Camera Tricks Are OK!

James Wise Magic

Elite Member
Dec 28, 2007
1,021
13
DUDE!! You took the words... wait a minutes! I couldn't disagree more!! In fact, what you said is a flat out lie!! There is no truth to anything you have said. He hasn't shown "millions on millions on millions" of fans ONLY on his TV show. Do you know how much a stadium fills up? About 30-40 thousand people. Do you know how much a million is, much less millions? He hasn't even shown close to a stadium full of people on his show, much less a million, or even millions.

He doesn't have any fans "across the world". In fact, most people outside of the USA haven't even heard of him. If his fans outweighed the haters, then his show wouldn't have been moved from the major networks to A&E.

So what if people are "entertained"? It's not magic. It's special effect, it's camera editing. That is not magic. There's so much more to magic than simply entertaining people.

dude, I've watched literally every episode, he's almost hit 100 episodes, have you seen some of those crowds? Youtube videos, his walk on water alone has 34 million views, not to mention the other millions of views on the other videos of him on youtube, and that's just youtube. And if you do a little bit of research Mindfreak his broadacasting in like 30 other countries other than the US. Yes, the US is where his primiary fans are but other people in other countries know of him.

And also as magicians we know there is more to magic than just entertainment but to laymen, magic is what the audience persieves; it's the end result, so what the audience experiences and what they remember happening is far more important than what we actually do.
 
Apr 27, 2010
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baller08.blogspot.com
There's so much more to magic than simply entertaining people.

Annnnnnnd that's why Criss Angel has been only 1 of 2 magicians in the last 15 years to make a big impact on the general public and actually made magic cool again because most magicians are clueless, secluded, and completely out of touch with normal people.

This is also why that despite all you "talented" magicians, the Masked Magician is more well known than anyone else till Blaine and Angel came along.

LOL..."there's more to magic than simply entertaining people". LOL! Wow...put down the magic history books and walk outside for a bit.
 
So what if people are "entertained"? It's not magic. It's special effect, it's camera editing. That is not magic. There's so much more to magic than simply entertaining people.

So movies can't be magic because they use special effects and editing? I'm not saying that magic and films are exactly the same but there are similarities. A good film can suspend disbelief and so can a good magician. Both can make you ask yourself, "What if that happened/ were possible?"

I'm neither defending Angel nor opposing him. Whether or not he is a good magician is debatable but either way I don't really care.
 
Aug 17, 2010
411
4
So movies can't be magic because they use special effects and editing?

That's right - movies are not magic. While they're both part of the larger group of "Theatre", they are different. Unless you're using the fallacy of equivocation to try and expand the meaning past what we're discussing, by using the meanings like "strangely enchanting" or "oddly moving" (as in there's magic in a sunset, or the magical qualities in the laughter of children, etc.).

Magic is a real time performance which makes an impossible claim and provides proof (albeit faked evidence and illusory proof). It's an effect with no cause in nature. It's theatre with no suspension of disbelief.

Movies make no such claim to reality. We know there's a cause within nature (edits, stand-ins, CGI, etc.), and that removes it from "magic". We suspend our disbelief to enjoy the story.

Next time, try telling your audience "This is a trick deck - a stripper deck, but let's all suspend our disbelief and go along with it. The same way we know Darth Vader's light sabre is just a special effect. Just pretend they're regular cards to enjoy the story."

That wouldn't be very magical.

Both can make you ask yourself, "What if that happened/ were possible?"

But one makes an implicit claim that it really did happen, and one relies on suspension of disbelief.

If you saw the original Star Wars, back in the day, there were matte lines and other things all over the place. But we overlook them to follow the story. If you've seen the musical Peter Pan live, you can see the wires that make Peter Pan fly. And we know it's an actor playing the part of Peter Pan, not the real Peter Pan in a story that happened some other time to some other people.

Magic is different. If someone sees the invisible thread, it's no longer magic - they won't suspend their disbelief to follow the story - it's no longer an inexplicable event.

Good magic puts you on the horns of a dilemma, between "there's no such thing as magic" and "there's no other explanation."

