The Morals of "Figuring Out"

RealityOne

Elite Member
Nov 1, 2009
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1. Is a friend showing you the method to a trick that isn't his wrong?
2. If I see a video on youtube, or a trailer, and figure out the method via my brain, and then do it, is that wrong?

1. If you perform that effect without paying the creator, that would be wrong.
2. If you perform that effect without paying the creator, that would be wrong.

This isn't about stealing presentation, we are talking how we learn - so, if we learn something for free and we didn't create it - is someone owed money?

In many ways it is about copying plot and presentation. Look at Pressure or Autograph. If you reverse engineer and perform those effects you are following the plot developed by Daniel Garica / Dan White or Justin Miller without paying for it.

Those who I have learned their effects for free - they have received my business in other effects or ways. Also, I have had people ask about effects, and sent them to the creator. We ALL SHARE IDEAS THAT AREN'T ORIGINAL TO US ON THIS VERY FORUM. How many times have people quoted books or words, are we all to send money to the writer? Come on.

By saying this, you seem to recognize that it isn't ethical to teach someone an effect created (and marketed) by someone else. See my response to question #1 above.

I think there is a difference between quoting books and performing someone's effect. Would you feel comfortable copying the ideas (even the words) from someone's book and turning it in as a term paper for school as if it were your own work? Of course not. Is there a problem using someone's words to support your thesis in a term paper? No (with proper attribution). I would draw the analogy between that and using slights in your presentation (the quotes and slights are both building blocks).

I find it hilarious that so many of you think that seeing an effect and figuring it out is stealing! Yet, put sloppy videos on Youtube, download free magic via share programs, and ask so many questions on how things are done on this forum!

I never said stealing (too legal of a term and too inflammatory). See my above posts, I agree that all the things listed in your quote are unethical. I would go a step further, trying to learn an effect from a sloppy Youtube video is wrong (and a bad way to learn.. but that is another rant).

Just to reiterate, I have no problem with reverse engineering as a mental exercise. I have no problem with magician's sharing information about slights and their own effects and routines. I only have an issue if someone reverse engineers and effect and performs it without compensating the creator.
 
Feb 21, 2009
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//root
Really? So those magicians that sell magic for a LIVING (i.e. that's how they feed their families), don't deserve the money from you for the trick THEY created? That is incredibly arrogant and one of the most immature things I've ever heard. Even if I figure an effect out, I still purchase it. 1) It shows respect towards the artist. 2) Often times apart from the effect, the creator teaches you other things to go along with it, advanced handlings, different setups, tips, etc. It's always worth it.

Stop thinking of yourself so much...

You got it all wrong dude. Yours is much immature post.

1.) I show respect to the creators because i don't upload vids to youtube even if i figured it out. I keep it to myself and don't expose it to public because some do it even if the effect isn't mastered yet.

So whose got more respect to the artist. The one who bought the effect but upload a worse performance on youtube or the one not buying the trick but came up with a different method, upload a flawless performance on youtube and then give credit to where it's due?

2.) I concur on #2.

There's lot of grey areas on this matter.
 
Feb 21, 2009
14
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//root
There is money involved. The person who created the effect is selling the explantation, routining and the performance rights. By performing an effect you didn't buy you are taking his or her idea, concept and/or plot without paying for it. The creator expects to be paid for the effect. Otherwise they wouldn't be selling it.

As for how you can resist it? It is called doing the right thing and behaving ethically.

And how do you "give credit where it's due" to an effect? "This effect is called Pressure and it was developed by Daniel Garcia and Dan White... Its for sale on various magic websites, but I didn't pay for it. I watched the preview video fifty times until I think I figured out how it was done..."

First and foremost I don't live in the US so to be honest it's kinda expensive to buy an effect and ship it 10,000 miles away plus the shipping fee. I'm a magician who's not very rich. I don't want to download the DVD because it would be great to have the original package. My friend went the Chicago one day and i told him to buy magic stuffs for me because there's no stocks here in our remote area.

So the question is what if i came up with a different method for the same effect and happily perform it to my best friend? Do you crazily think it was unethical thing to do? I didn't ask my friend to pay me for that trick or ask penny for the audience. I do it for fun. Some of the guys here are hypocrite. Ask yourselves first.

To answer your next question, I don't upload videos to youtube period. Even if time comes that i decided to upload a video, rest assured that the performance is as good as the creator and i will give credit to them whether you like it or not. I got respect for them up until now.
 

