone thinking it's okay to do what the OP asked.
Is it alright to steal money from someone? Hmmmm? ........No one?..................................................................................................................................................................that's what I thought...
Is it alright to steal money from someone? Hmmmm? ........No one?..................................................................................................................................................................that's what I thought...
Well if you remember on one of my thoughts post I asked about the piracy.
How many of you how downloaded from Limewire or other sites where you pay no money for movies, music, etc. That is the same thing as figuring out magic, different context same idea.
So for those who say what scarecrow is adding and does what I listed above then stop being hypocritcal. It's just your morales that are in the way.
How many of you how downloaded from Limewire or other sites where you pay no money for movies, music, etc. That is the same thing as figuring out magic, different context same idea.
So for those who say what scarecrow is adding and does what I listed above then stop being hypocritcal. It's just your morales that are in the way.
That's completely true, but unfortunately, people don't see it that way. They don't seem to make the connection that it's the same thing, only in a different situation.
maybe its just me
seriously, if i have figured out a method without buying...i would definately perform it....thats not stealing....it just you being able to know what they did...it just wasn't good enough to fool you....
so you guys are saying, if criss angel went and performed something that didn't trick you at all, and you figured out what he did, you wouldn't do it????
i might be the only one saying this, but the stuff david blaine did on his specials...i just fail to believe that you all learned those effect by buying them.....some of you did some youtube'n...some magic shops, and plain figuring out what he did....but i don't know...
seriously, if i have figured out a method without buying...i would definately perform it....thats not stealing....it just you being able to know what they did...it just wasn't good enough to fool you....
so you guys are saying, if criss angel went and performed something that didn't trick you at all, and you figured out what he did, you wouldn't do it????
i might be the only one saying this, but the stuff david blaine did on his specials...i just fail to believe that you all learned those effect by buying them.....some of you did some youtube'n...some magic shops, and plain figuring out what he did....but i don't know...
i have read it and i don't agree....i literally figured out W:H's french kiss...right off the back....i was working on something similar.....it happens...i scratched my idea....and started amazing folk with houchin's effect....it was more proven....and for those who are thinking otherwise...i did buy the DVD, only to learn the match bite....i already knew the jay sankey effect, and a couple of versions of the other effects.....i was upset when the candy scam wasn't there....lol..
but anyways...i figured out what wayne was doing it...and i started doing it....right off....i don't see what was wrong what i did...i just don't....
"I download a dvd. I put it on a disk. I erase the dvd without ever watching it. What exactly is being stolen? If nothing is being stolen, then exactly how does the theft take place and when can you call it theft? You must argue that it's the process of watching the dvd, that constitutes theft. Then how is my watching the same dvd at a friend's house not also theft? Taking it a step further, how is it not theft if I create a music mix on your computer with your licensed music? You have the license, I don't. None of this is that simple when no tangibles are being stolen/used/whatever."
Read the above carefully and thoughtfully, how does this apply to me seeing a youtube tutorial, or going and having someone else teach me an effect that isn't theirs at a local magicians gathering?
"Copyright was invented to keep crooked publishers from stealing works and republishing them for profit. It wasn't designed to keep someone from copying a single page or one lone copy of a book. Of course there was no reason to copy a book when it was cheaper to buy a second copy. What's happened, and the point I am trying to make, is that technology has changed the economics of these industries, and moralizing about stealing or not stealing doesn't change that one simple fact. And it is the single most important fact."
It isn't against the law to borrow or use a certain part of someones presentation, or use part of someone's video to figure out your own method to recreate the same effect. Now I would say that it is the fair use law, but magic is all about ideas and methods. You can copyright a dvd to prevent other from copying the data on the dvd, but you can't claim copyright on the ideas expressed on the media, same goes with youtube videos.