Magic happens right now, to the spectators, with no cause within nature. If there's a cause, it's no longer magic.
 
May 9, 2008
603
0
Annnnnnnd that's why Criss Angel has been only 1 of 2 magicians in the last 15 years to make a big impact on the general public and actually made magic cool again because most magicians are clueless, secluded, and completely out of touch with normal people.

This is also why that despite all you "talented" magicians, the Masked Magician is more well known than anyone else till Blaine and Angel came along.

LOL..."there's more to magic than simply entertaining people". LOL! Wow...put down the magic history books and walk outside for a bit.

"Criss Angel has been only 1 of 2 magicians in the last 15 years to make a big impact on the general public". GUYS GUYS!! NEWS FLASH. Did you know Criss Angel and 1 other magician have been the only magicians to make a big impact on the general public? I guess Wayne Houchin might as well hang it up. Sorry David Copperfield, sorry Lance Burton. Sorry Dan Sperry, you're performance on America's Got Talent, people just though you were a cheesy magician, just look at the lack of reactions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xh4yyPvTV0). According to B_08, you're completely out of touch with normal people. Sorry every magician at theory11. If you're not like Criss Angel, you haven't made a big impact on anyone, because you're secluded. Criss Angel = what people want! What don't you get? We should all aspire to be Criss Angel. Well, ok, so I 100% don't agree with this at all, but that's what B_08 would have you believe. Dude, B_08, where do you get your facts? I know countless magicians who have made a big impact. Sure they're not household names, but who cares? If you're goal, out of thousands of magicians is to be a household name, I'd think you're being unrealistic. Why the hell would you want that kind of fame? "Criss Angel" made magic cool again? As in trendy? Perhaps. Please explain how Criss Angel made magic cool again. In was aspect? In what regards? Do you mean people enjoy watching magic more because of Criss Angel? Do you mean people picking up magic as a hobby because of Criss Angel? What do you mean? I've always found magic cool, and I'm sure others have always found magic cool, not because of Criss Angel. You didn't one day think magic was cool just because a guy in his 40s screams into a camera, and does magic shirtless. Who thought magic wasn't cool? If people thought magic wasn't cool before, I'm pretty sure Criss Angel hasn't changed much. If you're talking about a 13 year old kid, doing magic tricks in a top hat, from his magic kit he was purchased from Wal-Mart, then yeah, that's kind of "uncool". However, if that's your perception of most magicians these days, you need to get your head out of the sand.


I don't think we're ever going to see eye-to-eye on Criss Angel, period. You're argument for Criss Angel has been picked apart so many times, and I don't feel the need to go down that road again. Something tells me you have posters of Criss Angel on every wall of your bedroom. You think Criss Angel is in touch with "normal" people? I've seen his some of his fans, and they don't seem "normal" to me. Who do you personally know who think Criss Angel is cool. TV fans do not count. Your personal experience in magic doesn't speak for all magicians. Perhaps YOU were out of touch with normal people, perhaps YOU are clueless, perhaps YOU are secluded. So please speak for yourself, as you do not have the experience of others. How many magicians have you actually met? How many magicians do you actually know? Why do you always equate fame with success? No one knows who Chris Kenner is outside of the magic industry, yet he's very successful. I'd rather be a Criss Kenner, than a Criss Angel.
 
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May 9, 2008
603
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Thank you, exactly. Enough said. Put down the Star Wars movies too and get out. Go meet some girls and take some vacations. Magicians like you are why Angel is successful...he has no competition. So sad....so very sad.

You just proved my point. You have a complex with being famous. You seem very adolescent, very concerned with what is cool, what is trendy, worrying about what girls think, even though you probably don't come within a 15 foot radius of an actual woman. You need to GROW UP. It's sad, so very sad. Why do you find it so important for someone to be known by the general public to be a successful magician? Why do you find it important for there to be magicians competing the Criss Angel. And there you go again making assumptions. I'm not competing with Angel, nor do I have any desire to, nor should anyone else. Competing with Criss Angel would make me a Criss Angel wannabe, and I'm definitely not a Criss Angel wannabe. You failed to respond to any of the points that I made.

