Smoke & Mirrors v4 // Green

Feb 4, 2008
959
3
Smoke&Mirrors v.4//Green (AKA Dan & Dave signature series)

Where to buy: $5.95 / deck http://store.dananddave.com/green-playing-cards-dan-dave.html



Information about my reviewing methods: http://www.penguinmagic.com/discuss/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=156760

Initial Impression:
Get some before they are gone. I thought I should mention that upfront. Theory 11 is already out of stock and Dan&Dave’s website should have them up for one last run this coming Friday at 9:00 AM PST. Obviously I won’t have the time to do a longevity review before that happens so I will probably interject some conjecture into this one.

Overall I like these cards quite a bit. These scored very highly on the fan, spring/snap and dribble yet relatively poorly on the one card glide and the 2+O. These cards are just slippery smooth and somewhat hard to keep control of but I think as soon as they break in those two categories should improve.

The Look:
They wanted to go with a retro look on this one. It is a very minimalist design and the color selection works well with this deck. The back design has a D&D logo on it and that might dissuade a few who don’t want to look like a fanboy. Nevertheless, it is not completely obnoxious advertising as overall the deck has a very subdued look to it. If any one casts an accusatory look your way you can always say the two Ds stand for “Dude I’m Dangerous.”

The artwork on the court cards is similar to standard USPCC except for the color selection. Instead of red, blue, black, and yellow dominating the artwork the v.4 uses a red, black, and green. They look similar in character to how the Bee stingers used a maroon, black, and grey although the detail work is a bit different. Overall a nice look in my opinion. Two Jokers come in each pack. They have disregarded the classic jester image in lieu of a two way image of a mysterious magician in top hat and cane. It’s pretty cool and the idea of a two way joker is new to me. Overall I like the look of these quite a bit. They are perhaps a bit understated for a formal closeup set in a classic parlor but they are perfect for casual performers.

Card construction:
These definitely have a different feel to them than the standard USPCC stock and finish. It’s hard to describe exactly how they feel different…they just do. For one, when you snap a card it just has a different “sound.” This may have to do with Dan&Dave’s desire to create an “eco-friendly” deck made of recycled paper. My thought is that, to have done such a thing and yet maintained high performance standards, should be applauded.

Handling
A mixed reaction overall. My sense is that these cards will perform admirably once broken in.

Fanning: 9.5?
A beautifully fanning deck. I hesitated to give it a 9.5 since I’m not known for my fanning prowess but it sure felt, and looked, nicer than a Bicycle 808.

Spring Moves: 8.5
These snapped just a tad less stiffly than the UV500 stock. When you feel this deck it seems as if the Bucks put a lot of thought into finding the right blend between power and fanning smoothness. That seems to always be a difficult balance so I give them kudos for that.

Dribbles: 9
Yet another high mark for this deck. I have tended to notice that stiffer stocks require a lot of controlled hand strength to dribble smoothly but these felt almost as effortless as with cards with much lighter stocks.

Crimp hold and recovery: 8/6
Here is where I started to have a few concerns. The crimp held quite nicely but I could still detect a minor bend in the card after attempting to smooth out the crimp. This may be where the recycled paper becomes a bit of a letdown. We will see if unintentional crimps begin to become a problem. I’ll pass judgment after the longevity review. Having a poor score here seemed to negatively effect the Massa deck but not the Arrco so I hesitate to use this as a predictor of longevity.

Single card glides: 7.5
A surprisingly low score considering the high marks on the fan, spring, and dribble. There is just something about the finish itself that made it problematic. The top card glides pulled a little better than a Bicycle 808 but the bottom card glides were problematic. In particular I found it difficult for my pinky to get a grip on the card for a glide along the bottom longitudinal axis. There are two sleight in particular that this affects. Two moves that have been growing in popularity over the last few years….

