What is this trick called?

Dec 14, 2007
817
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I understand your point. You're just wrong :)

here is the difference.

If I discover a trick that no one else that I know of is doing, and I polish it into something special it doesn't matter if I do it exactly as written or not. Its in published source and I found it through my own efforts.

If you, at some point in the future, find the same trick unaware that anyone else is doing it and perform it as is, then (with a few exceptions, such as material commercially and artistically linked as propritary to another- such as the exclusive coterie), you can do it, exactly as written. You found it through your own work and effort. Good for you.

But if you see ME do a trick that I found and honed and then go out and intentionally find the source so you can do it too - this is NOT a product of ANY work on your part. You are merely copying me and following DIRECTLY in my footsteps. You are taking my work, my vision, my effort and offering nothing in return.

How is this artistic? How is this good for magic in any way?

Seems to me that if you see something I do and want to do it - and its not something being sold on every website in the world - rather than going behind my back and trying to find out what it is, the least you can do is ask ME.

Afterall, if it weren't for me - you wouldn't be wanting to do the trick in the first place.

The trick was always there.

Seems to me the change in this status stemmed from my work.

Should you be able to take that without consequence?
Should you feel good about it?
 
Dec 14, 2007
817
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And that, draven, is a cop out.

There is plenty of fodder for real debate here - most recently the notion I hjave proposed that tricks are hiding everywhere and ready to be picked, the onlt difference seems to be coveting them because someone else has already picked them. Is that right? (Please refer to my previous post, it was stated more clearly there.)

How about this: some guy moves into your hometown and comes to one of your shows. In a week he starts performing the all of the tricks you do that he can track down sources for.

Is this a happy day for you?

What if he confesses to having never heard of any of those tricks before watching you. Do you feel a little used - taken advantage of?
 
There's absolutely nothing original in my act that I am responsible for creating.

The only thing I have is my own patter and style of presentation.

If the guy did my exact act, word for word, then yes I'd be a bit upset.

But I can't get pissed if some mark decides he wants to drive nails up his nose. And why would I?
 
Dec 14, 2007
817
2
I suppose if someones act consisted of only hackneyed or even classic material they would feel that way.

And I'm not suggesting one cannot ethically perform all pervasive tricks - linking rings, blockhead, triumph - these are things every mystery entertainer should know as a matter of course, based on only the most cursory of research and experience. (Though why one would want to build an act out of material that makes them indistinguishable from the pack is beyond me. I guess that think a funny hat and a different assortment of orben lines makes them 'unique'.)

But one day, draven, you may decide you want to do something different from the standard fair everyone else does. You may look in decremps or poinsin or prevost and find an idea that you've never seen or heard of. You may even make it one of your unique selling points and get known as the guy who 'does that thing.'

Then, when some kid sees your act, comes on here and asks what that tricks is and someone points them to the book you learned it from, you might feel a little differently. When they start approaching the same venues you work or someone comes up to you after your show and they say 'you did the amazing copyman's stunt pretty well. Do you guys all go to the same school to learn this stuff. We had him at out picnic. Do you do picnics? How much do you charge? Wow, the amazing mr copyman was a lot cheaper than that. Sure I'll take your card, but we kind of have a limited budget. Can you do it for $75. That's what he charged AND he did balloons for the kids. And this cool trick where he pulled a thread from his stomach, stopped his pulse, ate needles and made a crushed soda can fill up and put a cap in a bottle. Will you do those too? If not, there's a clown we can get who does most of them. He charges $80, so we save him for special occasions."

How can something be 'magic' when everyone and their brother can - and does - do it?

Seems contradictory to me.
 

RickEverhart

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Sep 14, 2008
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I am not trying to take sides here but Brad has very valid points in his last post. This happens ALL of the time to magicians in our area where there are about 25 of us that all perform within a given area. It makes it real hard to get back out there and try to sell yourself for the money that you deserve when "Joe Blow" who copies everyone else is doing it for half price because he is just starting out and could care less that he is getting $50 bucks and hour. To him that is "great money".
 

Luis Vega

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Mar 19, 2008
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I suppose if someones act consisted of only hackneyed or even classic material they would feel that way.

