Another ethical question - Who would you work for?

Dec 14, 2007
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This is the line I found interesting:

I don't make a living strictly from magic, but this show would have been one that I could have started to charge more for.

Charging more simply because someone HAS more seems misguided (if not unethical).

Charging more simply because you landed one big gig seems misguided.

You should start charging more when you have greater value to offer. And then, you should still charge slightly less than the value you deliver.
But that's just an opinion. Not everyone wants to give their clients more than they pay for - but some do.
 
Dec 10, 2007
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I really hope you didn't just insult me.

No, I was just saying that of all the states, Texas loves Capital Punishment the most. They kill more criminals by far than any other state. In 2009 they killed 24 people, the second highest state was Ohio with 5. lol.

So the idea that you are for it and live in Texas isn't really surprising, that's all.

Charging more simply because someone HAS more seems misguided (if not unethical).

I presume that you also believe that charging people LESS simply because they cannot afford it would also be unethical to the clients that you charge regularly then right?
 
Dec 14, 2007
817
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First, I too am from texas and found nothing offensive about the capital punishment reference.

Two, charging one group less does seem unfair to others who have paid more.

The only way to avoid that quandry, it would seem, is if all persons you were charging were aware you used a sliding scale based on their perceived income - and, of course, you had that scale published.

Other means of payment could also be used in lieu of cash. As michael ammar once said, I might do a show for free but I won't do it for nothing
 

RickEverhart

forum moderator / t11
Elite Member
Sep 14, 2008
3,637
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Louisville, OH
I think Brad was referring to other items such as sometimes you will do a gig and people will do one or a few of the following in lieu of cash:

1.) food
2.) tickets to a game / event
3.) seats in their company louge (sp)
4.) discounted or free merchandise at the store they own
5.) free advertising or radio time

things along these lines maybe.
 
Dec 14, 2007
817
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While barter is an option, michael was referring to other rewards - it could be advertising, network opportunities, pr, the chance to acquire promotional data, future work etc. However, many people promise things like 'exposure' when all they hope to do is get services for free. As a musician friend of mine says - remember, people die from exposure.

However, there are some shows that can reasonably lead to real opportunities. It is my experience, though, that those types of events seldom try to sell you on that fact. Quite the contrary, they are the kinds of events YOU discover and angle to become associated with.

If someone tries to talk you down, promising it will be great exposure, then be smart and get every detail of their responsibilities in writing - how many ads will you appear in, how will people at the event be made aware of you and your services, will you be given the client list following the event, etc

And don't fall prey to the 'its for charity' scam. Some charity events are wonderful and deserve support. Some - not so much. for example, I was once asked to supply two closeup magicians for a 'good cause.' Not only did the charity event organizer try to demand that my performers perform in an unagreed upon manner that would prove detrimental to their performances, they paid another magician 3k to come in and perform.

I asked specifically if any vendors or performers were being paid.

They lied.

People do that - so, be careful.
 
No, I was just saying that of all the states, Texas loves Capital Punishment the most. They kill more criminals by far than any other state. In 2009 they killed 24 people, the second highest state was Ohio with 5. lol.

So the idea that you are for it and live in Texas isn't really surprising, that's all.



I presume that you also believe that charging people LESS simply because they cannot afford it would also be unethical to the clients that you charge regularly then right?

Twiddling my fingers here thinking of who I'm gonna kill next.;)
 

Justin.Morris

Elite Member
Aug 31, 2007
2,793
888
Canada
www.morrismagic.ca
Other means of payment could also be used in lieu of cash. As michael ammar once said, I might do a show for free but I won't do it for nothing

I recently did a show for a local movie theater and got paid half cash and half in a year supply of movie tickets. IT was the first time I did something like that.

...
Charging more simply because someone HAS more seems misguided (if not unethical).

Charging more simply because you landed one big gig seems misguided.

You should start charging more when you have greater value to offer. And then, you should still charge slightly less than the value you deliver.
But that's just an opinion. Not everyone wants to give their clients more than they pay for - but some do.


Ha ha, nice catch Brad. I totally agree. And I have to admit that I did not mean it as I wrote it. In fact, before she told me who she worked for I gave her a standard quote for what I charge. However, what I was referring to was that moving from the $500-$1500 range to the $1500-$5000 range, requires different clients. (very simplistically) One moves from birthdays, to small corporate, to large corporate. My show is at the point where I want to begin charging more (because it's worth it at this point imo), but I need to be getting bookings from the right clients who can afford my show. Sorry for the misleading earlier statement.

This would however make another great ethics thread, because I know many working professionals who disagree.
 
Jul 10, 2010
277
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30
McAllen, TX
www.wix.com
5000 is a bit much man. The max I have seen a professional charge is between 500-700 and they have their own lights, sound, everything. Good luck is all I can say if you want to charge 5 grand lol. Especially if its in this economy. But then again I live in a poorer area, small town Texas. Maybe in a big city that might work but still. 5,000....
 

Justin.Morris

Elite Member
Aug 31, 2007
2,793
888
Canada
www.morrismagic.ca
5000 is a bit much man. The max I have seen a professional charge is between 500-700 and they have their own lights, sound, everything. Good luck is all I can say if you want to charge 5 grand lol. Especially if its in this economy. But then again I live in a poorer area, small town Texas. Maybe in a big city that might work but still. 5,000....

