Old Magicians vs Young Magicians

[Wallmott]

Why is that there lots of older magicians have problems with younger magicians? I think many of the younger magicians have more respect for the older magicians then the other way around.

If you go over to the magic cafe where a lot of older magicians gather you can see a lot of talking down to younger magicians with less knowledge being talked down to and dumbed down and as soon as they get the chance they will make a T11, Ellusionist or Dan and dave joke telling them to go back to T11 where all the "cool" stuff happends.

There seems to be a lot of dissrespect to the younger generation just because we might be different. What do you think about that?

 

[Randomwrath]

I think a lot of younger magicians find it quite hard to grasp some of the ideas that older magicians offer - not that they don't understand them but in my opinion, a lot of the ideas in magic have to sort of click by themselves. I can understand why this would be very annoying for older magicians, and it would be very easy to talk down to the younger magicians. I suppose in some ways it means that the younger performers that are serious will work harder to gain the respect of their peers, and the ones that aren't serious will back off and lose interest. I don't really think it's a particularly big issue though - I can't see it being a good thing or a bad thing really.

 

[Luis Vega]

Why is that there lots of older magicians have problems with younger magicians? I think many of the younger magicians have more respect for the older magicians then the other way around.

If you go over to the magic cafe where a lot of older magicians gather you can see a lot of talking down to younger magicians with less knowledge being talked down to and dumbed down and as soon as they get the chance they will make a T11, Ellusionist or Dan and dave joke telling them to go back to T11 where all the "cool" stuff happends.

There seems to be a lot of dissrespect to the younger generation just because we might be different. What do you think about that?

I don`t think every "old magician" thinks the same way about the younger generation...

well...I met an old magician and I totally hated him...since he critiziced everything I was doing and why I was doing those tricks and that I should use stupid patter (the kind of patter where basically you are calling your spectators stupid) and a lot of things...but then I met other old magician and he praise my performance and he told me he felt the future of magic was assured with people like me....

as you can see there are both sides of the coin...I wouldn`t generalize so fast...

 

[worldwideme]

as you can see there are both sides of the coin...I wouldn`t generalize so fast...

dont generalize ever, as soon as you do somebody will prove you wrong

 

[William Draven]

You realize that the Magic Cafe is a breeding ground for hobby elitists right? That place has more arm chair magicians, has beens, and wanna be's than any other site out there.

You kids on this site do more in your lunch room to further the art of magic in one period than what some of those cat's have done in thirty years. Don't be disparaged. Go. Out. Perform.

 

[jprace]

Some older magicians think there is some kind of relationship between age and creativity. However, I believe otherwise. If so, a director's last film would be his best, and a painters last painting would be his masterpiece. And that's rarely true.

 

[Wallmott]

No ofcourse every "older" magician is not like that, there are som very nice people in the magic community that will help you out with almost anything.

I actually think that this can be quit a problem sometimes in some situations and i think that is that most magicians ends up almost the same.

You see a lot of young magicians having their own personality and oroginal style etc and then you come across some older magicians and they will give you a lot of critique for not doing it their way or the old way and the younger magicians thinks that hes doing it wrong and follows their advice and in the end they end up like the old magicians and it goes all over again.

If you look at it magic has been almost the same since the days of Vernon because everyone is following the same advice, it can get a bit borring for the audience.

Imagine in music or movies if someone said that there is a right way to do it and if you dont follow their style your doing it wrong. It would be like in 90% of the magic, all over again.

And how boring would it be if it only were 1 kind of music or movies?

 

[descartes]

Why is that there lots of older magicians have problems with younger magicians? I think many of the younger magicians have more respect for the older magicians then the other way around.

If you go over to the magic cafe where a lot of older magicians gather you can see a lot of talking down to younger magicians with less knowledge being talked down to and dumbed down and as soon as they get the chance they will make a T11, Ellusionist or Dan and dave joke telling them to go back to T11 where all the "cool" stuff happends.

There seems to be a lot of dissrespect to the younger generation just because we might be different. What do you think about that?

There are always differences of opinion between different generations. It's not like an all out war though.

The next time you see criticism from an older guy, decide for yourself whether his arguments have merit or whether he is simply being a grouch. I suspect that very often, the older guys will have valid points.