RealityOne

Elite Member
Nov 1, 2009
3,744
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You got it all wrong dude. Yours is much immature post.

1.) I show respect to the creators because i don't upload vids to youtube even if i figured it out. I keep it to myself and don't expose it to public because some do it even if the effect isn't mastered yet.

So whose got more respect to the artist. The one who bought the effect but upload a worse performance on youtube or the one not buying the trick but came up with a different method, upload a flawless performance on youtube and then give credit to where it's due?

2.) I concur on #2.

There's lot of grey areas on this matter.

First, calling someone's post immature doesn't really further the discussion and actually makes you look, well... nevermind.

I don't think it is a question of who has more respect. NEITHER the person who bought the effect and then uploads a bad video OR the person who figures out an effect and then performs it without buying it is showing respect. Ethics and/or respect is not a comparative study... it is not OK to be slightly more ethical or respectful than the next person.

First and foremost I don't live in the US so to be honest it's kinda expensive to buy an effect and ship it 10,000 miles away plus the shipping fee. I'm a magician who's not very rich. I don't want to download the DVD because it would be great to have the original package. My friend went the Chicago one day and i told him to buy magic stuffs for me because there's no stocks here in our remote area.

So the question is what if i came up with a different method for the same effect and happily perform it to my best friend? Do you crazily think it was unethical thing to do? I didn't ask my friend to pay me for that trick or ask penny for the audience. I do it for fun. Some of the guys here are hypocrite. Ask yourselves first.

To answer your next question, I don't upload videos to youtube period. Even if time comes that i decided to upload a video, rest assured that the performance is as good as the creator and i will give credit to them whether you like it or not. I got respect for them up until now.

Not having enough money is a rationalization. I'd buy a Porsche, but I don't have enough money. That doesn't make it OK for me to just "borrow" one and take it for a joy ride. Despite what you say, you seem to actually purchase your magic (just as an aside... get books you learn more for less money).

If you come up with a different method (don't know how you can be sure it is a different method if you don't buy original handling of the effect), it is yours to sell (and I hope people buy it rather than reverse engineer it -- that will solve the not having enough money issue) or give away if you choose. I have shared slights that I've developed with others and see no problem with that. I do see a problem giving away something that isn't yours.

I'm glad you don't post to Youtube. It is better and more fun to perform for people than a webcam.

You only need to give credit when you are selling an effect that is based on a method developed by someone else ("this effect I'm about to teach you uses Hugard and Braue's Mercury Card Fold") and presumably used with their permission (e.g. Yegal Mesika's purchase of the rights to use the Fearson Hookup for the Tarantula).

I think it is actually a bad idea to name the effect when you perform it. That just encourages your audience to go to the Internet and try to figure it out.

But to your point, if you "give credit" without buying the effect that is really faint praise. What you are saying is that this effect is good enough for you to perform and good enough for you to "give credit" to the creator but not good enough for you to pay for.
 
Jul 13, 2009
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As for how you can resist it? It is called doing the right thing and behaving ethically.

*Gags and hurls his entire holiday meal into the toilet*

I knew I shouldn't have eaten that last soul, it was so tainted with self righteousness.

*sniffs reality one and runs back to the toilet*

OH GOD, your worse then the one I ate last night!


In case you missed the point of the above skit, I was calling you self-righteous.


OK, so creating and selling effects isn't and shouldn't be their only source of income. Notwithstanding you nit picking, adjones has a valid point.

Do you think that magicians who generate a portion of their income from selling effects they create should be compensated when someone performs their effect using the same method and plot?

My answer to that question is yes, even if the person performing the effect figured out the method by watching a preview.

Okay everyone who performs or uses the double lift in any of their marketed effects must pay the creator of said move. If they are no longer living you must pay their oldest living blood.


I agree that NONE of the follow show respect for a creator of an effect:

1. Copying or pirating a DVD or book
2. Intentionally exposing an effect on Youtube
3. Unintentionally exposing an effect on Youtube based on a poor performance

Great, but those where all hypothetical questions, Sheesh why are people taking a debate personally?
 
Jul 13, 2009
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My question to you is which of the following options shows MORE respect for a creator of an effect:

1. PAYING for the effect and then practicing an effect until it is down solid and performing the effect well (hopefully by adapting the patter to your own style and non mimicking the creator).