And I'm not suggesting one cannot ethically perform all pervasive tricks - linking rings, blockhead, triumph - these are things every mystery entertainer should know as a matter of course, based on only the most cursory of research and experience. (Though why one would want to build an act out of material that makes them indistinguishable from the pack is beyond me. I guess that think a funny hat and a different assortment of orben lines makes them 'unique'.)

But one day, draven, you may decide you want to do something different from the standard fair everyone else does. You may look in decremps or poinsin or prevost and find an idea that you've never seen or heard of. You may even make it one of your unique selling points and get known as the guy who 'does that thing.'

Then, when some kid sees your act, comes on here and asks what that tricks is and someone points them to the book you learned it from, you might feel a little differently. When they start approaching the same venues you work or someone comes up to you after your show and they say 'you did the amazing copyman's stunt pretty well. Do you guys all go to the same school to learn this stuff. We had him at out picnic. Do you do picnics? How much do you charge? Wow, the amazing mr copyman was a lot cheaper than that. Sure I'll take your card, but we kind of have a limited budget. Can you do it for $75. That's what he charged AND he did balloons for the kids. And this cool trick where he pulled a thread from his stomach, stopped his pulse, ate needles and made a crushed soda can fill up and put a cap in a bottle. Will you do those too? If not, there's a clown we can get who does most of them. He charges $80, so we save him for special occasions."

How can something be 'magic' when everyone and their brother can - and does - do it?

Seems contradictory to me.



I don`t think everyone and their brother can do what Draven do...I have seen his videos of his performances and I really feel that "IT" in his performance...

a lot of magicians use the old good tricks...but I`ll tell you what...Lance Burton does a great Cups and Balls routine...I`ve seen this routine done a lot of times by other magicians...but his is the only one I remember...is because aside from presentation and skills, Lance has it`s spirit and feeling in this routine that`s what makes it unique...

it`s the same with Draven...the show it`s not only the tricks and the patter...is production like the way he dress and the way he handle the audience...to be honest he presentation of the straitjacket escape it`s the only one I remember now...

I guess nobody can stop a kid to go to his show...and steal the phrases, the tricks and the way he dress...but no-one portrays Draven than Draven...people are not fools...they will feel if the jokes and phrases are scripted...and if somebody has seen Draven before, the kid will have the risk of getting called out by the spectator...it happens...and eventually will happen...

maybe you are right that some people will go for the cheaper version...but Draven is worth the price and his experience is something the kid will never have...
 

Luis Vega

Elite Member
Mar 19, 2008
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I am not trying to take sides here but Brad has very valid points in his last post. This happens ALL of the time to magicians in our area where there are about 25 of us that all perform within a given area. It makes it real hard to get back out there and try to sell yourself for the money that you deserve when "Joe Blow" who copies everyone else is doing it for half price because he is just starting out and could care less that he is getting $50 bucks and hour. To him that is "great money".

that`s why I try to get connections and clients and I treat them very nice and I make them feel special, so if somebody comes and charges less than me, my clients hopefully will think twice before replacing me...I heard something like "It`s not about how much you charge...it`s about what you have to offer...the benefits".
 
I'm not suggesting one cannot ethically perform all pervasive tricks - linking rings, blockhead, triumph - these are things every mystery entertainer should know as a matter of course, based on only the most cursory of research and experience. (Though why one would want to build an act out of material that makes them indistinguishable from the pack is beyond me. I guess that think a funny hat and a different assortment of orben lines makes them 'unique'.)

Well while the material in my act is certainly public domain, I think it's the way I present it that is unique to me as a character. Of course my act, persona, and character are constantly evolving so whose to say that next year at this time I'll be doing the same thing? I probably won't, given grounds that what I am doing now is not exactly what I was doing last year at this time. My act, my material, my inspirations, and my performances are always corner stones to the next construction that I plan to build upon it.

But one day, Draven, you may decide you want to do something different from the standard fair everyone else does.

Already do to a point. In so much as I attempt to provide my own presentations to the classic effects such as blockhead. But I do aspire to create my own unique effects too.

You may look in decremps or poinsin or prevost and find an idea that you've never seen or heard of. You may even make it one of your unique selling points and get known as the guy who 'does that thing.'

