Cardistry is diseased.

[UnholyGodn]

One of the main reasons I got into Flourishing in the first place and moved away from magic is because the online magic community was basically a bunch of arrogant ignorant morons who spent more time worrying about YouTube exposure than what they performed and because of their almighty "NO EXPOSURE" basically halted any discussion of ideas or concepts among peers. What is the point of the internet bridging the gap between people if you make a 'exclusive' club, that isn't even that exclusive, then charge people admission. In the good old days you could go to a magic club and people would share their experiance for free, or lend you their books and give you advice, now the internet has made magic into a "I'll help you, but I'll make it a DVD first and sell you it".

Why am I talking about magic when this is about Cardistry? Because the Cardistry community has become exactly the same. The problem is, there is no reason for it to be! There are no secrets and trickery in Cardistry, it's supposed to be a fun hobby that people can have fun doing, that's what hobbies are for. These forums are full of bad analogies comparing magic to rocket science, but heres a good one. Cardistry is like building Model Trains. Both are hobbies, both are things people enjoy spending time on, and both are things people get together to showcase to each other. However, if my hobby were Model Train building, I wouldn't have to face a wall of arrogant elitists determined to make me feel useless because I don't know something.

If I were to showcase my model trains, which would likely be totally crap since I don't know the first thing about model trains, I am sure there would be the elitists that would tell me to give up and just go home, but having known someone that builds model trains, you will find these people enjoy what they do and most of all enjoy helping other people enjoy what they do. There are certain people here, who I won't name but most of you will guess, that spend their time calling people like me n00b and that I should go back to living in my mom's basement because I can't do Pandora faster than Dave Buck, and because I don't like doing arm spreads. Last time I checked, I shouldn't have to do things I don't like, in my hobby.

If someone likes building steam engine models, who are you to tell them to build a diesel engine train just because EVERYONE builds steam engines? Ever think that some people just really like steam engines? That they get their fun from steam engines? That perhaps they would rather friendly advice and tips on their Steam Engines, rather than being told to do something different that they don't enjoy? I'd like to congratulate Vinnie C who despite being always helpful and calm as the moderator he is, I recently saw him offer 1 on 1 advice to someone struggling with what I thought was a fairly easy thing. He, being around since time began and infinitely more wise than myself, could have easily told the guy "to practice more" like most people, but he offered to actually help the person out rather than flaming him with "USE THE SEARCH BUTTON" or "Wow, You suck".

I know there are others who like Vinnie are very helpful to others and use their experiance to help others including myself on occasion, little can be said to the others who drag the community down. I'm sure most others have noticed that those considered 'really good' are rarely found on these online boards, and having read TheCuso's interviews with Jordan Lapping among others, few have any interest in the online community because it offers them nothing. I have been flourishing for a while now and have created a couple of neat little things, nothing fancy, that I haven't seen elsewhere but I do not wish to share them. Not because I am greedy and think I am so amazing for making them up, because I'll probably find most were already created, but because I will be assaulted with "omg what's new about that" and "wow it's just another display".

Sure there may be nothing fantastic about it, but a community is about sharing and giving help, what is the point when people are afraid because they will get more negative feedback than good? I'm better off just PMing those that are kind enough to help than to trust anything in an open discussion. There is a big difference between constructive criticism, and being an ass, and unfortunately very few seem to be good at the constructive part. I try my best to be kind. I'm not that great myself so I can relate to others who are starting out and understand they are going through the same things I did, and still do. I don't see why everyone can't help each other, there is no curtains and mirrors here, it's just a fun hobby. Why can't it have a community like a hobby and not a war zone?

 

[Theaman]

AMEN!

GIVE US SO CALLED n00bs A BREAK!
DONT CRITICISE UNLESS IT IS CONSTRUCTIVE.
DONT PUT US DOWN.
HELP US OUT.
PEACE MAN,

PEACE.

 

[Mesmer]

Just to respond to one aspect of your essay, people don't share new things because of two basic reasons: pride and money.

Pride comes in when people start feeling good about themselves because "they know something that you don't know", and the fact that you want to know it boosts their ego. So instead of sharing it, to further the art, they keep it to themselves in order to pamper their pride.