2. NOT PAYING for the effect and then practicing an effect until it is down solid and performing the effect well (hopefully by adapting the patter to your own style and non mimicking the creator).


Not going to answer those questions, they are terribly loaded and are about to burst. Besides the point you are trying to convey is incredibly irrelevant. But I will tell you this, both equally have tier own pros and cons. One if you pay for the effects you are paying the creator that is a given, when you figure out an effect and choose to actually use it, chances are it’s a very good method. With that said word of mouth will get other to possibly purchase the effects. Now I have dwelled a little longer then I intended on those questions, moving on.



I don't think anyone is saying that you must purchase the rights to every slight that you know. I think the question relates to when you use your knowledge of slights to reverse engineer an effect and then perform that effect.

You just did and several others who yelled its stealing. Go back and reread.


What I have a problem with is someone who see a preview for an effect, reverse engineers the effect and then performs it. For example, anyone who is familiar with various versions of the Anniversary Waltz and gaffed cards could figure out how to do Justin Miller's Autograph. However, what they have figured out is just the method (which slights to do in which order). Justin came up with the plot of the effect and the presentation shown in the preview video. My point is that even if you figure out the method, you shouldn't perform the effect (including the method, plot or patter) unless you buy the DVD.


Well Fudge and crackers, I have to go buy Daryls, ellusionists, and other’s dvds in order to perform the plot of an ACR. God damnit I am screwed now, this is something I wanted to bring up earlier but couldn’t figure out a good enough segue into it. When you buy an effect you are not buying the following:

Plot:
No plot of an effect is original to ANYONE! There are several plot lines that are the basis of every effect. I believe someone posted a thread a long while back titled “Theories of Magic” They listed things like this: Levitation, Transposition, Revelation, etc. Those are basic plots of magic. They are free game and can’t be bought or sold.
Patter:

Do I even need to say anything about this? I will regardless, most dvds don’t even come with real patter other then you ask the spectator to “Pick a card any card” that patter is someone else’s patter yet they don’t credit the person saying it. Another thing if you actually use that patter and you are not a beginner at magic, you need to be shot.

Now you probably asking yourself what’s left? DUR the method that someone took the darn time to make. That’s it your just paying for the secret nothing else, well maybe a dvd but dvd’s cost like 10 cents a disc.
 
Jul 13, 2009
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1. If you perform that effect without paying the creator, that would be wrong.
2. If you perform that effect without paying the creator, that would be wrong.

So now by your logic we are Fed no matter what we do? Shizz then F ethics.

*Goes to demonoid and types in Magic*


In many ways it is about copying plot and presentation. Look at Pressure or Autograph. If you reverse engineer and perform those effects you are following the plot developed by Daniel Garica / Dan White or Justin Miller without paying for it.

*Rubs his head trying to rid his forehead, and don’t dignify yourself thinking you’re the one giving me it*

Get off the plot and patter crap, your slinging it around like a monkey. It is an over exaduration of the essence of what you are actually purchasing, a secret.



By saying this, you seem to recognize that it isn't ethical to teach someone an effect created (and marketed) by someone else. See my response to question #1 above.

No one was denying that it isn’t ethically wrong.


I never said stealing (too legal of a term and too inflammatory). See my above posts, I agree that all the things listed in your quote are unethical. I would go a step further, trying to learn an effect from a sloppy Youtube video is wrong (and a bad way to learn.. but that is another rant).

Good thing it wasn’t directed to you specifically.

Just to reiterate, I have no problem with reverse engineering as a mental exercise. I have no problem with magician's sharing information about slights and their own effects and routines. I only have an issue if someone reverse engineers and effect and performs it without compensating the creator.

Dude if you reverse engineering an effect you are basically learning the secret, you can’t undo your thought. So you unethically according to you just learned the secret. Go kill yourself you unethical SOB. Anyway if you are really doing the reverse engineering as an exercise then you’d best harvest the fruit of your labor and use it to good effect for yourself.

If I go work out at the gym and build up all this muscle and get a nice beach body then go to my room and stay in all summer, what the hell did I just accomplish?
 
Jul 13, 2009
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First, calling someone's post immature doesn't really further the discussion and actually makes you look, well... nevermind.

Oh shut up!

Ethics and/or respect is not a comparative study... it is not OK to be slightly more ethical or respectful than the next person.

