Mentalism: how?

Aug 26, 2010
8
0
Hello.

Is mentalism supposed to work only on "common-minded" people?

Take Extraordinary Proof by Andrew Gerard (performed by Bro Gilbert, in Paul Harris' True Astonishments Vol. 5) for example. The explanation to it is very blurry, but in short words, you're supposed to force your spectator to stop at the card you want (they do it with the 17th card in the DVD). How do they force it? By employing mentalism. However, I just don't see it working. And when it does I can only guess it was random luck, because there are so many factors involved that aren't taken into account in the explanation. I fail to understand how a person can be lured into grabbing exactly that many cards. One less, or one more, and you're screwed.

There is a risk factor in everything you do in magic, but in mentalism this risk appears to be much, much bigger and the pay-off most of the time is the same as a non-mentalism trick (to the spectator's eye it's all "magic", anyway).

I understand that mentalism works -- to an extent. I just don't see it working as a vital part of a trick that you do to a stranger. Or, back to my example, I don't see how you can possibly force them to take 17 cards off the deck. There are more examples I could mention, but the tricks themselves are not the point. I took Extraordinary Proof as example because it's the best example I could mention that I know of.

(I have read about mentalism. I know some of you will tell me to "read books" which I have already read. Trust me, I wouldn't bother with creating a thread if I was clueless about its subject).
 
Im not familiar with this trick. But I'm not sure what you mean by 'Is mentalism supposed to work only on "common-minded" people?'. Mentalism can be as simple as Classic Forcing a card and revealing or as intense as a full psychological force and reveal.

J.
 
Nov 8, 2007
1,238
3
...Take Extraordinary Proof by Andrew Gerard (performed by Bro Gilbert, in Paul Harris' True Astonishments Vol. 5) for example. The explanation to it is very blurry, but in short words, you're supposed to force your spectator to stop at the card you want (they do it with the 17th card in the DVD)... I fail to understand how a person can be lured into grabbing exactly that many cards. One less, or one more, and you're screwed.
The effect is foolproof. It doesn't matter what card they stop on--it will always work.

Go back and watch the explanation again. Not sure how it happened but somehow you completely missed the method of the effect.
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,877
2,945
The thing with mentalism is that sometimes it does fail. It is not for those that are dependent on foolproof, 100%, all the time methods. It's funny, I've been having this conversation a lot lately, starting with a friend that saw me perform PK Time and miss the force. A good mentalism learns to thrive on that chance and to use failures as ways to convince people of the reality of their work. "It's not a trick, a trick works every time, this is real" kind of thing.

To this:
There is a risk factor in everything you do in magic, but in mentalism this risk appears to be much, much bigger and the pay-off most of the time is the same as a non-mentalism trick (to the spectator's eye it's all "magic", anyway).

You're wrong. Mentalism is more powerful than your average magic trick. Why? Because it seems real (when performed well). As, I believe, Annemann said, "Mentalism is the only adult form of magic left." (paraphrased, I'm sure I'll be corrected). To give you an example from my real world experience: A buddy of mine and I perform at a local farmers market every week. He is a much better magician than I am, as he's been doing this for 13 years and I've only been doing it for a bit over 2. I hear people constantly saying how good he is (even during my performances, much to my frustration). We also have this family that visits the market every week to see us, and they have become friends. I performed Stigmata for the eldest daughter and to this day she still says that's the strongest thing she's seen either of us perform. We both performed at her quincinera, as well, and when she was telling me the stuff she liked best, all of it was the mentalism I performed over the 'regular' magic either of us performed. When a performer seems to read someone's mind it strikes a chord with people. It sticks with them for a long time. A well executed ACR doesn't strike that same chord.
 
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Dec 18, 2007
1,610
14
64
Northampton, MA - USA
Mentalism, though it is a kindred art form, IS NOT the same thing as magic and should never be approached in a similar manner. In fact, most of the working pros of note will tell you to not see the things you do as a "trick" but more as phenomena that happens because of (insert your theme of choice here). The other thing most of the better known pros will tell you is that you strive towards belief... you want to dismiss the patron's disbelief and elicit from them an investment of belief. If you are doing sponge balls and then move into a "mentalism routine" you will not gain this mode of support simply because you've proven to folks that you are a magician... a trickster and thus, your presentation of whatever effect, must be a trick.

Understanding this and why one must segregate the two forms in order to gain the upper-hand as a "Psychic Entertainer" is the first major leap towards true Mentalism vs. "Mental Magic" (which is what the majority of folks actually do). This is something few recovering magicians want to hear but what I'm about to say takes their reluctance even further... AVOID CARD TRICKS!

While there are some card routines one can get away with, it is always best to replace the paste-boards with photos, artwork, postcards, etc. when you are presenting something with a mental theme. The reason is quite logical; there are three things playing cards are directly associated with -- games, gambling and magicians and in at least two of these categories manipulation, trickery and even mathematics are a known area of association. Just as we want to distance ourselves from traditional magic when doing Mentalism we must apply the same general logic when it comes to playing cards, dice and other such devices, employing them only when they are a last choice and/or, the most logical tool to be used in a given presentation. I will using the idea of Playing Cards in my shows/demonstrations from time to time but typically not in physical form. Rather, I actually do have people visualize the deck... I lean on the excuse magicians have used to justify using playing cards in mentalism for years but "hands free"... there are tons of bits that can be done in this manner or else under the ruse of using a borrowed deck that you never seem to touch, etc.