Heh, it is a very different economy where I live. Granted that is just a scale and I don't charge anywhere near 5000 (nor is my show worth that), but consider that someone like Steve Cohen can get paid 10 - 20,000 for a private party show (info from his website).

Corporate professionals get paid thousands to do what they do. One guy I recently spoke to over the phone said he won't even leave the house for less than a thousand.

I'm not there, but I'd love to be eventually. Constantly refining and working on my show at a part time is a slow process, but It's getting better and better all the time.
 
Jul 10, 2010
277
0
30
McAllen, TX
www.wix.com
Heh, it is a very different economy where I live. Granted that is just a scale and I don't charge anywhere near 5000 (nor is my show worth that), but consider that someone like Steve Cohen can get paid 10 - 20,000 for a private party show (info from his website).

Corporate professionals get paid thousands to do what they do. One guy I recently spoke to over the phone said he won't even leave the house for less than a thousand.

I'm not there, but I'd love to be eventually. Constantly refining and working on my show at a part time is a slow process, but It's getting better and better all the time.

Ya building a good show is tough and a REALLY lengthy process lol. I have worked on my show for a year now and I only have a solid twenty minuet act. It's all "A" material though, no filler. What's your act like?
 

Justin.Morris

Elite Member
Aug 31, 2007
2,793
888
Canada
www.morrismagic.ca
I have a stand up show 45-60 minutes. It is geared for an adult audience and I perform for mostly corporate clients, and have done a lot for work for government and university functions. I see a lot of weak points in my show personally (i'm sure I always will), but I find it difficult to get honest/unbiased feedback.

My biggest struggle is trying to find a closer that I love.

But it sells, and I get repeat business and referrals, even though I charge what I think it's worth. So that is a bonus.
 
Dec 14, 2007
817
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Hi,

Justin

Thanks for commenting and clarifying. The fact is a LOT of magicians think the way I described. They get $150 for birthday shows and when a corporation calls they try to jack up their price even when they have no experience working that market, let alone anything different to offer. Likewise, I have seen guys who think now that they have done their show twice that its time to start charging what established pros in the area are working for.

Sadly, if they have good promo, they can often land the gig --- once.

Success, in my mind, comes not from getting any one gig, but from having the same client years upon years.

To comment on zac's question, there is really no limit to what a talented, experienced magician can charge. Different markets have different needs and the value in having those needs filled varies. And while I think there is nothing wrong with having different prices for different services (after all, your mechanic doesn't charge you the same for an oil change as he does to rebuild an engine) I do think one should avoid the appearance of impropriety in case clients talk - and they do.

I have had a few show where the person calling would have literally paid anything I had asked. However, the first time this happened, I was unaware. It was for a lady in austin. Her asst called and we booked one of my higher end holiday shows. A month before they called to cancel. She had developed cancer. They said they would happily pay my fee, but I refused. What kind of guy takes money from a family dealing with cancer. I told them, that when she was better, to just have me for the next party. I really didn't care about the party, though it was a large chunk of change, but wanted to sound hopeful for their benefit. The asst seemed overly pleased with my response.

Sure enough, the next year she calls me to book the show. They don't want the real show, just for me to come in, be a guest, and do a little mingling magic and they insist on paying the full fee.

I show up, ring the door bell, and the governor answers the door. It wasn't his party - he was the guy they sent to get the door.

Turns out she had her birthday party the month before - they brought in elton john.

The point is, to these people my fee was like most of us going to mcdonalds. And I know people took advantage of them by gouging them with prices.

I also know that the asst told them about my attitude, and that made all of the difference. They considered me, not a worker, but an honored guest.

Sure I could have gotten more money, or even a bigger fee, but at what cost?

I know what value I can deliver. That influences my fee, not the 1099 of the person doing the hiring.

People talk, and those that get reputations for gouging not only loose jobs but they loose reputations.

Some guys are happy to do lots of shows ONCE. I'd rather to one show, for the same group, 15 or 20 years in a row.

But maybe that's just me.


//end of moral object lesson
 
Dec 23, 2007
1,579
4
36
Fredonia, NY
Brad. you are a prince a scholar and a gentleman and i firmly believe that Elite Prestidigitation's description is actually about you, you king of kings you Moral Hero.


i am not being sarcastic, really am impressed, the business could use more magician's with your kinda attitude.
 
Dec 14, 2007
817
2
Really hard to read tone on the internet, but in the event people get the wrong idea I will say there is nothing wrong about working for charities if you truly support their cause.

The issue I am trying to warn people about are those who promise things they have no intention on delivering or are simply trying to get something for free under the guise of the good cause.

Unfortunately, there are creepy people everywhere. And simply because a group is a non-profit does not mean that people aren't making money working for those groups nor does it mean they don't have money to spend.

Ultimately we each have to make our own decisions for ourselves. I just feel its a waste of energy for people to have to always learn 'the hard way.'

In short, get all the information you can, get their and your expectations in writing, and always deliver more than you promise.
 
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