Money comes in because a lot of folks have in the back of their mind the idea that they can somehow sell their moves for a few bucks; if not now, then down the road. This can also keep them from sharing new things too.

What is the solution? I don't know...

P.S. I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong for people to want to sell their stuff, or keep it for themselves. Just that these things can keep the art from being advanced, and they can keep the community from really being much of a community.

 

[harapanong]

You know..

I am sure that in some other communities, there are instances where some moves are not shared because the creator "wishes to keep it as his pet move".

But what makes this kind of mentality even more rampant in the cardistry community is simple:

MOST FLOURISHERS ARE ALSO MAGICIANS.

- harapan. magic!

P.S. But yeah, I think I agree with your post, just maybe it sounds a little too extreme.

 

[Jonas]

As for sharing, I do/did. As for being constructive, I'm usually not.

Producing a good-quality product takes a lot of time, and you really need to get your name out there if you want your hard work to be worth the money. I realized how pointless it is to just hold onto stuff when you're most likely never going to make a DVD anyway. The art needs more sharing amongst people to move forward, especially when it comes to new concepts. I shared 5 of my favourite creations a while back, to be honest my real intention wasn't really because people need to share, it was by the old expression "Out with the old, in with the new". I needed a kick in the direction of creating some new material since my old material isn't valuable anymore.

As for being constructive, it doesn't always depend on your attitude about flourishes, but sometimes about your general attitude. I'm not always serious either, but as known, sarcasm doesn't always play very well in text. I've given constructive feedback so many times before though that I've gotten sick of it, and I see people do the same old mistakes every time.

 

[trashmanf]

Great post UnholyGodn! I completely agree! Vinnie is DA MAN!!!!

 

[Vinnie C.]

Thank you very much for the kind words UnholyGodn and Trashmanf!

I have a few comments for everyone,

Regarding the sharing of moves:

Ultimately it's up to the person whether or not they want to share the move, and as much as some would like the person to release the move, they cannot, and should not try to, force the person to release it. Personally, I have my own original moves, many that I quite like, and I WILL release some of these for free. But a lot of them I am keeping to myself for the release of a product(s), seeing as I plan to go pro in card manipulation.

And regarding exposure: It's largely about respect. If someone makes a move, and does not wish it to be taught everywhere, then people should have the respect to not teach it.

Good points, I agree with your post.

-Vince

 

[UnholyGodn]

Just to clarify, I don't expect everyone to start sharing their signature moves and things everyone has their 'trade secrets'. It's more about the community being more open and helpful, encouraging new ideas and concepts, discussing what makes flourishing unique. Cerca Trova has attempted to fix problems with Magic, I feel that Flourishing kind of needs some sort of direction or at least collaboration if it ever wants to evolve.

The point of community is collaboration, if someone wants to submit a flourishing routine for review they should be able to get some good advice on the routine not "Do less cuts". If they are doing a cutting routine, obviously they aren't going to start doing twin arm spreads off a diving board just to liven things up.

I was shocked when I saw people attacking Jordan Lapping for not creating his own material. I love Jordan's work, especially his editing and just his love for cards and the dedication that shows through everything he does and how he if never happy until something is 12 steps beyond perfect. He may not create his own material, but why does he have to? What is the point of Dan and Dave releasing their material if no one can perform it because it's not 'original'? While creativity and new things are required for a hobby to evolve, if someone isn't interested in creating new things, there is no harm in that. There are always the people that just enjoy the hobby and there are those that want to push it new places, being a hobby, I say people can do whatever they want.

PS: Jonas, I loved your tutorials, I love Twisted, I seem to remember you being rather helpful to me in the YouTube Comments. Too bad you took them down before I could learn any of the others

 

[richard]

Unfortunately I agree with you -- there is a lot of ego in play in the flourishing world. I believe it stems from some of the early "celebs," if you know what/who I mean. That paved the way and set the example for other people as well. I believe they've "infected" the community in that way which is absolutely unfortunate.

Oh no -- if I made a move and performed it and published it online you can't do it even if you credit me!
If you do magic you're a stupid head!
A two-handed cut? Those are g**.
How come you don't have an armspread, fan, and a spring in each one of your videos (even if its only 20 seconds long?)
Wow you just started learning... what a "n00b" go home (that really grinds my gears... everybody was a n00b.)