2+Card Obfuscations: 7
Various opposing corner displays seemed more difficult to get a solid grip on. I’m not sure why this was. Perhaps the smooth finish made it tougher to get in proper position? Usually I find stiffer stocks are the key to solid spins but not the case here. Hugard and Braue push-off DLs would pull fine but going from there into a corner display was tenuous. Again the ultra smooth finish made it to slick to be secure when holding the cards at one corner. Derek Dingle DLs were fine. Diving Board Doubles were decent though not exceptional. Overall I was a little surprised at the performance here but most of the difficulties were due to the ultra smooth finish. It certainly performed as well as a standard Bike 808 so if you perform high end DLs and spin moves with that deck you should get similar performance with the v.4

XCM cuts: Multi packet cuts will be about the same as with most of the uber smooth USPCC decks and if you are into complex fans you should be quite happy with these.

Card Splitting and Gaff construction/availability: Each deck comes with one double backer. You will be able to use a standard Bicycle double facer on all cards but the court cards and the Ace of Spades. If you need to make specialty gaffs these cards are one of the easier cards to split. I have even managed to split perfectly(meaning two usable sides) a few times. If you make homemade gaffs grab an extra deck and tear it up!

Who should not buy?: People who don’t want to pay $6.00 for a deck. People who like stiff springy stocks may want to pass on these as they soften up quite quickly.

Who should buy these?: I think anyone who wants to try out just how good a deck printed on recycled paper can get you should pick these up. Anyone practicing an Anaconda Dribble or who like soft, smooth fanning decks will likely love these.

Final Thoughts:
I hate to conjecture to much but I feel I must considering the limited availability of these decks. Most of the issues I had with this deck came down to the super smooth finish. While it feels great in your hands it can make certain sleights and moves a little problematic. My guess is that it should break in and these moves will get easier after a few hours of practice. I had thought the same thing with the Tally-hos but I continued to have difficulty with that deck. I wound up classing the Tally-ho as a kind of “specialty” deck. With that said remember that the Tally-ho just doesn’t have the same stock stiffness as these. My guess is that that stiff stock should kick in and glide moves, doubles, and spin moves will get easier. I will eventually give you a definite answer on that but by the time you get the word it will be too late. In the mean time my recommendation is to give these boys a chance. I sense a lot of potential in these cards!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jan 8, 2008
3
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Correct me if i'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the stock of these cards are in fact thinner than standard 808 Bikes. And from my understanding, the general trend is that thicker cards have stiffer stocks. If that's the case, how can the V4's have a stiffer stock if they're thinner?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Feb 4, 2008
959
3
Correct me if i'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the stock of these cards are in fact thinner than standard 808 Bikes. And from my understanding, the general trend is that thicker cards have thicker stocks. If that's the case, how can the V4's have a stiffer stock if they're thinner?


The stock is in fact thinner than a Bike. Not by much, as I said about 2 cards worth tops. I don't have the best Calipers in the world but I just rechecked and I have v.4s at 15mm and 808s at 15.5 mm.

As for the second part of your question...one would assume so but that is not always the case. I used to think the same when my only experience with a stiff deck was the UV500. Those are stiffer and thicker cards. But three of the stiffest cards I have reviewed, the Fournier, the Anglo Rug, and the Steamboat 999s all are a bit thinner than the 808. The qualities of the paper really determine both thickness and "springiness". Just think of wood for a moment. An oak tree is much heavier than a pine if measured in equal volumes. On the same note a limb of an oak can be bent and sprung back more than a pine. So I have found that the quality of the paper and glues seem to effect the performance much more than thickness.

On a side note remember that I'm trying to compare these to Bike 808 because most magicians are familiar with the 808. The downside of using 808s as a comparison is the poor quality control put into those decks. While I find that, on average, they come in about 15.5mm and about 92 grams those scores vary much more than any other cards on the magic market. Ideally I'd make comparisons to a Fournier 505 or 605 because of the high quality control in those cards but most North American magicians have never even touched one of those let alone practiced with them on a day to day basis.

