Magic vs. Religion

Justin.Morris

Elite Member
Aug 31, 2007
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888
Canada
www.morrismagic.ca
It's thing like this...
Instead of everyone explaining to each other the Bible and God and all this other stuff, and using Bible verses WAYYYY out of context just to promote a point, like a pastor, ...

...that are the reason that this...

...people have been trying to actually discuss and explore this topic with respect...this conversation should really stick to the original poster's main concern...let's focus on today and the modern effect that religious thinking people have on magic and vice versa.

...can't happen here.

There have been far more productive thread on this topic that have been closed for far less insults than this. A search on the topic should result in more fruitful reading than these last 4 pages.
 

Justin.Morris

Elite Member
Aug 31, 2007
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888
Canada
www.morrismagic.ca
How am I insulting anyone? I'm being straightforward.

Does being straightforward mean that it makes your statements true, or not insulting? I don't change, manipulate, or remove the context from verses to make my points in a sermon. Your statement says I do. My point is that little sharp comments passive aggressively dropped in (and not just you), make discussions like this unfruitful. It would be different if the comments throughout this thread were contributing to the discussion. T11 is a place I like to come for discussion, not to be insulted (albeit indirectly), or watch others get insulted.
 
William, my point was with you specifically referring to the Christian god, who is a character in literature. To say that he doesn't like something is an opinion because no one can "know" the thoughts of a character unless he or she reveals them. So, my point is, your criticisms were not accurate of god, but were accurate of people who claim to follow him.

|| sean ||

Sean if we could have considerable proof of the existence of let alone the thoughts and opinions of the Christian god then it would mean a lot more than just settling a point you or I am trying to make.

However until such a time comes that the big guy upstairs speaks for themselves then the only source material we have to go on to be the guide of his will is the Bible. My criticisms ARE accurate to the Christian doctrine, which is based on the Bible, the accepted source of guidance and foundation to which modern Christianity is built upon.

Fact: Christian faith denounces magick as practiced by witches, and warlocks. Therefore the Christian faith ALSO denounces those who practice witchcraft and "real" magick.

Fact: The Christian god does not like magick(witchcraft) or those who practice it, as evidence found in the Christian Bible.

Fact: Many people have paid the price with their lives over the years for engaging or being accused of engaging in pegan or magical practices.

Fact: The Christian faith, the church, and its people have been responsible for spilling many a persons blood who have been accused of practicing witchcraft over the years.

Sean, to try and call me out as a lier on any of the above, which have been my points of conversation since I entered into this thread is to deny truth, and deny history. It's as absurd as saying the Holocaust didn't happen, nor did man actually land on the Moon.
 
Sep 3, 2007
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Mr. Morris, I was in no way referring to you. I haven't read through any of your posts in this thread. I was speaking generally, and not in an insulting way. You are getting defensive for no reason, as I was using the word pastor not in a cynical way, but to illustrate. I'm glad you don't change, manipulate, or remove context from verses to make a sermon. I definitely didn't point my finger at you and say you did. CHILL. My statement said exactly what it said. Sharp comments? Passive aggressively dropped in? How are you commenting on the intention behind my written words? Did you hear me say them? This is a perspective problem on your part as you clearly have not considered interpreting my statements in other ways. I may make straightforward, blunt, and even short comments, but I make them respectfully. I'm trying not to point people out and let them be the bullseye of my words, which is why I am making generalized comments in order to voice my opinion on this whole situation. THOSE people were being incredible insulting, whether they were joking or not.

In my line of work, the perceptions of religion and religious subjects are a BIG deal. I don't go to any of your shows and publicly call you a fake. I don't post comments saying that what others believe is stupid. So when we have a big melting pot of people saying whatever, interpeting what they heard from someone else or read in some book, and all the while being careless with their appraoch to the touchy subject, I take notice, and I chose to voice my opinion.

And actually, my factual statements ARE true. I went to college and studied for a degree to be able to say that.

It is not beneficial to create a large boiling pot of religion on an internet forum where everyone just throws in whatever they want. This is a MAGIC forum. I was addresing posts that forgot that and decided to make this a religious debate forum. The original poster was identifying a religious issue with magic. So let's stay focused on MAGIC.

Let me say that again just in case anyone else wants to complain about anything I've said. Focus on magic.

|| sean ||
 
Sep 3, 2007
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Sean if we could have considerable proof of the existence of let alone the thoughts and opinions of the Christian god then it would mean a lot more than just settling a point you or I am trying to make.