Then, when some kid sees your act, comes on here and asks what that tricks is and someone points them to the book you learned it from, you might feel a little differently.
Perhaps. But I doubt it. The way I see it, if I'm performing something as it was published with out changing anything or adding my own creative input at all, then who ever is fortunate enough to find my source, is at just as much advantage as I was when I found it.

I still feel I won't be upset unless they steal my act wholesale including my own unique presentation, patter, or verbage.

When they start approaching the same venues you work or someone comes up to you after your show and they say 'you did the amazing copyman's stunt pretty well.

I don't see how this is any different than people coming up to me and relating my act to Criss Angel, on grounds that he's one of the only names that they know. Yeah it's a slap in the face, I consider myself to be more humble, but that's neither here or there.

Do you guys all go to the same school to learn this stuff. We had him at out picnic. Do you do picnics? How much do you charge? Wow, the amazing mr copyman was a lot cheaper than that. Sure I'll take your card, but we kind of have a limited budget. Can you do it for $75. That's what he charged AND he did balloons for the kids. And this cool trick where he pulled a thread from his stomach, stopped his pulse, ate needles and made a crushed soda can fill up and put a cap in a bottle. Will you do those too? If not, there's a clown we can get who does most of them. He charges $80, so we save him for special occasions."

I don't know about you, but I never give out a quote knee jerk like that without building value, asking qualifying questions, and making sure I'm the right guy for the job. By the time I do get to a quote, I just don't experience this quoted situation all that much.

I also don't believe in performing a weaker show just because there MAY be a magician in my audience. I'm sure that's a subject you'll expand upon too.


How can something be 'magic' when everyone and their brother can - and does - do it?

Seems contradictory to me.

No Brad, not contradictory. It's the challenge. How can it indeed? I suppose that is the question that separates the men from the boys. If you can answer that then you're closer to being a professional than an amateur, and that's the question EVERY artist should be asking themselves, right after they answer "And Why should the audience care?"

Balls back in your court.
 
Dec 23, 2007
1,579
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Fredonia, NY
How can something be 'magic' when everyone and their brother can - and does - do it?

Seems contradictory to me.

Bill Malone, Michael Ammar, Daryl, and a bunch more

all names of people that perform and Ambitious Card Routine. All perform them successfully, and all have routines that are almost indistinguishable from another. Why? cause sometimes its not all about the trick, its about the performer. Im not saying what tricks you do isn't important just that the performer makes the trick not the other way around. Look at the recent success of Ponta the Smith's dvd. Most of his tricks were of classic plots that he had adapted and innovated to his style and as such, emerged as entirely new looking tricks. Think about the difference between David Blaine doing 2CM "be honest what is it" versus Bill Malone's presentation of Dr. Daley's last trick. similar concepts and tricks but entirely different performing styles and both are incredible in their own right. they dont even look remotely similar. I think you both have valid points but in my opinion people our looking to hire a performer, not a set list.
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,877
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Brad, I think see the problem here. We're not actually disagreeing, not entirely.

I agree that performing an effect as someone else presents it without asking their permission is unethical. I never once said that's what I wanted to do. What I've been saying this entire time is that if I see someone do something that I never realized could be done, then I find a way to do it and create a completely unique way to present it, that's fine.

If I see you do card-to-watermelon, that tells me that a card can be secreted into an impossible location. If I then go out and find ways of accomplishing that effect, then figure out how to get a card into, say, a sealed DVD case, I think that's different enough not to require your permission.

What I'm trying to get across here is that I watch other performers, and if I see them do something that fits my style that I never thought of or was exposed to, I think it's okay to explore that option in performance, as long as the end result is a completely unique presentation. Again, for emphasis, a completely unique presentation.

Which is why I say we're not actually disagreeing, I think you just thought I wouldn't go far enough in differentiating my presentations.

And honestly, I'm not sure I can come up with a presentation of the Exclusive Coterie that would be different enough to Ricky Jay's to stand on its own. But I'm still going to create one as a pet project, even if I never perform it for lay audiences.
 
