The REAL Satisfaction of Magic

[wZEnigma]

Hello, ladies and gentlemen.

I am a hated magician.

Bear with me. I am not disrespected, but often "flamed". I have a good reputation, but am blamed. Why is this? Because the magician's standpoint is always ever just that.

I post videos often to receive comments and get better. However, a majority of magicians seem to have a problem with the fact that I'm doing magic. By their standards, I am "poor" or "haven't practiced enough". I understand that practice is essential, and I agree - I practice a lot. However, just because I'm not the supreme caliber of Jason England or the Buck twins, doesn't mean I'm not a good manipulator of sleight of hand.

Let me elaborate. I have performed live several times, and I have mostly gotten good feedback. I also receive this on the occasional trick I'll do for a friend or two. So shouldn't those reactions be enough to establish myself as a quality performer? It is to no avail. I am criticized as bad. I get satisfaction from creating a small miracles in someone else's daily life, and that satisfaction is greater than the need to fine tune everything in a trick so tightly David Blaine couldn't see the secret moves through a microscope.

A second point: The forums suck. On the Dan and Dave forums, a poster said this. They do. They were meant to be a magical community, and fell apart to iPod ads, trollers, and useless threads and members. These problems still plague us. My doing magic with a friend would ooze experience and fun that is easily ten times the amount earned on these forums. I don't care if it's controversial: it's the truth.

But I come here to learn new things, and receive feedback. However, when that is tainted by holier-than-thou "magicians" and prepubescents revealing the latest card trick - as well as crowd pleasers/followers and others - it cannot be taken as it is offered. It's like taking a 100 dollar bill, not noticing it's play money. I want honest feedback from magicians who know what the art is truly about, and aren't full of themselves and put down other magicians for their less than superb technique.

Daniel Garcia I ain't. But I am still a good magician. Why is this? I perform and get positive reactions with card tricks I love to do. Maybe I'm just bad in front of a webcam or alone with a camera. But I know I have real satisfaction from performing magic.

I may just come off as a sour amateur, and for those of you who believe so, good for you. Whoop-de-do. I don't care. I'm making points that everyone can stand to learn from.

One of the main points I wish to make very crystal clear is this: You are a magician. You are not an onlooker. You cannot correctly judge a magical effect for its quality. You look at each phase, dissect every move and every little nuance until it's nothing more than a fragment of wonder. Please bear with me again when I say that the overthinking of an effect is as bad as exposure.

Another main point: The forums have gone so much off base than what they were meant to be. People had to see it coming. The problems that struck Ellusionist are happening here. Pretty soon, we'll need another new fix, jonesing for that elixir that is fresh faces and a new layout. My objectives of coming on here to learn new things and gain experience are now worthless follies that I cannot dare to hope to achieve without private professional guidance.

So let me say that the forums are quite the double-edged sword.

I have fun doing magic. My tricks work, even if I have a "noticeable flash" to a magician. Whatever. Good job, Magician X. You figured something out! What a shocker - what did you say you did again?

I'll continue to visit the forums, because the Saturday Night Contests can be fun, and some threads on here have good points - others simply amuse me. And every once in a while, I'll get a good answer to a question I have about a product or whatnot. But I will not post videos on this forum again.

Peace out.

Ian

 

[nIvan]

Ian,

May I say that I, as an amateur magician, understand where your frustration stems. While I can perform tricks well for myself, friends, family, strangers even, I cannot seem to get everything perfectly down pat. However, the more I practice, the less I flash and the more sophisticated I become in card magic.

Those who "flame" or "bash" you are simply trying to improve your skill and do what they think would be best for them if they were in your shoes.

Don't take criticism to harshly, although simple it is. Instead, relish in it and use it to your advantage to eliminate flashes, perfect performances, and become a better magician overall.

Ivan.

 

[CaseyRudd]

Wow dude, just wow.