However until such a time comes that the big guy upstairs speaks for themselves then the only source material we have to go on to be the guide of his will is the Bible. My criticisms ARE accurate to the Christian doctrine, which is based on the Bible, the accepted source of guidance and foundation to which modern Christianity is built upon.

Fact: Christian faith denounces magick as practiced by witches, and warlocks. Therefore the Christian faith ALSO denounces those who practice witchcraft and "real" magick.

Fact: The Christian god does not like magick(witchcraft) or those who practice it, as evidence found in the Christian Bible.

Fact: Many people have paid the price with their lives over the years for engaging or being accused of engaging in pegan or magical practices.

Fact: The Christian faith, the church, and its people have been responsible for spilling many a persons blood who have been accused of practicing witchcraft over the years.

Sean, to try and call me out as a lier on any of the above, which have been my points of conversation since I entered into this thread is to deny truth, and deny history. It's as absurd as saying the Holocaust didn't happen, nor did man actually land on the Moon.

Ever heard of Joseph Smith? He founded Mormonism. Mormonism wholeheartedly claims to be affiliated with biblical Christianity, but upon examination, it is not. The authors of the original bible were not Christian, they were mostly Jewish, which is a different religion altgether.

When the King James Version of the bible came out, it became widely accepted, and interpreted by numerous people. Because of this, and the fact that the KJV is riddled with countless errors, major errors, Christianity changed drastically from the original idea. Thus, simple logic shows us that the parts that make up the whole do not match the original parts, and thus, it cannot be the same.

Now, while my comment to you was based on literary-nuance, I would agree that the Bible is a solid canon, and the major source by which we can understand this particular religion and idea. However, the Bible was written in vastly different languages, especially Hebrew. Some words aren't even able to be translated because the language is so dead. So until one reads and comprehends the original text, and attempts to understand the many mysterious within the language it was originally written in, we are not talking about original Christianity. We're talking about something completely different. And I think we are talking about two completely different things as well, which is where the confusion is coming from. To address your facts:

1) The will of God is in the Bible, but not always fully revealed. Many times, "will" is confused with "guidance and rules."
2) You are confusing "faith" with "people."
3) I don't believe in the contemporary idea of "magick," so I don't really see it as relevant. The ancient cultures had a different concept of what magick was than today's concept. Until we understand exactly what those ancient cultures were talking about, it's not really productive to make assumptions on how the religion appraoches it. Perhaps the modern day Christian church utilizes biblical manuscripts to take that position, in which case a distinction must be made.
4) The people that have died by the hand of the Crusades, and the Inquisition were no the victim of Christianity. America is not the victim of Islam. These people are victims of PEOPLE with very foriegn and inhumane ideas i which they based on religion. Religion, like politics, is only a channel or medium by which ideas are communicated. People initiate it.

I never called you a liar. To deny them is not to deny truth OR history as your terminalogy, wording, and definitions or the main topics are incorrect. I have pointed out these incorrections. They are not opinions. They are academically supported and logical.

The Holocaust totally happened. However, I do think the Lunar landing video is fake. I think we definitely went to the moon, but the video just doesn't seem real to me. :]

|| sean ||
 

Justin.Morris

Elite Member
Aug 31, 2007
2,793
888
Canada
www.morrismagic.ca
Sean , I understand that you were not directing that statement at me. And I meant the tone of this thread is riddled with unhelpful comments. The reason I found the pastor comment insulting is because I am a pastor and you spoke poorly of pastors in general terms. Just because it wasn`t directed at an individual doesn`t mean it`s not insulting (for instance general racist statements will insult people, even if the statements are not directed to them). Sorry that you were the one I quoted, as I could have quoted many others, but your comment struck a cord, and I don`t feel that was unreasonable.
 
Sep 3, 2007
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Hey guys, it's been a while since I've posted here, I wanted to throw out a topic for discussion that I've come across lately.

A while back I was in a youth group meeting and the topic of the night was Exodus 20:3; Do not have any other Gods before me, one of the 10 commandments. Some people might not realize it right away, but this is the commandment that causes many people to protest things such as Harry Potter, or similar sorcery based movies/books. It is believed that this "Sorcery" is the same thing as believing in another God, therefore, watching and supporting something like that is essentially blasphemy.