Dec 14, 2007
817
2
Well while the material in my act is certainly public domain, I think it's the way I present it that is unique to me as a character. Of course my act, persona, and character are constantly evolving so whose to say that next year at this time I'll be doing the same thing? I probably won't, given grounds that what I am doing now is not exactly what I was doing last year at this time. My act, my material, my inspirations, and my performances are always corner stones to the next construction that I plan to build upon it.



Already do to a point. In so much as I attempt to provide my own presentations to the classic effects such as blockhead. But I doubt it. The way I see it, if I'm performing something as it was published with out changing anything or adding my own creative input at all, then who ever is fortunate enough to find my source, is at just as much advantage as I was when I found it.

I still feel I won't be upset unless they steal my act wholesale including my own unique presentation, patter, or verbage.



I don't see how this is any different than people coming up to me and relating my act to Criss Angel, on grounds that he's one of the only names that they know. Yeah it's a slap in the face, I consider myself to be more humble, but that's neither here or there.



I don't know about you, but I never give out a quote knee jerk like that without building value, asking qualifying questions, and making sure I'm the right guy for the job. By the time I do get to a quote, I just don't experience this quoted situation all that much.

I also don't believe in performing a weaker show just because there MAY be a magician in my audience. I'm sure that's a subject you'll expand upon too.




No Brad, not contradictory. It's the challenge. How can it indeed? I suppose that is the question that separates the men from the boys. If you can answer that then you're closer to being a professional than an amateur, and that's the question EVERY artist should be asking themselves, right after they answer "And Why should the audience care?"

Balls back in your court.

Don't know if the quote feature on blackberry will make this more or less confusing but here it goes.

1) While you (and Louis) may think a novel presentation will set you apart from the crowd - the real world does not work that way.

Had a story related from a major cruise ship booker once. He gets tapes from magicians all the time. Pops them in and the moment he sees a straight jacket escape, bowling ball production or one other trick (can't recall which one he singled out specifically) he pops it out and throws it in the trash.

It doesn't matter if you have the vest 'routine' in the world - to the audience its the same thing. And as most of the routines are little more than bits and pieces culled from other peoples routines who culled them from other peoples routines - it establishes my point. The reason most magi do tricks like the jacket is because they say someone else do it first. They THINK they are changing it enough to be different, but ultimately it is all rooted in the same source and it shows.

You might want to argue that he is missing the point - but he's the guy whose buying. He is the point (or, at least, one of them)..

2) You write: who ever is fortunate enough to find my source, is at just as much advantage as I was when I found it. "

You are getting it wrong. He did not find your source. He found YOU. Then he dug around because he wanted to copy you. The source is irrelvant. The impetus is not the idea, not the source, the impetus was YOU. Hence my belief that he should ask you before going off to copy you.

If he found the source on his own having never seen you, I would agree. But that's not what I'm talking about.

3) The criss angel incident is close, but again, not exact. (Depending on what you meant). If you perform and someone mentions another magician, that is what it is.

But if you perform a trick that they have seen that other magician do - then perhaps you should consider finding another trick ESPECIALLY if it were done on tv.

I remember when dc did a trick on tv that I had in my act for years. The moment it aired I took it out of my act. Why be seen as the guy copying the real magician on tv? Maybe that doesn't bother you, but I don't want people to think of magic as a commodity that can be bought at a store. (In spite of what the truth mauy be).

4) Jroberts (I think) mentions malone et all doing ambitious. Classics are classics. But what real world success has daryl had with the ac? What about malone? Have you ever hired malone to work for real people - do you know what he does in that situation.

I do.

But more to the point - did bill get on tv with the ac?

Nope. He got on tv with sam the bellhop - when he was (effectively) the only person on the planet doing it.

It was unique, it was special, it was bill malone's. (In truth, it was frank everhardt who created it but it was bill who had the vision to see its inherent value. He did it on tv and then everyone started doing it.

Again, I ask, HOW IS THAT GOOD FOR BILL, THE COPYIIST WHO WILL BE COMPARED TO BILL OR TO MAGIC?

4) I was not suggesting the imaginary exchange would proceed exactly along those lines, but the dynamic is the same. When everyone does the same thing, then magic is no longer an artn but a commodity. Commodities get sold for the best price.