"I like this next exercise because it really exposes all the relevant issues. I recently interviewed one of the young men who was involved in the Drink or Die piracy ring. It was busted, and he was arrested and sentenced to 33 months in jail. In the process of the bust, the government admitted to setting up a bogus Web site that had 12,000 software packages for distribution and, according to the government's own press release, distributed 100,000 illegal copies of software."
ZA? The government was pirating software? That could of been magic dvds they are taking money out of the creators pockets
"If this were a drug case, would the government deal 100,000 doses of heroin? I hope not. You have to ask if they see this piracy issue as trivial. And if this example is trivial, then why care about piracy at all? There can be deep rationalizations pertaining to why stealing is supposedly not stealing. The government distribution of 100,000 copies of software is a case in point. Was this not stealing? If not, why not? Is it okay to steal to catch a thief? Is the government exempt from its own laws? How does that work?"
The quoted parts of this post is copy pasted from PC magazine Articl “When Stealing is not Stealing”
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,652091,00.asp
Read the above carefully and thoughtfully, how does this apply to me seeing a youtube tutorial, or going and having someone else teach me an effect that isn't theirs at a local magicians gathering?
"Copyright was invented to keep crooked publishers from stealing works and republishing them for profit. It wasn't designed to keep someone from copying a single page or one lone copy of a book. Of course there was no reason to copy a book when it was cheaper to buy a second copy. What's happened, and the point I am trying to make, is that technology has changed the economics of these industries, and moralizing about stealing or not stealing doesn't change that one simple fact. And it is the single most important fact."
It isn't against the law to borrow or use a certain part of someones presentation, or use part of someone's video to figure out your own method to recreate the same effect. Now I would say that it is the fair use law, but magic is all about ideas and methods. You can copyright a dvd to prevent other from copying the data on the dvd, but you can't claim copyright on the ideas expressed on the media, same goes with youtube videos.
"I like this next exercise because it really exposes all the relevant issues. I recently interviewed one of the young men who was involved in the Drink or Die piracy ring. It was busted, and he was arrested and sentenced to 33 months in jail. In the process of the bust, the government admitted to setting up a bogus Web site that had 12,000 software packages for distribution and, according to the government's own press release, distributed 100,000 illegal copies of software."
ZA? The government was pirating software? That could of been magic dvds they are taking money out of the creators pockets
"If this were a drug case, would the government deal 100,000 doses of heroin? I hope not. You have to ask if they see this piracy issue as trivial. And if this example is trivial, then why care about piracy at all? There can be deep rationalizations pertaining to why stealing is supposedly not stealing. The government distribution of 100,000 copies of software is a case in point. Was this not stealing? If not, why not? Is it okay to steal to catch a thief? Is the government exempt from its own laws? How does that work?"
The quoted parts of this post is copy pasted from PC magazine Articl “When Stealing is not Stealing”
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,652091,00.asp
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You guys can call it whatever you want just to make your conscience feel fine, but stealing is stealing. You are still not paying for a product and using it, thus we like to call that stealing.
If I'm in a store and grab an apple and run out then eat it, what would you call that? Hmmm? Oh, let me think...stealing. Yea...it's stealing.
If I'm in a store and grab an apple and run out then eat it, what would you call that? Hmmm? Oh, let me think...stealing. Yea...it's stealing.
Scarecrow,
My conscious is perfect thank you, this debate isn't black and white its grey. Its probably one of the only actual grey areas of magic.
Another thing is magicians have been studying and stealing other magicians work since the beginning of modern magic. Perfect example is the Keller levitation, read "Hiding the Elephant" Jim Steinmeyer to know what I am talking about.
My conscious is perfect thank you, this debate isn't black and white its grey. Its probably one of the only actual grey areas of magic.
Another thing is magicians have been studying and stealing other magicians work since the beginning of modern magic. Perfect example is the Keller levitation, read "Hiding the Elephant" Jim Steinmeyer to know what I am talking about.
if you saw a commercial about a magician's special....and he did something and you saw it and went like "i know that"...and you wnet out there and did it right off, thats stealing???
do you wear a halo???