There's a lot of inner turmoil, and its been propogated through years. That was one thing I tried to help fix with Decknique which, although I believe has improved, still exists. I'm not sure what the best way to solve it is.

 

[trashmanf]

probably the best way to "solve" it is to get some thicker skin. You can't change the way other people think, but you can change yourself. If you're seriously not posting videos because you're afraid someone is going to say one of richard's 5 comments... get over it! there's always going to be some jerk out there, the best you can do is just ignore them and/or not take them too seriously, I mean come on sticks and stones right? most of the comments aren't like that. no need to focus on the few that are.

 

[richard]

It is possible to change the way other people think. One is brainwashing, another one is just leading by good example and having people look up to somebody who isn't a jerk, another one is providing incentives to not be a jerk.

And what you say is not an excuse for anybody to be a jerk.

The funny thing too is that it's actually better than it was, I think...

 

[Bryan Brush]

In an attempt to clear my own mind and help you...

First off, I must address that while an extremely large number of the members on here will probably have no recollection that I've even been around in the cardist and magic communities before, I have seen quite a lot. It's probably close to two years now since I decided to drop back from all the communities, watch from a third party stance, talk to only the people that I recognized as trustworthy and friends, and focus on the art forms rather than the communities and issues that arrive within them. I noticed that myself, as well as many others became so distracted by the community that they started to forget why they actually joined the communities at all.

This post is being made for the fact that I need to express my thoughts in an attempt to help UnholyGodn as well as possibly create a rift to return to the communities to the old days. That was a Wednesday by the way. However, the odds of accomplishing this are relatively slim since while there are people that still care, the majority doesn’t want to contribute, they simply want to take. Since I've been inspired by Harlan Ellison's "Repent Harlequin!" Said the Ticktockman I will continue with my post.

UnholyGodn,

With the myriad of thoughts and issues I have a desire to express to you it is difficult to narrow in on a statement to properly begin my address to you. The only way I can see to properly begin is to inform you that I'm proud that there are members in this community, new or not, that still are willing to attempt to express their concerns. By creating this thread and producing the post you have made you've shown that you obviously have some sort of love and respect for this art form as well as your fellow community members.

There are however concerns that I have with your post. While you obviously care, I suggest to you a lesson that I have noticed is extremely vital in having your post seen as respectable and worthy enough for thought and discussion. Statements such as “arrogant, ignorant morons” are harsh, somewhat hypocritical and would cause some people simply stop reading when they arrived at those words (This doesn’t meant to include them at the end, however).

You see, the people you really need to be talking to are the people that you feel are being disrespectful to those new to the art and those that are struggling with learning it. If you merely talk to those that agree with you then nothing is being accomplished except a group of people agreeing with one another. This does not do much in the way of fixing the problem. So, from the experience I’ve had in the past, I would suggest that you refrain from ever using phrases that insult the people you feel have insulted you. I know it seems tough and unfair, but if you ever expect them to stop calling you “n00b5” you should make sure that you don’t reform to them in any sort of degrading manner.

Now, to actually get down to the actual issue at hand it becomes even more difficult for me to focus my thoughts. The reason I left the communities a while back seems endless and one of the issues is that of arrogance and disrespect. However, at that time there was not a large barrier between those new to the art and those with a large amount of experience. The arrogance and disrespect was actually scattered amongst everyone and also between different communities. (Look up Daryl’s Black and White video for a beautiful demonstration of someone who tried to end that issue. Thankfully the issue has seemed to come to a close.)

With the development of this barrier amongst the “experienced” and the “new” it’s not that arrogance has arisen, but simply that it has been magnified. Other members have suggested issues of pride and the issue of financial gain. These are only some of the reasons for why this “Arrogance” seems to exist, but let me play devils advocate for a while.

One of the issues you seemed to be concerned most about is that there is a lack of willingness to share amongst the community. You created a model train reference in an attempt to convey your thoughts. This comparison is completely out of place and has several major fallacies that don’t help your argument. One of the key aspects that separates cardistry from this world of “hobbies” that you suggested is the fact that this can be perceived - though it’s not publicly recognized as – an art form rather than just a hobby.