18) I would never advocate doing anything less than your best for a real show. (A magic convention is another story. Rarely will you see a real world pro do his actual material in his real way when working a convention.)

But you have made my point - the fact that one may even feel the urge to change something knowing a magi was in attendance demonstrates the problem - too many magicians are on the constant prowl for ideas that don't belong to them. In my mind, it doesn't matter if the idea was original to the performer being watched, or not. The onlooker is not working, not doing research. He is using another performer and his work for his own benefit. SHOULDNT HE AT LEAST ASK?!?

X) Clearly we need to make them care. But is making them care harder or easier when they can cross their arms and proclaim 'oh, I've seen this before'.

Sure a smart performer can sometimes overcome this. (I say sometimes, because some audience members will just tune out at that point and if their aren't engaged, it doesn't matter what you do - its all the same ole crap.)
But the question is -

Why do we insist on condoning and fostering behaviors that make us even need to do this?

Would magic be better or worse if every magician did unique material? NOT ORIGINAL, just unique.

I can grab a dozen books from my shelf and we could find enough tricks that every member of this forum could have 15 minuted of diverse material completely different from anything anyone else was doing.

Why do we defend people who want to take the easy way while making it hard on not only themselves but everyone else.

Postscript; christopher, I think our issue is with the use of the word presentation. Changing a dvd case and watermelon is not changing what many people call 'the presentation' per se

Weber said it well, if you see me work and vary my idea, it is different enough when I no longer recognize my idea in your work.

Can we agree on that?
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
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Weber said it well, if you see me work and vary my idea, it is different enough when I no longer recognize my idea in your work.

Can we agree on that?

That is what I'm getting at, yes. The DVD Case thing was what my eyes happened to land on when I looked around the room I'm in for something that would be impossible to put a card into.
 
Dec 23, 2007
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Fredonia, NY
you know there's no RIGHT answer to this. you both have different opinion on the subject and this thread has basically become a stalemate between you two because the fact of the matter is that different people have different opinions and different approaches to magic. Neither may be wrong and neither may be right, So agree to disagree as this is kinda going in circles. Both of you have points and both of you have supporters. Time to call it a draw
 
Clearly Brad's points aren't hitting home for some people, and while the reasons may be varied, I fear they may boil down to:

1) The model of repertoire selection Brad is speaking against is one of the ways you seek out material.

Or

2) You've never been on the other end of this argument.

Let me share a story:

About a year and a half ago, I asked Brad (coincidentally) for help with an idea I had for a show I'm working on. He offered several ideas that would suit my needs and wished me good luck.

I cracked one of the books he recommended, found the routine in there that he mentioned, spent about $100 on the props to practice the routine, and set to work. I then tracked down 3 more sources for this routine over the course of a year, spending close to $250 total and countless hours researching, practicing, and routining this idea out.

I have a routine I'm now doing that's been in print for 60+ years, in a book that any magician worth his salt could (and should) own. It's a routine that is unique to my neck of the woods because no one thought to try it out. I did. I have tweaked it, honed it, and made it something worthwhile.

Recently, I decided to show the local club what I've been doing. I performed this routine in pieces, just to give a taste of it, and was met with a lot of good response. None of the members had ever seen this done before, and most had never heard of it. Two members' reactions stood out:

1) A club member came up to me at a convention not long after. This was exactly what he said: "Hey Pj, I really liked what you did at the meeting...I want to get together with you so you can teach me that thing you did with..." and mentioned the props in the above-mentioned routine. I never once said I'd be willing to part with this routine, and this is not a man I know well.

2) Another member told me he always wanted to try that routine out but thought it was too hard to learn. He asked if I'd mind if he got the props and worked on it himself and said he wouldn't if I'd be offended.

Which do you think was more frustrating to me?

Pj
 
I would like to first go on record to say that I've NEVER needed two posts back to back to respond to a single person. Congratulations Brad. You're a first. I feel like I either need an aspirin now, or a stiff rum and coke, without the coke.