I point this out because Mentalists strive to make things as simple and as innocent as possible so as to psychological invoke belief... we remove from our presentation those things that might explain away what we do... we don't give our patrons an "out" as it were.

I should make note here... Stigmata IS NOT Mentalism... it's more akin to Bizarre Magick even though many attempt to place a paranormal slant to it.

If you want to be an effective and believable "Mentalist" then study the topics of PSI and Metaphysics or those aspects of Psychology and Body Language that would support the course/theme you plan on adopting. Part of creating believability is having a valid level of education and at least a somewhat legit sense of knowing what you're speaking of vs. the rhetoric we're told to buy into via all the magic books and skeptic's guides. This is one reason why Mentalism tends to flow in with short waves of popularity over 25 or so years; few of us are willing to invest as much time and hard work into creating the main illusion -- our self as a "gifted" entity.
 
Sep 1, 2007
18
0
Hello.

Is mentalism supposed to work only on "common-minded" people?

Take Extraordinary Proof by Andrew Gerard (performed by Bro Gilbert, in Paul Harris' True Astonishments Vol. 5) for example. The explanation to it is very blurry, but in short words, you're supposed to force your spectator to stop at the card you want (they do it with the 17th card in the DVD). How do they force it? By employing mentalism. However, I just don't see it working. And when it does I can only guess it was random luck, because there are so many factors involved that aren't taken into account in the explanation. I fail to understand how a person can be lured into grabbing exactly that many cards. One less, or one more, and you're screwed.

There is a risk factor in everything you do in magic, but in mentalism this risk appears to be much, much bigger and the pay-off most of the time is the same as a non-mentalism trick (to the spectator's eye it's all "magic", anyway).

I understand that mentalism works -- to an extent. I just don't see it working as a vital part of a trick that you do to a stranger. Or, back to my example, I don't see how you can possibly force them to take 17 cards off the deck. There are more examples I could mention, but the tricks themselves are not the point. I took Extraordinary Proof as example because it's the best example I could mention that I know of.

(I have read about mentalism. I know some of you will tell me to "read books" which I have already read. Trust me, I wouldn't bother with creating a thread if I was clueless about its subject).

I think you are not the smartest kid from your town....
 
Dec 18, 2007
1,610
14
64
Northampton, MA - USA
I think you are not the smartest kid from your town....

That was rather rude, not to mention that you didn't explain why this is your personal view.

I do understand the knee jerk... the original poster is using the wrong terms to explain himself but that could be due to language issues or even medical problems.

In that I went astray previously I'm going to augment things a tad...
htraos, based on your expressed confusion it seems that you're rather new to magic, not just mentalism. While I'm not a big one for this kind of card stunt, I can say that the method is rather simple but you have confused the method with what Mentalism is, I believe.

The term "Mentalism" and title "Mentalist" actually comes from a couple of esoteric sources popular in the late 1800s into the early 1900s, typically associated with either Theosophy or Hermetic Law, the first axiom being that all things are "Mental" -- Mind is All! Our understanding of that axiom, along side the others that go with it (see: The Kybalion). Given the era and public intrigue with things Spiritualistic, Occult, etc. showmen of the day adopted the term, applying it to a developing field within the world of theatrical magic; an arena in which the performer would apparently Read Minds, create acts of Mesmerism (Hypnosis), even commune with spirits. Other facets of this area soon became common, such as the more analytical and non-esoteric displays of Mega Memory, the Human Calculator, Lie Detectors, etc.

Mentalism, as I mentioned previously, is a "cousin' to proper stage magic and not a direct sort of relation; when folks come to see a magician work, they already know it's tricks for fun's sake. When then come to see a Mentalist however, they are caused to suspend their disbelief and make an investment of belief. This is accomplished by way of suggestion; conditioning tactics taken by the performer that slowly reenforces the idea that "more" is afoot than mere trickery. But there is another irony in play...
Much of Mentalism is NOT a deception as much as it is manipulation of known influences such as how the mind processes information, demographics, ideomotor syndrome, etc.

If you were to lay an outline on how to cultivate one's Mental Abilities as a psychic or mystic, side by side with an outline about developing your skills for being a solid mentalist, you will find that about 90% of it is all the same thing; especially the part about training your mind to work with you on higher levels of function, including memory skills and being more aware of one's environment. Sadly, these are aspects of Mentalism few have woken up to realize in the past decade or so the current trend has been around, they are more interested in learning "tricks" rather than the "tricks of the trade", so to speak.

Now, you say that you're "read" books on mentalism but I'd like to challenge you on that thought; go back and sit with say, Corinda and work only with what's in it for the next six months or so. See for yourself what you missed and more importantly, what you nearly missed out on. Mentalists tend to be perpetual students by nature, so try to adopt that position as you dive into this arena and see if that helps you or not when it comes to understanding it all. Then again, if you're only interested in tricks and how to gain cheap kudos... just keep doing what you've been doing.
 
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