I see where you are coming from, but just because I and others said you flashed and it was sloppily performed, you complained more? It is wrong to claim other magicians trying to seek everything out. I watch as an onlooker or a spectator, forgetting everything there is to know about magic and just simply watch it happen. Now when I do this, i do notice some fishy things if I were actually watching someone do it. In this case, I saw an extra card in the load. And when you dropped them on top. So if I were actually watching as a real spec, I would say this

"I saw an extra card..."

See my point? They are basically telling you that you flashed. Same thing.

Back when I was still starting out, i did some of these flashes when doing a sandwich. Did that tell me to complain and whine here on a forum? NO. It made me want to get better at it and practice more and more and more, which is what you should have done rather than posting this complaint.

I'm sorry if this comes across as rude, but I don't care, you have to know when crossing a line on a public forum like this. You don't post complaints about other magician's being too harsh. That will get you nowhere. It just makes people flame you even more. Which is why I suggest for real feedback seek out a mentor. Josh Brand is my mentor, and I have highly improved everything I do because of him. I dont ask for opinions on a forum, because some people here are amateurs. Even if they aren't there still is a possibility because i have no idea of what they look like or how they perform.

This is just my case, but you took this way too far. Please don't complain like this ever again for the love of God.

Casey

 

[wZEnigma]

@nIvan: I do, and I will. On the subject of practicing.

@CRProductions: Okay.

I see where you are coming from, but just because I and others said you flashed and it was sloppily performed, you complained more? It is wrong to claim other magicians trying to seek everything out. I watch as an onlooker or a spectator, forgetting everything there is to know about magic and just simply watch it happen. Now when I do this, i do notice some fishy things if I were actually watching someone do it. In this case, I saw an extra card in the load. And when you dropped them on top. So if I were actually watching as a real spec, I would say this

"I saw an extra card..."

See my point? They are basically telling you that you flashed. Same thing.

The last point is fair enough. However, live, I have not had someone tell me I've flashed, or "saw an extra card". And, I'm not complaining, which I'll explain later. Also, I stated in my OP that the magician cannot purely judge magic.

Back when I was still starting out, i did some of these flashes when doing a sandwich. Did that tell me to complain and whine here on a forum? NO. It made me want to get better at it and practice more and more and more, which is what you should have done rather than posting this complaint.

Okay. I am not complaining. I am stating my opinion on a rash of holier-than-thou magicians, yourself being one of them. Just because you post "flawless" videos that you make yourself think that everyone thinks is the sh!t, doesn't make you a great magician. I've seen your stuff, man. It's good, and amazing from a spectator's POV, I'm sure. Yeah, there are things you could improve, but the effect is already there. Let the magic be, man. The Beatles said that.

I'm sorry if this comes across as rude, but I don't care, you have to know when crossing a line on a public forum like this. You don't post complaints about other magician's being too harsh. That will get you nowhere. It just makes people flame you even more. Which is why I suggest for real feedback seek out a mentor. Josh Brand is my mentor, and I have highly improved everything I do because of him. I dont ask for opinions on a forum, because some people here are amateurs. Even if they aren't there still is a possibility because i have no idea of what they look like or how they perform.

Ooh, a good magician is your mentor! I'm so jealous! That's cool and all, and I'm glad you've improved. But what I need, and what everyone needs, is a guiding hand - not a freaking slap in the face saying it was terrible.


This is just my case, but you took this way too far. Please don't complain like this ever again for the love of God.

If this is a complaint, then Criss Angel is a good magician.

Ian

 

[CaseyRudd]

Then I guess Criss Angel IS a good magician...

 

[wZEnigma]

^Fail.^

I'm stating my opinion. This is a forum, it's America, I can do that. I'm trying to say, "Yes, I need help, but not harsh criticism, a guiding hand."

Ian

 

[CaseyRudd]

^Fail.^

Ian

Fail huh?

Criss actually IS good when you look at it.

He amazes people. Simple as that. Isn't that what WE do?

Just because he uses camera tricks for SOME things, it look's pretty damn cool though, and gives you surprise.