1) While you (and Louis) may think a novel presentation will set you apart from the crowd - the real world does not work that way.
I think most of the working magic force would disagree. I can't recall how many cards across, ambitious cards, strait jackets, box illusions, or "botched" comedy magic acts I've seen take the stage at the Magic Castle, and that's suppose to be one of the highest places to perform night club wise.

Had a story related from a major cruise ship booker once. He gets tapes from magicians all the time. Pops them in and the moment he sees a straight jacket escape, bowling ball production or one other trick (can't recall which one he singled out specifically) he pops it out and throws it in the trash.
So that's one douche booker, for one cruise line. You get them. Just like you get diva magicians who are convinced that their crap doesn't stink. Getting booked in magic is a marketing and sales game. And sales Brad is about numbers. My only reply to this booker is "next".

It doesn't matter if you have the best 'routine' in the world - to the audience its the same thing.
What audience are we talking about here? Magicians? Of course it is. Magicians are the most pretentious jerks out there. I don't perform for magicians, hell I barely like magicians on the whole as is. I perform for laymen, and most laymen are very happy to be entertained. Regardless if it's my strait jacket escape or Goldenhersh's. Also, most laymen aren't educated enough to make the distinction between Copperfield's transposition and Angel's anyways.

And as most of the routines are little more than bits and pieces culled from other peoples routines who culled them from other peoples routines - it establishes my point. The reason most magi do tricks like the jacket is because they say someone else do it first. They THINK they are changing it enough to be different, but ultimately it is all rooted in the same source and it shows.

It still becomes the individuals challenge then to find their voice, and make it loud enough to be heard. You're not going to do that through practice alone. Sometimes it does take doing live shows for live people to see what works for you and what you need to evolve. No one comes out of the box perfect. It's a growing process.

I don't think anyone should not perform a strait jacket JUST because someone else did it first. That's assinine. Buy your jacket, perform it, and grow with it as you find a way to alter, change, or create your own presentation and character.

If I perform a strait jacket escape as is. An escape, am I original? No. I'm not. But I'm not pulling ducks out of the jacket, That belongs to Andrew Goldenhersh, Nor am I escaping it while balancing on a surf board balanced on top of a cylinder drum. That belongs to Farrell Dillan. As I've performed it, I've evolved it into the video you see in the misc section where I do a trust fall with the spectator with them blind folded. Which I am very glad to say I've never seen done by anyone else. Now I'm in position to make a claim (after doing some research to validate) that this is MY personal handling of the classic escape.

If some one see's me do a strait jacket and adds one to their show. Great. More power to them. I don't care. But if they start doing trust falls, then I of course would be pissed. If they started to produce ducks, then Andrew would be upset, and if they started to escape balanced on a surf board then I'm sure Farrell would have something to say to them. I am not wrong for my opinion as you were quick to make note in a previous post. It is after all just an opinion.

You might want to argue that he is missing the point - but he's the guy whose buying. He is the point (or, at least, one of them)..
Nope, I might argue that your missing it. But since you seem to at the least understand where I'm coming from that would just make you obstinate. The conversation from here I fear is just going to go into a nasty loop back onto itself. However, for the sake of intellectual debate I'll wade on.

2) You write: who ever is fortunate enough to find my source, is at just as much advantage as I was when I found it. "

You are getting it wrong. He did not find your source. He found YOU. Then he dug around because he wanted to copy you. The source is irrelevant.
Not really. He still found my source now didn't he? So I served as a source of inspiration? Props. Again, I feel like a broken records, If I change the presentation or other wise make the effect unique to my character, or person, and provided that my act is indeed unique, AND he's not coping ME then what right do I have to care? I don't. I'm protective of the effects that I create, the style that I perform, and the uniqueness of my presentations. I can care less how many people perform the Human Blockhead, save for if we're on the same bill. If you and me are both doing the Human Blockhead AND we're both working the same stage on the same night, then obviously one of us must yield. But that's just a bridge that must be crossed as it comes up.

The impetus is not the idea, not the source, the impetus was YOU. Hence my belief that he should ask you before going off to copy you.
To paraphrase you. "I understand your belief, and you're wrong."