Huzzah!!!!!! *throws arms up in the air, letting it rain down the bloodied shoes of children past*
Your correct Ethics can’t be measured, with that said it makes everything you have been debating not what your doing is not debating its just flat out arguing the same damn points like a broken record.



Not having enough money is a rationalization. I'd buy a Porsche, but I don't have enough money.

Hulk is angry, hulk smash post.

Anyway, to say not having enough money is a rationalization is a very arrogant thing to say. What if I lived in India where it costs me three hundred dollars to ship a single 25 dollar dvd from the states to myself. Then after paying for all that find out the dvd is utter crap. Its called EMPATHY person.

If you come up with a different method (don't know how you can be sure it is a different method if you don't buy original handling of the effect), it is yours to sell (and I hope people buy it rather than reverse engineer it -- that will solve the not having enough money issue) or give away if you choose.

Wow I don’t even have to dicredit your theory that you are buying Plot, Patter, and Method. You just did it yourself, if I reverse engineer and create my own method to achieve the same plot, then use the same patter but a different method. According to you that is unethical. BS

You only need to give credit when you are selling an effect that is based on a method developed by someone else ("this effect I'm about to teach you uses Hugard and Braue's Mercury Card Fold") and presumably used with their permission (e.g. Yegal Mesika's purchase of the rights to use the Fearson Hookup for the Tarantula).

First of all Fearson did let Mr. Mesika use the hookup for the sunglasses, but that was it. He wasn’t given permission to use it for tarntula. But my reason for commenting now is to say your fickler then my cat.
 

RealityOne

Elite Member
Nov 1, 2009
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New Jersey
In case you missed the point of the above skit, I was calling you self-righteous.

I am convinced that I am right so that does make me self-righteous. However, I'm willing to read what you have to say with an open mind and think about. However, you theatrics and hyperbole, while entertaining, make that difficult to do.

Oh, and sorry about you losing your holiday meal.

Okay everyone who performs or uses the double lift in any of their marketed effects must pay the creator of said move. If they are no longer living you must pay their oldest living blood.

I never said that. I actually said it was fine to use slights but not effects (this is complicated enough without getting into slights that are marketed as effects).

Great, but those where all hypothetical questions, Sheesh why are people taking a debate personally?

Actually, despite your best efforts to make this personal, I'm not taking it personally.

Not going to answer those questions, they are terribly loaded and are about to burst. Besides the point you are trying to convey is incredibly irrelevant. But I will tell you this, both equally have tier own pros and cons. One if you pay for the effects you are paying the creator that is a given, when you figure out an effect and choose to actually use it, chances are it’s a very good method. With that said word of mouth will get other to possibly purchase the effects. Now I have dwelled a little longer then I intended on those questions, moving on.

The reason you aren't answering that question is that you know that purchasing an effect, practicing it and then performing it shows more respect than merely reverse-engineering and performing it.

I'm glad you feel better thinking that your performance of effects that you reversed-engineered will entice others to do the right thing.

You just did and several others who yelled its stealing. Go back and reread.

Again, my posts drew a distinction between slights and effects.

Well Fudge and crackers, I have to go buy Daryls, ellusionists, and other’s dvds in order to perform the plot of an ACR. God damnit I am screwed now...

I've never said you can't perfom something like an ACR, Anniversary Waltz or Ace production without buying every source out there that addresses the effect. Any idea taken to the extreme can be made to seem absurd.

I think the better example is whether you think it is right to end your ACR with Dan Haas's Riot without paying Dan for creating that method / plot.

...this is something I wanted to bring up earlier but couldn’t figure out a good enough segue into it. When you buy an effect you are not buying the following:

Plot:
No plot of an effect is original to ANYONE! There are several plot lines that are the basis of every effect. I believe someone posted a thread a long while back titled “Theories of Magic” They listed things like this: Levitation, Transposition, Revelation, etc. Those are basic plots of magic. They are free game and can’t be bought or sold.

Patter:
Do I even need to say anything about this? I will regardless, most dvds don’t even come with real patter other then you ask the spectator to “Pick a card any card” that patter is someone else’s patter yet they don’t credit the person saying it. Another thing if you actually use that patter and you are not a beginner at magic, you need to be shot.

Now you probably asking yourself what’s left? DUR the method that someone took the darn time to make. That’s it your just paying for the secret nothing else, well maybe a dvd but dvd’s cost like 10 cents a disc.