And because I am a fan of StarWars, as you deduced from my username, that means that I haven't gone on vacation, or met any girls, or get out? Hmmm, I don't follow your logic, but hey, way to perpetuate a stereotype! I've come to the conclusion that you either are Criss Angel himself, or are paid by Criss Angel, as the only time you pop your head in is when something is mentioned about Criss Angel. Judging from your profile picture, you're a nerdy Neo from the Matrix wannabe. Way to wear a leather coat when it's sunny. But that's just my assumption.

If you're curious, and as hard as it may be for you to believe, people who dislike Criss Angel, and like StarWars can meet girls, or in my case women, go on vacation, and get out. I find it funny that if someone doesn't like Criss Angel, you assume they are jealous of him, and therefore must be the opposite of him! NOT TRUE. Perhaps true for yourself, but not everyone else. Not that I need to explain myself to you, as I'm as entitled to my opinions as you are without having someone make a personal attacks, but I have met plenty of women. Probably more than you judging by your insecurity. I've met so many that I found my wife. *Whoa*(said in a Neo/Keanu Reaves voice). I took a vacation this summer to the north shore of lake superior. *Whoa* again. I "get out" all the time. *Whoa* again.

I'm not a magician. I'm a hobbyist. I'm a juggler who dabbles in magic. I've always been a fan of magic, but I prefer to juggle. I show the occasional trick to friends and family.
 
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James Wise Magic

Elite Member
Dec 28, 2007
1,021
13
Wow you guys are getting waaaaay off topic! Would you guys stop trying to insult each other and just have a civil conversation??? I mean seriously, I think BOTH of you need to grow up! If you disagree then fine, get over it! I disagree with about 98% of all the posts on this thread but you know what, I'm not gonna say you guys all suck and you never get girls and blah blah blah. Just relax and at least try to stay on topic........geeez.
 

Mad

Jul 16, 2009
14
0
Ladies and gentleman, none of us can truly say what magic really is, since it is an experience.
But what we all know is that an experience is different from person to person.
There is no need to say that what Criss does aint magic only because you or I feel it isnt.
If some other person say "thats the best magic I've ever seen" they have probably experienced "magic".

So in my honest opinion stop being greedy. If you are a good magician, mentalist or any other kind of entertainer of this sort, you will be able to amaze even if Criss is being successful. Remember that most of the people in the world today know that they shouldnt believe everything that is on TV.

What you also should remember is that laymen does not appreciate all the hard training you put down into tricks, since the method of achieving whatever you achieve make no sense to them. It is the end result that makes them react, not your practice.

Think about this, the trick SMOKE here on the site can blow peoples mind, and probably will if you are a good actor (like Criss Angel). And how much do you have to practice to get that reaction? Not much at all.
So hard work and magic doesnt always have to be linked together.

Live happy.
 
& we are STILL way off topic here. The topic wasnt about performance styles/sucess vs fame/whos made an impact in magic etc etc. The topic was about the ethics of using camera tricks, which a majority of you still havent answered. So again, the question is, is it ok to use camera tricks, yes, or no, & why?
 

James Wise Magic

Elite Member
Dec 28, 2007
1,021
13
& we are STILL way off topic here. The topic wasnt about performance styles/sucess vs fame/whos made an impact in magic etc etc. The topic was about the ethics of using camera tricks, which a majority of you still havent answered. So again, the question is, is it ok to use camera tricks, yes, or no, & why?

Yes it is ok. Sure it may not be a method you like but that's fine. There are methods to other tricks out there I don't like. And if the audience is entertained then that's all that matters. Of course some laymen are going to yell out fake to a camera trick, but laymen yell out fake to a legit trick and method alot anyways so there really is no difference. It all comes down to: Did the majority of the audience have fun and was entertained, if the answer is yes, then Criss Angel, and other magicians did their job. The end!
 