Hope that answers your questions.

P.S. I just realized that the second run of v.4s is available right here at T11 so no need to go to the D&D website if you don't want to.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Apr 17, 2010
9
0
Massachusetts
This is my first specialty deck I bought. Until now, the best cards I've used are the good ol' bicycles. I haven't gotten the deck yet, but I want to know if this is a good first buy. I know that Stingers, Split Spades, Centurions, etc. are good too. I bought this mainly because Dan & Dave made them, and they seem to know their stuff. What are your thoughts?
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,877
2,944
I always wonder why people ask if something they've already purchased is a good buy? Why not just wait for it to get there, you're already committed anyway, and really, it's going to come down to your own preference.

These are good cards, yes, but shouldn't you ask that before you buy them?
 
Apr 17, 2010
9
0
Massachusetts
Normally yeah, but these sell out like ice cream at a hot day on the beach. It was now or never. Also, I am realizing that this should be in another section, I apologize.
 
Feb 4, 2008
959
3
This is my first specialty deck I bought. Until now, the best cards I've used are the good ol' bicycles. I haven't gotten the deck yet, but I want to know if this is a good first buy. I know that Stingers, Split Spades, Centurions, etc. are good too. I bought this mainly because Dan & Dave made them, and they seem to know their stuff. What are your thoughts?

I would say so. It's a limited edition deck so it will rise in collection value no matter what. As for performance? A lot of that depends on your personal style, experience level, how strong are your hands ect. Also longevity is a big part of my reviewing process. Currently I'm doing a longevity review on the Anglo Rug deck so I won't have a chance to answer that for a month or so(depending on how long the Anglos survive my abuse;)) My sense is that once the get broken in you will be quite happy with them. It's been my experience that Dan and Dave products are generally worth the price you pay. In addition their magic and flourishing I get a sense, from the offerings on their website, that they have good taste in cards. These guys know what USPCC is capable of and within those limits, and the limits of what can be done on recycles pulp, they put together a well thought out deck.
 
Feb 4, 2008
959
3
I always wonder why people ask if something they've already purchased is a good buy? Why not just wait for it to get there, you're already committed anyway, and really, it's going to come down to your own preference.

These are good cards, yes, but shouldn't you ask that before you buy them?

Actually I thought it was a fine question. Especially if this is the first time he has spent that kind of money on a deck of cards. When he gets, whether he likes it or not, it might be nice to know how others rate these cards in relation to other decks on the market in a similar price range.
 

S.G

Feb 9, 2010
664
1
Maybe you got a different batch than me. My cards are really soft and bend really easily. Weird...

-G
 
Feb 4, 2008
959
3
Maybe you got a different batch than me. My cards are really soft and bend really easily. Weird...

-G
Yep. I've noticed that as well. This is the out of the box review and in a blindfold test it was stiffer than the Bike, what can I say? But I have played with them a bit and they seem to soften up pretty quickly. I won't be able to get more specific until I get serious about the longevity review.
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,877
2,944
But why?

"Is this a good product?" is a perfectly reasonable question to ask before the purchase. That's product research. Afterwards it's just justification for having already spent money.

These questions should be asked long before you get out the credit card.
 
Feb 4, 2008
959
3
But why?

"Is this a good product?" is a perfectly reasonable question to ask before the purchase. That's product research. Afterwards it's just justification for having already spent money.

These questions should be asked long before you get out the credit card.
Oh sure. It should be asked before a purchase but after isn't such a bad question either. It will help inform your decisions later on.

Example: He buys the v.4s and hates them. If they are regarded as one of the best decks available in the $5-$7 price range then perhaps expensive specialty decks just are not his thing. He can save money in the future and just stick with the trusty old 808s.