I disagree. What you are buying is the APPLICATION of that secret to produce an effect.

You could know the pass, Biddle Count, DL, Mercury Card Fold and the back palm, but you haven't thought of how to put those secrets (or slights) together so a thought of card ends up in the spectator's underwear (just an example... I've never actually thought about that either). If someone came out with that effect it would be an application of those secrets (or in this case slights) to develop an effect.

So now by your logic we are Fed no matter what we do? Shizz then F ethics.

*Goes to demonoid and types in Magic*

*Rubs his head trying to rid his forehead, and don’t dignify yourself thinking you’re the one giving me it*

Get off the plot and patter crap, your slinging it around like a monkey. It is an over exaduration of the essence of what you are actually purchasing, a secret."

In case you missed it (and I'm sure you didn't), I'm saying it isn't wrong if you pay for the effect (regardless of whether you figured it out on your own), practice it and then perform it.

I apologize if I wasn't clear about what I meant by "plot." See above where I talk about the application of secrets to create an effect.

Sorry about the headache, but I feel better knowing that I didn't give it to you.

No one was denying that it isn’t ethically wrong.
I'm glad we can agree on something.


Dude if you reverse engineering an effect you are basically learning the secret, you can’t undo your thought. So you unethically according to you just learned the secret. Go kill yourself you unethical SOB. Anyway if you are really doing the reverse engineering as an exercise then you’d best harvest the fruit of your labor and use it to good effect for yourself.

If I go work out at the gym and build up all this muscle and get a nice beach body then go to my room and stay in all summer, what the hell did I just accomplish?

Again, I've never said there was a problem with reverse-engineering if you don't perform the effect. I think the benefit of reverse-engineering is it makes you a better magician. Thinking about how someone could do an effect is good training for developing your own effects (which if you do it well would be better than performing someone else's effects).

Your gym example is interesting. If you go to the gym and work to get a beach body, you most likely are doing that because you want to show it off on the beach. Does that mean that if you try to reverse-engineer an effect you are doing it because you like the effect but don't want to pay the creator for it?

If that is correct, then are you advocating that people try to reverse-engineer effects rather that pay for them?

Oh shut up!

Nice.

Huzzah!!!!!! *throws arms up in the air, letting it rain down the bloodied shoes of children past*

Your correct Ethics can’t be measured, with that said it makes everything you have been debating not what your doing is not debating its just flat out arguing the same damn points like a broken record.

I didn't say that ethics couldn't be measured, I said it should not be a comparative issue. That is, it shouldn't make a difference what other people are doing (e.g. youtube exposure, etc.) when deciding whether what you are doing is ethical.

Anyway, to say not having enough money is a rationalization is a very arrogant thing to say. What if I lived in India where it costs me three hundred dollars to ship a single 25 dollar dvd from the states to myself. Then after paying for all that find out the dvd is utter crap. Its called EMPATHY person.

I didn't mean it to be arrogant and I apologize if I came across that way.

My point here is that doing the right thing should apply to everyone regardless of how little or how much money they have, how old or how young they are, how experienced they are.

I do empathize with zynder. I gave him my best advice and told him to buy magic books. I'm not sure the counter advice (which you seem to advocate) to watch a preview video over and over again for 16 hours to figure out the method is really helpful either. And I know that neither you or I will advise him to search the net for tutorials or illegal downloads.

Wow I don’t even have to dicredit your theory that you are buying Plot, Patter, and Method. You just did it yourself, if I reverse engineer and create my own method to achieve the same plot, then use the same patter but a different method. According to you that is unethical. BS

If you are smart enough to come up with your own method, I would hope you are smart enough to come up with your own patter and presentation.

First of all Fearson did let Mr. Mesika use the hookup for the sunglasses, but that was it. He wasn’t given permission to use it for tarntula. But my reason for commenting now is to say your fickler then my cat.

Actually, Mr. Mesika purchased the rights to the hook-up or at least that's what he says in the Tarantula DVD (or at least that is what I recall).
 

RealityOne

Elite Member
Nov 1, 2009
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In the end it really comes down to one question.

Is it the best choice from an ethical perspective to reverse-engineer someone's effect and then perform it without paying the creator?

Think before you answer.
 
so who died and deputized everyone to the moraltiy police?

i have never seen a bunch of magicians reduced to a group of quibbling self rightious children faster than the subject of morality and ethics.