Most stuff though isnt camera trickery, they are actual effects. Luke Dancy works with Criss. Would Luke Dancy offer him tricks using camera tricks? No. He's a professional magician, and most effects I've seen Criss do are actually for sale.

But you can think whatever you want, I can't change your opinion. If you are sick and tired of being flamed and such, why not improve on it when filming? I get nervous in front of a camera too, it's just ice cold frightening and I always get pissed off because I can never get it right for a lense...

With real people I do perfectly fine. It's just me and them, and I interact and ect....

So good luck to you on whatever you decide to do. Hope it turns out the best for ya.

MINDFREAK!!!! lol

Casey

 

[nIvan]

Ooh, a good magician is your mentor! I'm so jealous! That's cool and all, and I'm glad you've improved. But what I need, and what everyone needs, is a guiding hand - not a freaking slap in the face saying it was terrible.

That's just it. When portrayed through text and behind the false anonymity of the internet, a guiding hand may just be a slap on the face that propels you further towards your goal. Sure, no-one may point out your flashes in person, this doesn't mean that they won't in the future. The point of posting something online is to get critiques about the moves, what you're doing wrong, and how you can improve. Admittedly, many of these critiques do come along as harsh and flames with a pinch of bash, a teaspoon of rage, and a gallon of troll. If you can't accept the fact that the kind of critique you recieve on the internet is going to be just that, it isn't worth posting your videos.

Personally, I have seen your videos and I thought you did a great job with a few minor mistakes. These minor atrocities are exposed fully when you ask for reviews, thoughts, opinions. Not all of them are going to be positive.

I'm stating my opinion. This is a forum, it's America, I can do that. I'm trying to say, "Yes, I need help, but not harsh criticism, a guiding hand."

The internet isn't America. While what you may say flies where you live, it may not to others. This forum is fairly Laissez-faire(spelling?) on posts, which is why you can post this and why we can respond as we do.

 

[penguincdude]

Chill. You're making too big of a deal of this than you should. I don't wanna choose sides but honestly, they were just trying to offer advice. Why do you care so much anyway? Honestly, this is just a little magic forum you don't need to take it so seriously. If you don't care what they have to say, then ignore it. Like you said, you already know you're a good magician so why should you care. Just ignore it and move on with your day. There's no need for threads like this.

 

[Slicke]

Well i see your point. School is the main place i perform most of my card magic ... But there are also a couple of people i know that knows enough about card magic to criticize and sometime tries to bust me when they can. So one time i was performing a basic transpo. using 2DL, and this friend just happen to be there watching, looking closely. I completed the effect successfully, and this "friend" says "Oh i saw everything, you are too slow (which really pissed me off), you made it look really obvious" .. I did not bother responding to him, because I know that i was at my best, which is, everything went smoothly, it was clean and the spec. liked it.

So when people criticizes me like that, i just let it slide because i know they are wrong.

But there is also that time, when i was performing some mentalism to a friend. I asked him to write a word, on a piece of paper clipped to a pad. I was mainly practicing on him because he knows how the trick works. I revealed the word he wrote down after some acting, and he said, "don't ever do that, it looks Stupid, do you know how to use it in a card trick ??? " ....

So to this guy, i thought about what he said and thought to myself ... "maybe he is right, i should try using it in a card trick and see which one gives me a better reaction"

So my point is, people are gonna criticize your magic most of the time and your job is to find out whether what they said is useful or if YOU don't find it useful, let it slide ... Also don't think that your magic is always at its best, so don't be a ***** and not accept useful advice from other people.

 

[scarecrow1]

Ian,

And I quote "But what I need, and what everyone needs, is a guiding hand - not a freaking slap in the face saying it was terrible."

I and nobody else in that thread EVER said it was terrible. We ALL gave you a "guiding hand". I was trying to help you out. I gave you some advice that would help your magic, and be the best for you.

Do you want us to lie to you!? I can, but I won't! I'm not going to stand by and let some magician trying to advance in the art go asking for help, and not try to help him. I WILL try to help him. That is what we ALL did in that thread. But no...you had to go cry and make a thread looking for sympathy.