All I can do at this point is stick with my initial recommendations. If you are willing to pay that kind of money on a deck then I would go for it. I have some concerns on the durability of this deck and how they will perform once broken in but none of that will be answered until I get a chance to do the longevity review. The longevity portion of this review won't be done until the initial runs are sold out. It will hopefully be useful to those interested in buying on an after market auction site but in the mean time I'm happy to offer up the best suggestions I can based on my experiences reviewing other decks and my initial impressions of the v.4.

If anyone has been hitting their v.4s pretty hard it would be great to hear from you. As I mentioned before, right now I am kind of focused on the Anglo Rug deck so I won't get a chance to do an official update on the v.4s for a while yet.
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,877
2,944
Oh sure. It should be asked before a purchase but after isn't such a bad question either. It will help inform your decisions later on.

Example: He buys the v.4s and hates them. If they are regarded as one of the best decks available in the $5-$7 price range then perhaps expensive specialty decks just are not his thing. He can save money in the future and just stick with the trusty old 808s.

Again, that's a question to ask before your next purchase, not after your last purchase. Also, it comes down to preference most of the time, which means you have to try out each deck individually to see if you like it. Unless you're just collecting.
 
Feb 4, 2008
959
3
Again, that's a question to ask before your next purchase, not after your last purchase. Also, it comes down to preference most of the time, which means you have to try out each deck individually to see if you like it. Unless you're just collecting.
We are getting off topic. Questions on my methodology or debates about the value are perfectly welcome but more appropriate on my template. If the question is pertaining to the v.4 I'm happy to answer that here. In the mean time just let it be known that I am happy to offer any advice I can and I'll be as honest as possible. Heck I'll chit chat about cards all day long! The only thing better than that is actually practicing with them!:cool:

I'll work at getting my other reviews transferred over in the next few days.
Cheers everyone!
 
Apr 17, 2010
9
0
Massachusetts
Just got them today, and I couldn't be happier with them. I will see how long they last me, like you said, but I can definitely see why they are so popular. Very smooth and crisp. I don't know how I ever used the old bicycles. :cool:
 
Apr 17, 2010
9
0
Massachusetts
Also I saw your comment about glide problems. Personally, I have no problem with the glides whatsoever. In fact, I find that it tends to be easier to get the card(s) out when I glide because of the super smooth finish. Maybe you need to moisten your fingers a little more?
 
Feb 4, 2008
959
3
Smoke & Mirrors v.4 1 week update:

Well let me start by saying that this one week update almost didn’t happen. Some of the control issues I had experienced in the OOB review continued for about 1/2 a week before things finally calmed down and the deck broke in. Even at this point the S&M v.4s are not my style of deck but I am happy I stuck with it as there is a lot to appreciate in this deck. Now just so we are clear on what seemed to be the problem let me explain just how slick they were OOB. You could hold the deck pinched between the thumb and fingers and with a squeeze the deck would literally spit out between the top and bottom card. I like a smooth deck as much as the next guy but that over did it a bit much. I use several sleights in which the deck is gripped with as little as two fingers, thus freeing up my other fingers to perform some secret moves. Obviously techniques like that are quite difficult to control when the deck is that slick. I am happy to report that the v.4s have mellowed out and are now beginning to perform much better.

Fanning: 9
They are still fantastically smooth fanning deck though not quite what they were OOB. This is probably a good thing in a way as I attribute most of the difficulties I was having with the super smooth finish.

Spring: 6
Okay my OOB review of these was just that. Out of the Box. I put most decks through a blindfold check of overall stiffness the moment they get OOB. So at that time the deck did feel distinctly stiffer than a bike 808. A short time later(after about a day of use) these softened up quite a bit. So the first update is to give people who appreciate a stiffer stock the heads up that these cards soften up quite quickly. I attribute some of this quick change in the character of the stock to the fact that this is a deck printed on recycled paper. I have yet to handle a deck that softened up as quickly and as drastically.