I swear... perform one effect without paying for a dvd and your all ready to fry someone at the stake!

honestly... what stake do you have in someone elses work?

are you getting residuals off their sales? no! Let them worry about their own.

this entire subject has been blown way the hell out of porportion and god forbid a magician to not act like a self rightious bastard.

as i said you cant police this kind of thing so then to each to decide theor own path.
 

RealityOne

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Nov 1, 2009
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Just to refute any suggestion that I'm a self-rightous wacko, I'm copying the following from the Society of American Magician's Code of Ethics (see #2 and #3 which are bolded):

All members of the Society of American Magicians agree to:

1) Oppose the willful exposure to the public of any principles of the Art of Magic, or the methods employed in any magic effect or illusion.

2) Display ethical behavior in the presentation of magic to the public and in our conduct as magicians, including not interfering with or jeopardizing the performance of another magician either through personal intervention or the unauthorized use of another's creation.

3) Recognize and respect for rights of the creators, inventors, authors, and owners of magic concepts, presentations, effects and literature, and their rights to have exclusive use of, or to grant permission for the use by others of such creations.


4) Discourage false or misleading statements in the advertising of effects, and literature, merchandise or actions pertaining to the magical arts.

5) Discourage advertisement in magic publications for any magical apparatus, effect, literature or other materials for which the advertiser does not have commercial rights.

6) Promote the humane treatment and care of livestock used in magical performances.​

I don't think I need to type anything more.
 
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heres the thing. these are morality issues not legal ones (for the most part. exceptions aside.)

the diffrence is you can force/enforce people to follow legal rules and guide lines. Morals you can`t.

you break a law and your a criminal you have a lower moral standard and that just makes you an ass.

regardless what makes it -your- place to decide? Quote all the doctern you want, these are standards we are suppost to hold ourselves to. What works for one person may not apply to another and thus so for a variety of reasons. who are you to decide for them?

if those are your beliefs, then hold to them least you enjoy being called a hypacrite. Leave others to their own paths. you are not the inquisition
 
oh and by the by those rules only work if you are a member of that organization.

break them the worst that happens is they kick you out.

that doesnt reform or prevent any further moral or ethical degregation. it just kicks you out of a club.

food for thought. playing devils advocate
 

RealityOne

Elite Member
Nov 1, 2009
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heres the thing. these are morality issues not legal ones (for the most part. exceptions aside.)

the diffrence is you can force/enforce people to follow legal rules and guide lines. Morals you can`t.

you break a law and your a criminal you have a lower moral standard and that just makes you an ass.

regardless what makes it -your- place to decide? Quote all the doctern you want, these are standards we are suppost to hold ourselves to. What works for one person may not apply to another and thus so for a variety of reasons. who are you to decide for them?

if those are your beliefs, then hold to them least you enjoy being called a hypacrite. Leave others to their own paths. you are not the inquisition

oh and by the by those rules only work if you are a member of that organization.

break them the worst that happens is they kick you out.

that doesnt reform or prevent any further moral or ethical degregation. it just kicks you out of a club.

food for thought. playing devils advocate

William:

I agree that nobody can enforce ethics. As the saying goes, ethics is what you do when nobody is looking.

However, I do think you can educate people as to what I (and the SAM) consider to be ethical behavior and the reasons that support acting in accordance with those ethics. I don't think that doing that is acting as self- appointed morality police or instigating an inquisition.

Here is my question to you...

Do you personally think it is OK for you to reverse-engineer effects and perform them (without paying the creator) or do you personally think the better choice is purchase the effect before performing it?

I know you don't want to be telling others what to do and I understand that. I also understand that you believe what is right for is not necessarily right for others. Nonetheless, I'm interested in what you would personally.
 
Mar 29, 2008
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David,

I do think that it is okay to perform an effect that I "figured out", just as it is okay for someone to print something free after I paid for it. I noticed you danced around that ethical issue from my last post.

You approach things in a very capitalist way - but I don't see you paying the creator for your Youtube posts for every hit you get, nor did you ask permission to use them and post them?