I must take a second to note that I, personally, view a difference between art, and art forms. A beautiful designed model train set up, with elaborate scenery, etc. can be seen as a piece of art. However, the actual concept of placing track, clipping a train to it, and then starting it is not artistic at all. In this art form of ours, EVERY aspect of what is accomplished pertains to the art that is the performance. This is all very difficult to grasp and I could ramble for hours in an attempt to create a clear explanation, but I must return to my previous thoughts

In our art form everything we do is created from an idea specifically for the art. In model trains you can easily take something from the real world, such as a train station and duplicate it as a model train. All model train setups are based off of something that exists in the real world even if what they’re building doesn’t actually exist. Flourishes are ALWAYS developed from intangible thought. Perhaps none of this makes sense, and part of that is yet another reason I left the communities. It’s difficult to portray the thoughts I’m attempting to convey.

To break away from anything that is theory based or complicating I will tell you this, UnholyGodn, you must begin to set an example for your fellow members, help those that you can help, always make sure the information you’re presenting is accurate, and try to be an ambassador between those that have been around a long time and those that are new. If you want change you must begin to bridge the gap, and eventually people will join you until ultimately the gap is deleted and there is a blend amongst the experienced and the beginners.

I apologize if this post seems to be nothing more than a mass of hard to understand rambles, but with my present state of being extremely busy and the amount of frustration that is in my mind when I think about the communities now to what they once were, it is difficult for me to say what I want to say. It’s even more difficult to say it in a clear and presentable manner. Dissect my post the best you can so that you can possibly take something away from it.

Remember these thoughts:
In order to obtain respect one must be respectable. So act in ways that will gain you respect.

Since everything in cardistry is based off of intangible thoughts there is a justified reason why people don’t want to give everything they’ve created away. They may be willing to help you with other things however, so ask for help with what you know. Build friendships and eventually you may actually be introduced to the things those people have been keeping to themselves. If they don’t want to release that to you they have every right. You can’t ask for them to give their thoughts up for free.

Find those that still care. They exist, but they’re difficult to come by. If you can form a friendship with them do. If you can’t form those friendships then keep trying to find others.

Finally, if the community gets too bad stop worrying about it and start focusing on making yourself better through practice. This, to you, is something you enjoy doing so just enjoy it without dealing with the subculture politics that are produced from these communities.

 

[trashmanf]

.... The arrogance and disrespect was actually scattered amongst everyone and also between different communities. (Look up Daryl’s Black and White video for a beautiful demonstration of someone who tried to end that issue. ...

Got a link? I tried to look it up and couldn't find it anywhere. Did you mean Daren not Daryl

good point too about practicing instead of crying, if someone calls you n00b what better course of action to take than to challenge them to a battle and drop some killer skillz on their azz. PWNED.

 

[Fiddlingsteve]

The video is Daryl, not daren.

I don't see a lot of the really experienced guys bashing the new guys, I see the guys who are into it a little more bashing the "noobs". Give them a little confidence and they take it to far.

 

[ace18]

I agree with Bryan.

And like some one else said. If you only listen to the positive, you are going nowwhere. Honestly it is the negative that will help you in the long run.

Learn to take the negative in stride, that is probably one of THE greatest lessons you can learn in Cardistry. Why? Because, as you said, it is everywhere.

Now I am gonna voice the other side of this arguement:

When I see all these YouNoobs (Yes, I said the N-Word, get over it) showing their "skills", I would most likely be the first one to go off on them. Why?

Because of all the Positive re-enforcement they receive.

Seriously if I watch a video, and it looks like someone took a monstrous dump on all of the cuts in the vid. THE last thing they deserve is: "wow", "That was amazing", "Your a god".

So I swoop in with a negative telling them how bad they did, and then a positive by telling them everything they did wrong, and maybe possible solutions to fix it.

Now can someone please tell me what follows my comment? Ah yes, Timmy?

Timmy: A slew of hateful comments back.
Me: That is correct Timmy! Here is a cookie.
Timmy: Yay.

Why you ask? Because after all these positive comments, they can't take a single negative. They are so used to being praised for mediocrity, they think they are the sh*t and can do all there cuts this bad from now on. Which is wrong. Now me going off on them probably could be counted as wrong also, but do I care if they can't take my criticism? Honestly, not really, since I know they won't listen anyway, even though I am, deep down, trying to help them.