Dribble: 9.5
As soon as the deck softened up they were in a class by themselves when it comes to dribbling. Indeed had I done a mid week review I may have given them a 10 in this category. These cards just feel great when dribbling. My previous favorite dribbler was the Tally-ho but the v.4s will smoke a Tally-ho in an Anaconda flourish. If that is a flourish you are interested in learning the v.4s are my current recommendation for a practice deck.

Crimp Hold/Recovery: 7/6
This is where I think the recycled paper seems to hurt this deck the most. This deck seems to hold a crimp as well as a Bike 808 but its recovery is fairly poor. The deck has definitely developed quite a few unintentional crimps meaning that intentional crimps will have to be strong in order to find quickly. Overall a deck with poor crimp recovery generally seems to age quicker than others and depending on just how long they last will determine just how “eco friendly” they wind up being.

Single Card Glide: 7
Top card glides are performing a bit better than an 808 and the bottom card glides are performing a bit worse than an 808. Overall I split the difference and gave it a 7.


2+Obfuscations: 6.5
The Hugard and Braue push-off, the Derek Dingle DL, and center doubles all performed about on par with an 808 but the soft flexing stock seemed to make Diving Board DL a bit less “springy” and more “floppy”, and opposite corner spins(floops, shapeshifters ect.) a bit more tenuous to control. The ultra smooth finish also make single corner displays more difficult. All in all, once you get used to the deck you will get about the same performance in 2+Os than you would with a Bike 808.

Additional thoughts: I personally like springier stiffer decks and while the v.4 doesn’t fit my personal style I am really beginning to enjoy it. It is nice to grab a deck that feels and performs smooth and silky every once in a while. You may sacrifice some control issues on high end slights, in particular I have been having a few issues with clip-shifts and one handed pop-outs, but once it breaks in it is not so bad that you can’t adjust your handling to suit this deck. If smooth and silky is what you look for in a deck I expect this deck will become a favorite for you. In many ways this deck seems to have achieved (handling wise) what the Massa deck did except that the Massa went to pieces in less than a week and the v.4s still seem to have plenty of life left in them. Overall, for those who like smooth fanning and dribbling decks the v.4s will be a welcome addition to your card inventory.

I have amended the "who should buy (not buy) recommendations to reflect what I have learned in this update.
 
Feb 4, 2008
959
3
Also I saw your comment about glide problems. Personally, I have no problem with the glides whatsoever. In fact, I find that it tends to be easier to get the card(s) out when I glide because of the super smooth finish. Maybe you need to moisten your fingers a little more?
Just noticed this and thought it needed a direct response. I mentioned this in my template under methodology but it is easy to miss....

One of the weaknesses in my methodology is the single card glide. I think giving it a rating is important, so that is why I do it, but I also think that this category is most effected by hand size, moisture levels in your skin, what type of soaps and hand crème you use, what climate you live in, ect. Thus, while I rate it as best as I can it is my most problematic category.

For clarification I use 4 different sleights to rate this category (I won't name specifics for fear of tipping the method on these sleights). The sleights are all one handed single card glides that peel the top card to the right and left and the bottom card along the length and width. I do not rate two handed techniques (ie. the deck is held in on hand and the other hand glides the card) as I think those are pretty easy maneuvers for any deck.

Last thing to note; I don't have particularly long fingers so, particularly on the longitudinal axis of the bottom card glides, I don't have much surface area in contact with the card. Thus, for me, stiffer decks tend to handle these types of glides with a bit more control.

With all that said I did notice more control with these cards once they broke in. That didn't necessarily translate into the score since I score moves on an individual basis but moves performed in combination with one and other did improve. All in all, I do rate them on par with the Bike 808 and there is nothing shameful in the way an 808 performs....there is just better cards on the market. While the v.4 don't IMO beat an 808 in this category they do in several other categories. For one, I'm usually retiring an 808 after a week of abuse that I just put these through and the v4s are still going strong.
 
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