I find it odd you keep mentioning "autograph" by Justin Miller, as he mentions that the effect was inspired by a few others - and that it contains ideas of Doc Eason's Anniversary Waltz and Ryan Swiggert's Kick Back - yet neither of those guys get money when Justin sells his effect which was created from THOSE exact plots. Justin even mentions another young man's name in the approach to his effect...but no money goes to him either. Why would it? Well...according to you, it would be unethical to learn how something is done, and use it to perform an effect? I guess that is unless you tweak it and put it out as your own and have people pay for it? (This is no slam on JM, just on your concept of what is ethical).

What if I learn something from a video I didn't intend on learning, but it was done so poorly, I just realize the method...do I have to send a cheque to the creator? Am I not allowed to use the method or idea unless I do? It seems like MONEY is they key concern of morality to you, when most effects aren't credited properly in the first place.

I think if someone is putting a video out there, and doesn't edit it well enough to protect the secret - then they themselves have broke the magicians code:

"As a magician I promise never to reveal the secret of any illusion to a non-magician, unless that one swears to uphold the Magician's Oath in turn. I promise never to perform any illusion for any non-magician without first practicing the effect until I can perform it well enough to maintain the illusion of magic."

You keep blaming the people who are the bi-product of this, not the person that does or creates an effect that can be figured out by watching the performance or camera work. Cause and effect pal. The cause is MAGIC MALPRACTICE - the effect is that people will figure it out and not pay for it.

So, ethically, I think you worry to much about the producer of the effects, and not about how the producer also has an ethical responsiblity to NOT put out half baked ideas and have people pay for them...to NOT sell pipe dreams...to sell effects that aren't in violation of so much magic theory they that are USELESS.

You come across like a capitalist elitist that is trying to protect magic...but you are just enabling. There is a middle road here...and I won't be told that I am a bad person, or unethical because you think I should pay for every single effect I choose to do.

David, I think it is disappointing you are taking this side - as I don't think sharing ideas is wrong. You misquoted me on my last post to try and make it like we agree...I don't think it is wrong to post quotes, or for us to share ideas - not because I can't afford magic, or don't want to pay, but because magic has become too much business, and not enough of a brotherhood.

When magic becomes more about protecting the secret, and making strong magic stronger - and magicians don't publish every idea under the sun, but actual intelligent design - I will pay out the nose...but until then, I will sample the platter before I pay for the meal. AS IT IS MY PROTECTION...MY ETHICAL PROTECTION AGAINST THOSE THAT WANT ME TO PAY FOR BAD MAGIC!

Get a grip young man - the world is not black and white - I know it is wrong to steal food...or medicine...but if my family was sick or starving - EVEN YOU WOULD STEAL for that cause. Surely, magic effects being figured out is not as serious, but the moral is the same. It isn't stealing when the ends justify the means...and the ends is that I don't want to pay mad money for bad magic. I paid $300 for the A of A DVD's, and I know I might take heat for this (after 10 years of performance experience, 4 nights a week, in close up, I think I have the right to judge what is good and bad) but those DVD's were NOT worth that kinda money. The magic in them was NOT what I expected from PH, hell, PH was HARDLY in them. Sure...lots of cool toys for kids in school...but for a worker, that has and loves and PAID for the books....NOT a good investment.

CAN I HAVE MY MONEY BACK - I DON'T USE ONE EFFECT...NOT ONE~!

Is that ethical? Buyer beware right? I agree - and how I am aware of my purchase...you guessed it...I try to see the goods first. If I figure out a freebie in the process...that is life. I have bought some stinkers, so it all works out in the wash.

In the end - I don't think I have EVER taken something from a magician without paying him one way or another. I got DUPS of Lee Asher's orignal VHS tapes - when it went to DVD, I bought them. I got the original of Ammar's Easy to Master VHS tapes...then duped them to DVD. Both artists got money from me - and I wouldn't have known about Lee if it weren't for the VHS tapes...so ask him if he thinks it was bad that people occasionally grab a freebie.

Regardless, it is about figuring it out - I don't go out of my way to do it, but I have done so - and just like music...if I like one song (trick), then I will buy the album - if not, well, I got a freebie that I didn't get ripped for.

THE END.


PS - Did you see the thread with Erdnase being given away for free on Genii's site...haha, CLASSIC punchline to this joke of a thread.
 
wait.. so what about jam sessions david? so you mean to say its wrong for magicians to get together and hold jam sessions together? we are jamming about material that possibly wasnt paid for by all involved.

what if i go to a friends house and watch his "and then some" video (for example) and learn a new trick from it. Am I now stealing since I learned something from my friends video?

please advise
 
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