If he found the source on his own having never seen you, I would agree. But that's not what I'm talking about.
Brad if everyone on this world shared your same narrow minded concept for magic presentation then we'd all live in a little box, only coming out once in a while to perform ONLY at our own shows, and never do any research that wouldn't require self study. It doesn't work like that. Inspiration doesn't only work like that. We're social animals, we live in a social world, and thanks to the internet that world's getting very very small. To a lesser point if everyone shared you're point of view, we'd have a HELL of a lot fewer magic performers out there in the world. Professional, amateur, and hobbyist alike. Or is that your point? Are you trying to suggest that you think that our fraternity is over populated?

3) The criss angel incident is close, but again, not exact. (Depending on what you meant). If you perform and someone mentions another magician, that is what it is.
No, it just means that they are trying to relate my show to something they already know to start up conversation and relate me to previous experiences. Criss Angel is just one of the most marketed and known names of a magician to a layman. If some layman came up to me and told me that my act reminded them of Doc Eason, or Derek DelGadio THEN I'd have reason to worry.

You should consider finding another trick ESPECIALLY if it were done on tv.
Yes, probably a good idea, or here's a novel one; change it, own it, make it unique. How many ways is there to do Cards Across, Sawing a Lady in Half, or any other illusion? Thank you.

(To Be Continued...)
 
(Continued From Above...)

I remember when dc did a trick on tv that I had in my act for years. The moment it aired I took it out of my act. Why be seen as the guy copying the real magician on tv? Maybe that doesn't bother you, but I don't want people to think of magic as a commodity that can be bought at a store. (In spite of what the truth mauy be).
The reality of it is that it CAN be. 20 years ago Brad you may have been able to get away with that, but we live in a new world. The information age. People aren't idiots (for the most part). If they want to know something bad enough they just go to Google. ta-dah. No mystery anymore. If we want to survive as an art form, fraternity, and even culture we MUST adapt and change with the times. You removed a good worker from your act JUST because some other guy did it on TV? 1) Either you're running stock material and shame on you for that, or 2) you're being overly pretentious about something that maybe isn't THAT big of a deal. Sure I can understand not performing it for a bit, but if I am correct, and you make it sound so, never performing it again is extreme. Hell-ah extreme to just make a point. No one actually believes we have magical powers. It is a commodity. Your job is to entertain them. From the time you take the stage to the time you leave it your job is to entertain. If you can get them to suspend their belief in reality for those few moments then good for you. You earned a paycheck. But it's absurd to try and control what they think or do after they leave your show. If you did that poor of a job entertaining Joe Schmo, and he REALLY wants to figure out what trick you did, regardless if it be for personal enlightenment or if he wants to add it to his act, you're foolish to think that anything will stop him. The ONLY way to prevent that is to only perform 100% original work that you created, and then NEVER release your work to the public. IF you really don't want magic to be such a commodity then you, and everyone else you know shouldn't be releasing magic to be purchased. The minute you put a product out on that open market, your now contributing to the very problem you protest against.

4) J Roberts (I think) mentions Malone et all doing ambitious. Classics are classics. But what real world success has Daryl had with the act? What about Malone? Have you ever hired Malone to work for real people - do you know what he does in that situation.
I'm willing to bet he doesn't do anything that I can't find in Expert at the Card Table, Tarbell, or anything put out by Vernon.

But more to the point - did bill get on tv with the act?

Nope. He got on tv with sam the bellhop - when he was (effectively) the only person on the planet doing it.

It was unique, it was special, it was bill malone's. (In truth, it was frank everhardt who created it but it was bill who had the vision to see its inherent value. He did it on tv and then everyone started doing it.
And it wasn't even his! By your own logic he should be damned to the 9th pit of hell for doing Sam the Bellhop on TV. He didn't change the patter at all, he didn't even invent the trick. All he did was add a bunch of expert cuts, and false shuffles into it, which jazzed up the presentation. Until that time Sam the Bellhop was only an overlooked throw away party gag.