"holier-than-thou" We aren't being "holier-than-thou". We are TRYING TO HELP YOU!!!!!

So stop complaining and take the constructive criticism. We are only trying to help you out. If you don't want to make videos and post them here, fine. Your loss. I don't care.

"prepubescents" What? That's how your acting.

BTW, you definition of "holier-than-thou" makes no sense. If I was holier-than-thou, I wouldn't have tried to help you.

EDIT: I thought you "left" a long time ago Ian? Care to explain?

Cheers


I doubt you'll even reply to this post...

 

[Chicken]

Why would you post something if you were only looking for compliments.


That seems terribly vain to me- y'know what they say- "Give each negative comment a moment of thought, and ignore all the positive ones."

 

[CaseyRudd]

If i was a forum moderator, I would close this thread

*cough* JON RAIKER HELP US! *cough*

this is going no where. and i see it as a thread that will end up to some serious anger and argument.

 

[TheatreHead]

What do you want us to do?

Tell you your trick was amazing even though you flashed twice and didn't even make an effort at adding patter?

Ok.

"Hey, wZEnigma, that sandwich routine you posted up was amazing. You're doing absolutely nothing wrong, and you should continue to perform it exactly like that."

No. That wouldn't be helping you. That would be crippling you.

Let me elaborate. I have performed live several times, and I have mostly gotten good feedback. I also receive this on the occasional trick I'll do for a friend or two. So shouldn't those reactions be enough to establish myself as a quality performer? It is to no avail. I am criticized as bad. I get satisfaction from creating a small miracles in someone else's daily life, and that satisfaction is greater than the need to fine tune everything in a trick so tightly David Blaine couldn't see the secret moves through a microscope.

If this is a complaint, then Criss Angel is a good magician.

Hypocrisy much?
Criss Angel gets generally good feedback. So shouldn't those reactions be enough to establish him as a quality performer?

Grow up.

 

[scarecrow1]

If i was a forum moderator, I would close this thread

*cough* JON RAIKER HELP US! *cough*

this is going no where. and i see it as a thread that will end up to some serious anger and argument.

That's true.

Ian, sorry if I sounded rude, (I was ticked when I read this thread....still am) but I just want to help you. Seriously. So just take the constructive criticism. Unless of course you don't want to be a good magician and take people's help....your choice. The forums are here to help each other advance. Take advantage of that.

PS: Also don't point fingers saying "holier-than-thou" and things like that. It's stupid when it has no basis on facts.


Cheers

 

[magicman]

That's just it. When portrayed through text and behind the false anonymity of the internet, a guiding hand may just be a slap on the face that propels you further towards your goal. Sure, no-one may point out your flashes in person, this doesn't mean that they won't in the future. The point of posting something online is to get critiques about the moves, what you're doing wrong, and how you can improve. Admittedly, many of these critiques do come along as harsh and flames with a pinch of bash, a teaspoon of rage, and a gallon of troll. If you can't accept the fact that the kind of critique you recieve on the internet is going to be just that, it isn't worth posting your videos.

Personally, I have seen your videos and I thought you did a great job with a few minor mistakes. These minor atrocities are exposed fully when you ask for reviews, thoughts, opinions. Not all of them are going to be positive.



The internet isn't America. While what you may say flies where you live, it may not to others. This forum is fairly Laissez-faire(spelling?) on posts, which is why you can post this and why we can respond as we do.

nIvan: You have your ways with words brother, such diplomacy. I couldn't agree with you more.

What's funny is that even posting criticism takes effort, and dare I say practice. There's a level of emotional intelligence needed, in consideration for the recipient of the advice given to. For those receiving the advise...yeah, what nIvan said up here, lol.

 

[descartes]

Hello, ladies and gentlemen.

I am a hated magician.

Bear with me. I am not disrespected, but often "flamed". I have a good reputation, but am blamed. Why is this? Because the magician's standpoint is always ever just that.

OK. If you posted a video on a magician's forum asking for honest feedback, you have to be prepared for people to dissect it at a level of detail that no laymen would do.