That is the inexperienced helping/boosting the inexperienced. And really that takes you nowhere. If I EVER got a comment from someone with experience, I took it immediately to heart, no matter how negative it was, because I know that they know what they are doing, and it would be ignorant of me to not take there advice.

Example: my OLD video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR9T0pxUXn0

Look at some of the comments on this. I think 99% are positive. Now I have no problem with that, it makes me feel good inside. But the real world is not Sunshine and Tulips.

Comments on Decknique: http://decknique.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2329&highlight=Escape

Look at these comments. Mostly negative. Now sure it brought me down a couple of notches, well alot. But I took it instride and didn't, go off on some tirade on how they should be nicer, because if you can't take the negative, then you are pretty much being hypocritical.

Now can someone please tell me which is going to, in the end, make me better?

Timmy: Most likely the negative ones, since they point out your weakness.
Me: Damn Timmy, you are good.

Remember people for every positive there is a negative. We can't be nice to each other all the time, if we did we would go nowhere! So if you can't take somepeople being "mean" to you, then leave, or don't post videos. Because all your videos are not gonna be Superstar Caliber, the only way you are gonna get there is through practice, criticism, and maybe a little negativity to give you a little "revenge" motivation.

This is all I have to say right now. And I COMMEND anyone that actually read this all the way through.

 

[trashmanf]

Wow ace now you're MY hero! great point, the meaningless positive comments (i thouht it luked kewl 5/5) don't help you to be a better flourisher at all.

 

[ace18]

Wow ace now you're MY hero! great point, the meaningless positive comments (i thouht it luked kewl 5/5) don't help you to be a better flourisher at all.

Now we are even then.

 

[Kev H]

Got a link? I tried to look it up and couldn't find it anywhere. Did you mean Daren not Daryl

Here's a link to the video.

Speaking of which, that's the thing that really grinds my gears - because this is such a (relatively) new art form, not many people beginning in it know of the existing standards, save for what come up in the first pages of a Google search. Never before did I think there'd be a day when I would have to read a conversation like this:


A: "hey, do you know a guy called bone?"

B: "ya i heard he's pretty good."


On the one hand, we have ignorant beginners. On the other hand, we have those who aren't not being helpful to the former.

Do the right thing, guys. Pack away the pride and remember that you, too, were once a n00b.

-Kev "never ever drops cards... ever" H

 

[UnholyGodn]

I do not expect everyone to be all rainbows and bunnies and say things are amazing when they aren't. You are right in that the "I thought it looked good" comments are useless, but at least they are encouraging. Comments like "wow that was the worst video I have ever seen" is not constructive in the least. Ace, while some of the comments on your video were negative, most contained some form of criticism or justification for why they didn't like it. You can grow and get better from those things. I never really had a problem with this in the Days of Decknique, there seemed to be more of a balance between the useless and the helpful people.

Bryan, I know I used some harsh words and I probably shouldn't have, I can get a little carried away at times and don't fully think out what I'm trying to say which leads to me writtiing a lot and not really getting my point across at all. Whether Cardistry is an art or not (I mean, what isn't art these days?) it is still a hobby. While you may take offense to people not thinking Cardistry is an art, people spend hours designing and creating beautiful model trains (It's not all about buying a model kit and cutting out a sprue) and most people see it no further than a hobby. I do not wish to bring this into a debate over whether cardistry is or isn't an art because that would just make this whole issue a whole lot messier.

My problem is less the negative comments people make, because negative comments can be helpful if they are constructive, and more with the general 'exclusive elite' vibe that surrounds the community. I've seen new people here yelled at for not using the search feature, but not here, but on DanAndDave and Decknique! Not everyone in the community immediately knows that Dan and Dave and Decknique even exist. I mean how many people here know of The3C? It's a nice cardistry forum run by TheCuso among others, but it's relatively unknown. New people are expected to know everything from the word go, and are discouraged from asking question they can't find the answer to or get the help they need because those with the answers are so sick of answering questions.