Again, I ask, HOW IS THAT GOOD FOR BILL, THE COPYIST WHO WILL BE COMPARED TO BILL OR TO MAGIC?
1. Sam is a published effect. 2. You buy it, you can perform it. 3. Should you perform it on TV? No. Not unless you completely reinvent the trick, as you pointed out. It's been done. Then again, how many people is the TV angle going to apply to anyways? Really? 4. If it gets the guy booked, props. 5. Does that mean that Doc Eason is wrong for doing Sam? I happen to like his performance better than Malones. 6. At the end of the day Bill the "copyist" is probably not ever going to work in any capacity that is going to interfere with your work, your area, or your bookings. Bill is probably never going to work main stream and be in front of other magicians all that much. So at the end of the day, it's probably going to work out well for him, and you'll never notice either.

But you have made my point - the fact that one may even feel the urge to change something knowing a magi was in attendance demonstrates the problem
No. I haven't just made your point. I wouldn't change anything regardless of known presence of other magicians in my act. I wouldn't suffer my real audience (the laymen) that injustice. I just know of a magician, whose name escapes me at the minute, who is a rabid advocate of that belief. I don't agree with it, and regard him with as much attention as I do with left or right wing extremist. Which is needless to say, avoidance as if he had the plague.

- too many magicians are on the constant prowl for ideas that don't belong to them. In my mind, it doesn't matter if the idea was original to the performer being watched, or not. The onlooker is not working, not doing research. He is using another performer and his work for his own benefit. SHOULDNT HE AT LEAST ASK?!?
Nope. I guess NFL teams should ask the other teams if they can review video footage of previous performances. Or perhaps actors should ask other actors if they can watch their performances of a certain character when studying for a part? How about comedians who watch other comedians to better understand their own style, timing, and delivery? Oh I'm sure we should then also burn every American Idol contestant at the stake because they're obviously not singing their own original work. While I'm there, why not also condemn every music artist who watches others perform to better refine their own technique? Dude seriously. You're an elitist. We are sorely at an impasse here. I'm not going to convince you to change your ways just as much as you're not going t get me to budge. We both believe we have the moral high ground. As I've already stated 100 times by now. UNLESS THE DUDE IS COPYING YOUR BLOODY WORK LINE FOR FREAKING LINE, WORD FOR WORD, STYLE FOR STYLE, BEAT FOR BEAT AND PATTER FOR PATTER THAT IS UNIQUE TO YOU BECAUSE YOU CREATED IT THEN IT DOESN'T MATTER! (see I can type in all caps to.)

Feel proud that you inspired the next generation to maybe consider trying something they may not have considered before and be done with it. Protect only what intellectual property is your to protect, and leave others alone.


Weber said it well, if you see me work and vary my idea, it is different enough when I no longer recognize my idea in your work. Can we agree on that?
Yes, we can both agree to that. HOWEVER, I go further to say that it doesn't mean just because person A is doing an Ambitious Card Routine, that person B shouldn't. Person B just needs to find his own voice and make sure his routine isn't Person A's.
 
you know there's no RIGHT answer to this. you both have different opinion on the subject and this thread has basically become a stalemate between you two because the fact of the matter is that different people have different opinions and different approaches to magic. Neither may be wrong and neither may be right, So agree to disagree as this is kinda going in circles. Both of you have points and both of you have supporters. Time to call it a draw

I've already tried that. I've even said as much. But apparently Brad feels that is a cop out, so here we stand. Again.

Don't worry much. This thread is quickly coming to a end, I don't think we're going to be able to carry on much more on this subject. It's just a matter of time before the mods step in and lock it. That or one of the two of us (Brad or Myself) agree to just let it drop once and for all. An option that I am still in favor of mind you.
 
PJ: To reply to your story, I can sympathize. That is frustrating. However you indeed own that effect. You've tweaked it, you honed it. You even said so yourself. You're not performing it "stock." It's become a piece that is unique to you, and people should in all rights ask you to perform it.

That's not what Brad and Myself are arguing about. You are looking at the same situation only magnified by 1000 times. My argument is on a much broader scale than that.

I argue that if someone were to copy you in entirety, patter, presentation, props, and all then yes, we indeed have a problem. But if they are inspired by your effect, seek it out, learn it, invest the effort and time into acquiring the props, the knowledge, and the resources, then perform it their own way, fair game.

Do you see where I'm coming from? You didn't create the effect. It's not the effect you own... it's your presentation of it. That's what is sacred. That's where the line could be crossed.
 
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