I think you are taking negative criticism personally.

I post videos often to receive comments and get better. However, a majority of magicians seem to have a problem with the fact that I'm doing magic. By their standards, I am "poor" or "haven't practiced enough". I understand that practice is essential, and I agree - I practice a lot. However, just because I'm not the supreme caliber of Jason England or the Buck twins, doesn't mean I'm not a good manipulator of sleight of hand.

Let me elaborate. I have performed live several times, and I have mostly gotten good feedback. I also receive this on the occasional trick I'll do for a friend or two. So shouldn't those reactions be enough to establish myself as a quality performer? It is to no avail. I am criticized as bad. I get satisfaction from creating a small miracles in someone else's daily life, and that satisfaction is greater than the need to fine tune everything in a trick so tightly David Blaine couldn't see the secret moves through a microscope.

OK, you are probably somewhat inexperienced in magic. I am in a similar situation and I'll give you my viewpoint. There are many moves which will fly right by laymen in a performance setting in spite of tells which will be obvious to experienced magicians. It takes a lot of hard work to fool experienced magicians with just sleight of hand.

When you ask for feedback from magicians, they will analyze your technique closely and compare it with great magicians they have seen. I'm guessing that your average laymen have never seen someone of the caliber of say Jason England or John Carney. It should not surprise you that they react better. Just because something fools laymen doesn't mean it cannot be improved.

But I come here to learn new things, and receive feedback. However, when that is tainted by holier-than-thou "magicians" and prepubescents revealing the latest card trick - as well as crowd pleasers/followers and others - it cannot be taken as it is offered. It's like taking a 100 dollar bill, not noticing it's play money. I want honest feedback from magicians who know what the art is truly about, and aren't full of themselves and put down other magicians for their less than superb technique.

I haven't seen any prepubescents exposing magic on these forums. Are you talking about youtube? If you are, I can only suggest you ignore them.

Daniel Garcia I ain't. But I am still a good magician. Why is this? I perform and get positive reactions with card tricks I love to do. Maybe I'm just bad in front of a webcam or alone with a camera. But I know I have real satisfaction from performing magic.

Once again, good laymen reactions don't necessarily mean your tricks or your technique are perfect. Also, performing magic for a webcam is different (maybe harder in some respects) from performing it live, but you could choose friendly angles to somewhat mitigate your problems (just a thought).

One of the main points I wish to make very crystal clear is this: You are a magician. You are not an onlooker. You cannot correctly judge a magical effect for its quality. You look at each phase, dissect every move and every little nuance until it's nothing more than a fragment of wonder. Please bear with me again when I say that the overthinking of an effect is as bad as exposure.

C'mon. Overthinking is as bad as exposure? Really?

Another main point: The forums have gone so much off base than what they were meant to be. People had to see it coming. The problems that struck Ellusionist are happening here. Pretty soon, we'll need another new fix, jonesing for that elixir that is fresh faces and a new layout. My objectives of coming on here to learn new things and gain experience are now worthless follies that I cannot dare to hope to achieve without private professional guidance.

Now you're being melodramatic. Worthless follies?

I have fun doing magic. My tricks work, even if I have a "noticeable flash" to a magician. Whatever. Good job, Magician X. You figured something out! What a shocker - what did you say you did again?

There is always room for improvement, especially in technique. You should strive for excellence in magic, even if laymen bow down to your greatness.

I'll continue to visit the forums, because the Saturday Night Contests can be fun, and some threads on here have good points - others simply amuse me. And every once in a while, I'll get a good answer to a question I have about a product or whatnot. But I will not post videos on this forum again.

Peace out.

Ian

Well, at the very least, try to find either a mentor or a set of trusted magic buddies who will give you honest criticism without ticking you off.

 

[Morgan B]

It’s been awhile before something has sparked an interest, and your rant caught my eye...as I don't want guys to think you really are educating them on something of value. What you are teaching people is that when you post, honest feedback is not appreciated, and I don't want this to be a habit anymore than it has to be.