Jul 13, 2009
1,372
0
33
& we are STILL way off topic here. The topic wasnt about performance styles/sucess vs fame/whos made an impact in magic etc etc. The topic was about the ethics of using camera tricks, which a majority of you still havent answered. So again, the question is, is it ok to use camera tricks, yes, or no, & why?


Camera trickery should be left to the movies period. There is your answer, magic isn't about using masking techniques in post production to hide something. Magic isn't about hiring actors to play the part of a spectator NO! That is no longer a magic show or special, all you're left with is a television show that is like Eureka but isn't as interesting. Besides, I do not believe magic should be performed for a camera and it is meant to be seen live.
 
Apr 5, 2009
874
1
29
Illinois
& we are STILL way off topic here. The topic wasnt about performance styles/sucess vs fame/whos made an impact in magic etc etc. The topic was about the ethics of using camera tricks, which a majority of you still havent answered. So again, the question is, is it ok to use camera tricks, yes, or no, & why?

its good to see you back, you kind of left in a whirlwind last time.



but on topic. i don't like camera tricks, i think their dumb, they bother me. maybe its because i've put so much work into learning legit live sleight of hand. then somebody adds a camera, and suddenly it becomes easier for them to fool.. in a sense.


but on the ethical side i agree with Draven, its all about the entertainment. how its achieved. whatever.
 
Feb 4, 2008
959
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Camera tricks....no. Camera editing...Yes!

We can't have it both ways. We all use tricks that will require a bit of misdirection. If you want to perform one of those tricks on camera a bit of editing will be required. Angles are also a factor. The only other option is revealing some great effects to those people out there with a slow mo and a rewind button...ie everyone on youtube.
 
Oct 1, 2008
26
0
Northwest Indiana
I think the real issue here, is not his methods...wait for it...it's the fact that he set the bar too high. Method be damned. Hell, Copperfield and Blaine do/did 'TV' magic as well, roast crucify them with Criss. He doesn't have a team of 'consultants' because he sucks at what he does. They work with him because they see a skilled performer that can pull off some of the various effects for sale on many magic sites, including this one, for a mass audience. Final note, something tells me, despite the ranting and raving hubbub, you still watch his effin show.
 
May 9, 2008
603
0
Camera tricks....no. Camera editing...Yes!

We can't have it both ways. We all use tricks that will require a bit of misdirection. If you want to perform one of those tricks on camera a bit of editing will be required. Angles are also a factor. The only other option is revealing some great effects to those people out there with a slow mo and a rewind button...ie everyone on youtube.

Hey, you make an interesting point. It IS much harder to have misdirection on television as in the days of TIVO and DVRs it's much easier to pause live TV, rewind, and rewatch over and over again in slow motion. Thanks for giving me something intelligent to think about. I never really thought about that aspect to TV magic.
 
Aug 17, 2010
411
4
Why doesn't he just get Industrial Light and Magic to create a CGI Criss Angel that you can actually see get hit by a speeding motorcycle only to reappear elsewhere, while stooges act like he was really there?

Would anyone have a problem with that?
 
Feb 16, 2009
217
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South Bend, IN
& we are STILL way off topic here. The topic wasnt about performance styles/sucess vs fame/whos made an impact in magic etc etc. The topic was about the ethics of using camera tricks, which a majority of you still havent answered. So again, the question is, is it ok to use camera tricks, yes, or no, & why?

There is no ethical problem with using camera tricks. Magical tricks aren't done under oath. All this talk about the ethics of camera tricks misses the point. The problem with camera tricks is more a theatrical issue than a moral one

Spectators never react positively if they find out that an effect involved camera trickery. They feel duped and often react with anger. If someone uses camera tricks to achieve an effect, he better make sure nobody in the audience at home even suspects it.

The problem is that spectators expect some level of skill from the performer to achieve the magical effect. They view camera tricks as a cheap and talentless shortcut. Therefore, it is not only important for a performer to avoid camera tricks, but to also build conviction in the audience that what they are seeing is "real" and not the end product of a bunch of technicians with mad video editing skills.
 
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