Of course, the magic cafe may be an exception, as it has more than its fair share of egotistical people, but don't let that blind you to the genuine advice some of the experienced pros have.

Try and find out the people who are qualified to offer critiques and listen to them, even if they offer tough love.

 

[Wallmott]

I am actually mostly talking about the magic cafe, because i have never seen so much negativity against younger magicians as you can see over there.

Its sad that they will do anything to put the younger generation down, i mean why?

 

[Rev]

You are right to some extent, but it's not right to think that younger people always have respect for the older guys and the older guys always disrespect the younger guys.

How many times do we here young, trendy magicians slagging off 'old fashioned' magic and magicians, acting like they are somehow superior, cos they are 'modern' 'underground' or 'making magic into art'? Quite a bit. Our very own Daniel Madison did it quite frequently.

So I think there is both respect and disrespect in both directions.

Rev

 

[AndrewJ]

You realize that the Magic Cafe is a breeding ground for hobby elitists right? That place has more arm chair magicians, has beens, and wanna be's than any other site out there.

You kids on this site do more in your lunch room to further the art of magic in one period than what some of those cat's have done in thirty years. Don't be disparaged. Go. Out. Perform.

I have a lot of interests, and you just described 99% of the forums for all of them.

I agree. Ignore all the forums. Do your thing.

 

[Justin.Morris]

I have a lot of interests, and you just described 99% of the forums for all of them.

I agree. Ignore all the forums. Do your thing.

I understand that people don't want to receive criticism in any shape or form, but despite all the junk posts, there are many great posters at the cafe, who offer tons of free and great advice. But you need to sort through it. Read more than you post.

It is not about using the internet as a tool OR going out to perform, it is a BOTH/AND situation. The internet is a great tool, but use it wisely and don't believe everything you read. However, there is some that you can learn a lot faster and easier by listening to guys who have been down that road before you, rather than trying to reinvent the wheel, and learn the hard way.
You need to find the guys who's posts are legit and don't listen to the guys who are just blowing smoke (after time, you can tell ).

It is younger mentality to not listen to the advice of those who have gone before you. Just like a parent telling their kids "don't smoke, drink or do drugs!" and kids think they know better and are invincible, then spend the next decades of their life battling their cigarette/drug addiction, or trying to deal with the consequences of drinking too much.
It is a young mentality.
But if you are young in age, it doesn't meant you need to be young in maturity.

Being mature, doesn't mean you get to make your own choices; it means being able to make wise choices.

If you want to make a difference in your art, learn from those who have gone before you and start from there. Otherwise you will come up with the NEW, INCREDIBLE TRICK! "I call it 'TRINITY'!" "It starts with dealing 3 rows of seven cards....."

We see this all the time. But guys who learn from those who have tread the ground before them, come up with new and original material, or advancements to old material.

Be one of these people in every area of your life.

 

[The Wordsmith]

dont generalize ever, as soon as you do somebody will prove you wrong

Actually there are times when it is good to generalise...

...a lot of the ideas in magic have to sort of click by themselves...

I completely agree. When I first got into magic I was told after a couple of months that presentation is everything. Get a few tricks under your belt then focus on the presentation. I listened to the advice, payed close attention, went away and... ignored it. I ignored it because I did not understand what was meant by it. It was not enough to be told it, I had to see and experience the difference between a good trick badly presented and a bad trick fantastically presented. It wasn't long after the first year when the message really and truly sunk in and I understood.

Now see that from the point of view of the people who first told me and saw it was several months before things began to change because I just didn't get it.

Also I don't see why it has to be young vs. old - there is implication there of unneeded conflict.

 

[Justin.Morris]

...
Also I don't see why it has to be young vs. old - there is implication there of unneeded conflict.

The answer is in your own post, as well as my post above.

There is a natural conflict that occurs between young and old. Not it's not directly related to age, but there is a strong correlation with maturity of thought/action.

There may also be a huge affect from the Generation Y youth. There is a generational resistance to being told how to do things, that is particularly strong with that generation. Something to study more I'm sure.

 

[worldwideme]

Actually there are times when it is good to generalise...

of course there is a time for everything, and everything has its season.

but generalizing people and developing stereotypes comes rarely.

 

[~Ryan Fox~]

I have a lot of interests, and you just described 99% of the forums for all of them.