Here is the thing wZEnigma:

You seem to be upset that people are judging so harshly. Actually, you should be your own worst judge and realize the material you are showing through videos, if it is not polished, is going to get harsh feedback – because unlike a real performance, you should have filmed it over and over until it looked perfect. If you posted it and you thought it WAS perfect, well, you obviously missed the details....if you didn't care, and wanted feedback on your mistakes...then what is the issue?

Now, if you are looking for feedback – use a mirror. It isn’t anyone’s job or duty to treat you with kind gentle words, as I don’t think anyone on this site volunteered to be your teacher or mentor...even if they did, they may use the same approach. I heard that Vernon wasn’t so “kind” with his feedback. Do you want the truth, or do you want sugar coated pills to help you swallow the truth? Don't expect people to teach you by being supportive, and kind...oh yeah, and for free.

As for your impact with magic with your friends – you need to read the essay, “The Standards of Deception” by Jami Ian Swiss – in this, he talks about how your friends accept some of the “tells” or poor quality magic moments because they assume that this is how things are done. When you face an unfamiliar audience, the truth is often spoken more as they aren’t trying to salvage a friendship.

It really sounds like you struggle with the feedback given – it shouldn’t matter if someone is in magic for 1 year or 10 years, there opinion is what you subject yourself to when you post videos. I would recommend, again, being a harder judge of yourself. You are putting your stuff out there for judgement, and then become upset when it is critiqued? You say you post material for comments to get better? Truthfully, that is NOT how you should be trying to improve, and if you are going to try to make the world your teacher, then expect to get “flamed” a bit from people qualified or not qualified...this is performance baby! COWBOY UP!

Remove your ego, as it seems to be bruised, and continue to grow and get better. Your post is so defensive...if you are tired of getting beaten on, I think it is smart that you stop posting videos for awhile, and now try to improve on your own merit...you know, the way that the rest of us do it. I am starting to wonder if young magicians are smart enough to watch their own videos to see issues. It isn’t the communities job to make you better, this falls on your shoulders. How can you expect MORE from the people that view your videos, when you yourself put in such little effort in creating the magical experience for them? So, what you are saying is that you want to put out sloppy magic that you haven’t perfected yet for feedback...but despite not having a critical eye that is talented enough to catch your own blunders, that you want others to ignore them and give you better and kinder comments?

Go do magic for your friends...perhaps they make you feel better about yourself. However, this community has different expectations than your friends do. We expect more. The community wants you to be better for magic, not just for you. They want you to do magic well so people don't hate magic - because the percentage that does it well is small, and are FAR outnumbered by the one's that are sloppy.

You state that over thinking and effect is as bad as exposure...I would say SO is UNDER thinking an effect. The only thing you are teaching the community is that you are struggling with feedback, and felt the need to defend your bruised ego with – MY FRIENDS SAY I AM GOOD and THIS FORUM SUCKS ANYWAYS! Classy.

You may be right, some magicians will figure out your magic...but the question you should be asking is why. Is it because you flashed, or because the method is known to them...either way, my experience has been that when something is done well, it gets a nod, when it is done poorly...a magician points it out. I would HOPE that the magician would point it out, because audiences are usually too polite to says anything to your face. They are satisfied with NOT CARING, because they are seeing bad magic...or talking about it when you leave.

You have some real learning to do...but, I am not sure that your bruised ego will allow you to really see your magic for what it is, so you can get past the issues and be better. Good luck with your own barriers.

Cheers

 

[Hans]

I understand. It's really frustrating for u.

But people may just want to help, don't be too serious about those harsh criticism . Stay positive, this forum helps magicians from every corners of the world to gather and share, i learnt much in this forum and i believe you learnt much as well.

You are a great magician as long as you create miracles in people's lives!

 

[scarecrow1]

don't be too serious about those harsh criticism .

Bad advice. You should BE serious if everyone comes to the same conclusion about your magic. If everyone but you thinks you need to work on something, I'm pretty sure your wrong.


Cheers