I think the easiest solution for that is a collaborative article that takes the sticky Vinnie started and expands it greatly. Covering all the things like Jerry's (Which stems a few thousand threads a day), where to get cards cheap, where to get 'rare' cards, where people can find help for certain moves, tips and advice on first starting out (remember when clipping cards felt so weird?), perhaps even some history of Cardistry (Where did it start? Who are the memorable contributors? I wouldn't be surprised if most of the people here didn't know what CheatersCheater was), maybe even provide links to some of the good reviews available for the products mentioned in the current sticky. There are so many threads on most of these topics, it's impossible to search for what you need, if it were laid out nice and simply I think it would go a long way to reducing the grind felt my the experienced members in having to face a thousand basic questions and hopefully loosen them up (In the nicest possible way) so perhaps discussion, such as this could evolve.

I mean there are so many things that go untalked about. Why do people really enjoy flourishing? What makes a good flourish? Why do we consider Flourishing an art form? Where do we want flourishing to get to? Do we even want more people to flourish, or do people prefer this exclusive club that has developed? If the community doesn't have an idea of where it sees itself, there is no real community, more just a bunch of people with similar interests in one place. A community functions as a whole, some like this idea others don't, the fact that there is no cohesive decision either way and everyone just kind of floats about in a usless mess holds back an actual community being formed.

 

[Bryan Brush]

UnholyGodn,

I understand your concerns for negativity vs. positive suggestions and appropriate criticism. It is an ever growing problem. This "Elite" that you speak of sounds like a thoroughly preposterous bunch. However, two of the people that have posted in this very thread have been around for quite some time, are extremely skilled and both of them are great guys who do actually want to see the community do well. Sure sometimes they may say something a little negative (though that's not something I really ever see), but they don't seem to me to be a part of this elite you're referring to. I believe what you're referring to is a group of individuals that don't understand the concept behind these communities we have. The only way to correct this, as I've said, is to talk to them about it. Furthermore, find those individuals (such as the two I previously mentioned thought not by name) that care greatly about this relatively new art form and try to befriend individuals like that.

However, remember that famous proverb of "Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer." Don't let yourself get pulled into just one small group. Remember that you're a member of a community and therefore you need to try and interact with everyone. This includes those that you feel have acted in a negative light. If you don't set an example and try to interact with them you'll only push them further away and make the problem worse.

As for the art form vs art vs. hobby argument I'm not going to get upset about you referring to it as a hobby. Though, you're question about what isn't art today...well I could ramble off a lot of things that aren't, especially since I'm sure my old friend Kev H could find something artistic, about say, a clogged toilet. Don't get me wrong about model railroading either. One of my dear friends is an absolute genius with the stuff. The things he's done are astounding to me. But the argument about art vs. art form vs. hobby is a discussion all of it's own. I will state this an art form can be a hobby but this does not mean that a hobby is an art form.

Finally, as to this whole "Search bar" incident it is a bit obnoxious to be shot down whenever you start a thread looking for help and get nothing but a "use the search bar idiot!" in response. However, these are the things that MUST be remembered when participating in a community.

1. Those members that have been around will treat you respectfully if you treat them respectfully. Part of the way of doing this is adhering to all forum rules.

2. Remember to use the search function. It really isn't difficult and while you may forget at times, building a habit of it is a good thing. It saves clutter and avoids irritating incidents such as the ones you have described.

3. Those members that have been around should be aware that a person that is new to the community may not be aware of all of the rules and the power of the all mighty search function that so many bow down and worship. So it is the duty of those members to explain the rules in a hospitable manner and present the suggestion of using the search function before starting future threads.

4. The reason people may get upset is because they repeatedly have to inform people to read the rules and use the search function. Repetition is an irritating thing. My work as an optoelectronic technician showed me that clearly. Sometimes people may forget that they were once in that persons shoes and will make a poor statement. It is best to learn that forgiveness in communities that are online is an essential aspect.

Finally, as Kev said, we've all been there so we all need to remember that. As I've said over and over now, respect is a two way street.

To my old friend Kev,

I noticed you mentioned how the majority of people that are new have not taken the time to actually delve in and research the relatively short history of this new art form. Perhaps someone should consider creating a rolling history of what has happened that can be updates as time progresses. Weird concept that ruled through my head, but is slightly off topic so I just wanted to address it to you without straying too far.

To everyone,

Take care. Depending on my schedule I may or may not return to this thread to discuss some more. Time is silm for me as of late so just writing a post like this takes a lot of time out of the day for me. I wish all of you the best though. Good luck, and keep practicing AND performing.

-B