I agree. Ignore all the forums. Do your thing.

Very well said,

The more time spent on the forums the less time you could be getting real life experience. Knowledge from others does wonders, but until you experience how random each situation in performing close up can be, you live to learn.

~Ryan~

 

[Justin.Morris]

Very well said,

The more time spent on the forums the less time you could be getting real life experience. Knowledge from others does wonders, but until you experience how random each situation in performing close up can be, you live to learn.

~Ryan~

But to say this is like saying, there are some bad books out there, so forget about learning from books - just go do it and learn that way.

This is not a wise way to live. It is a both/and thing, not an either/or.

 

[Cedric Taylor]

Why is that there lots of older magicians have problems with younger magicians? I think many of the younger magicians have more respect for the older magicians then the other way around.

If you go over to the magic cafe where a lot of older magicians gather you can see a lot of talking down to younger magicians with less knowledge being talked down to and dumbed down and as soon as they get the chance they will make a T11, Ellusionist or Dan and dave joke telling them to go back to T11 where all the "cool" stuff happends.

There seems to be a lot of dissrespect to the younger generation just because we might be different. What do you think about that?

I don't see the issue being old versus young. I think its established vs non-established. A lot of the more established shun the less established magicians. Of course that in itself can lead to age, but thats not always the case. Some of the more established are younger and tend to think less of the less established, no matter what the age . I think guys such as Chris Kenner, Johnny Thompson, Banachek,Lee Asher, and Brad Christian, to name a few are an exception. They are people who look at the work of the individual and not the age per say.



I wouldn't say its an age issue its a perception issue. I think the younger magicians tend to rub older magicians the wrong way as well with their brash and cocky attitude. Sure you may have a few new effects, but still, you like the other person is a magician trying to further the art. I think older magicians has been disrespected so much by younger ones till the point they feel threatened.

I hate to sound like a good Samaritan but i think all magicians should get along. No matter how much you bring to the table, we are here for the same purpose. Thats just me.

 

[~Ryan Fox~]

But to say this is like saying, there are some bad books out there, so forget about learning from books - just go do it and learn that way.

This is not a wise way to live. It is a both/and thing, not an either/or.

Im not saying you would have to avoid the forums completely. Sometimes they could be educational and useful when asking questions or looking for the next product to buy. What I am saying is the forum, isnt a place where you should focus all you attention on. There as some members on other sites hitting the 20 to 30 thousand postmark. I mean if thats what they want to do then that shouldnt bother anybody else.

With that said I dont think you should avoid the forums completely, however it should be very limited. I believe the best way to learn is to learn through trial and error. Your not going to get very far with just reading this information. Yes it will give you some foundation but come to your first time performing th nerves will build and completely distract your thinking. You dont get nerves when just reading a post.

There is some things books and people will teach you, but for everything else you will have to learn in the heat of the moment. Im pretty sure magicians like Lance Burton and David Copperfield spent time on a forum all day asking for advice. They got more proctive as in designing ther own illusions and meeting up with local magicians. I do believe the best way to learn is trial and error and becoming an indiviual and unique performer and not being molded into a clone by "how we are suppose tp perform".

Plus alot of forums have alot of smart *** remarks for new people who ask a silly question. Not all but alot. Then there is always an argument and then the david blaine/criss angel debate. Personally thats not the atmosphere I want to be around. I usually like to jut keep updated with new artist and new material released.

Not bashing on the forum but I could not imagine just using this as a primary source. More like a secondary for questions or products.

Just my opinion.

 

[AndrewJ]

Sorry. I didn't mean to trash the Café. I've actually lurked there to get a lot of great information. I don't have any knowledge or opinion about the quality of magicians over there.

That was a generalization on forums in general. My first trip to modem-based social interaction happened around 1986. That's not a typo. Being one of the "fixtures" of any forum usually means the person posts there a lot -- nothing more or less.

My favorite from days past was a guy in a fiction-based forum who posted all kinds of philosophical rants about "the truth" while using a picture of John Bon Jovi as his avatar. This was among his lesser transgressions and was maybe three years ago.

Anyway. Magic is a hobby, which is probably why I can even enjoy coming to forums. The interests I have in any professional capacity don't allow me to tolerate the less savory aspects of forums.