Now, I am technically Catholic, but I do not necessarily believe everything that Catholics believe. The people around me knew that I performed magic on a regular basis, so I thought I would bring that up as a means to further the discussion. After a few harmless arguments, I found out that they had assumed that I had never actually tried to convince anyone that what I was doing was actually magic, and that it would be going against my religion if I were to ever perform magic without clarifying that what I am doing is not in fact magic, and that there is some trick behind how I do what I do. I will agree with them to a point and say that it is very rare that someone fully believes that I have magical powers, but if everything I did was approached with the idea that there is just a trick behind everything I do, it would not have the same effect.

Through my experiences the best reactions from people come when they start questioning reality, where what just happened is so impossible that they do not necessarily assume magical powers, but the wonder and awe that they have is so great that it goes far beyond the idea of "just a trick."

So what's my point here? My point is not to call out the ideas and beliefs of different people and decide who's right and who's wrong, but to bring up that idea of how you approach the magic that you do for people. I know people here range from all different beliefs and religions, including atheists. This applies to you too though, because despite what the magician may believe, there are a ton of people out there that believe the idea of magic and wizardry is wrong and a sin to support. If you knew the person you were performing for had this belief, would you approach your magic differently? Probably, because someone like this is likely to have a better time if you weren't trying to get them to question reality, because someone like that will just never do that. Then what if you didn't know, and you end up offending someone because they don't appreciate the idea of real magic because it goes against their religion. However, this person could also be the type of person who, if you perform correctly for, would have an incredibly memorably moment as he or she starts questioning reality based on what you just did.

Thoughts, Ideas, I'd like to hear what some of you guys think or have come across with this matter :)

-Kevin

After all of that, Kevin, I've had time to think on what you said. I really dig it man. I think you bring up a REALLY significant point. We all should really be cautious in our approach to our audience or potential audience, especially when it comes to the subject matter. I've had to deal with countless situations where people have accused me of doing "black magic" and felt very wrong about it, to the point that it affected my relationship with them as a person.

It's hard, but looking back on it, it is partly my fault. I was not considering them entirely. I wasn't empathizing with them, and instead, I was so focused on doing the most absoltuely sick awesome illusions and stunts that it was too much at times. I mean, I did Saw at my church before during an increidbly innappropriate time, and while it got a good reaction, it created a REALLY awkward aftertaste in the social setting.

Another example comes to mind when I used to do a dangerously real roullette routine. By dangerously real, I mean I've guessed in the dark 3 times with a smash and stab nail routine. And I've messed it up an additional time, but miraculously with no injury, just a graze. I was stupid. At a middle school one time, some poor kid vomited during the smashing part. At the time, I didn't understand and thought it was just a unique reaction becaue of how good it was. Everyone else liked it.

But in reality, I was doing something literally stupid and incredibly violent. It wasn't the place or time.

My friend Brock Gill gave some good advice once when I was considering another dangerous effect involving eating razor blades as a main piece in my stage show. he said to save it for the right crowd, not your stage show. Razor blades and simply introducing the idea of cutting or being cut can trigger a very bad reaction from a cutter if they are in the audience, it had happened to him a few times before.

I don't think it can be emphasized enough how big of a deal empathy is in magic and performance.

|| sean ||
 
Sep 3, 2007
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Sean , I understand that you were not directing that statement at me. And I meant the tone of this thread is riddled with unhelpful comments. The reason I found the pastor comment insulting is because I am a pastor and you spoke poorly of pastors in general terms. Just because it wasn`t directed at an individual doesn`t mean it`s not insulting (for instance general racist statements will insult people, even if the statements are not directed to them). Sorry that you were the one I quoted, as I could have quoted many others, but your comment struck a cord, and I don`t feel that was unreasonable.

I'm sorry if you were offended. The comment I made is being taken out of context. It is not a negative or condescending comment. It is illustrative. It is a common practice for many pastors to interpret texts and make a point. That's all I was saying.
 
Sep 30, 2008
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After all of that, Kevin, I've had time to think on what you said. I really dig it man. I think you bring up a REALLY significant point. We all should really be cautious in our approach to our audience or potential audience, especially when it comes to the subject matter. I've had to deal with countless situations where people have accused me of doing "black magic" and felt very wrong about it, to the point that it affected my relationship with them as a person.

It's hard, but looking back on it, it is partly my fault. I was not considering them entirely. I wasn't empathizing with them, and instead, I was so focused on doing the most absoltuely sick awesome illusions and stunts that it was too much at times. I mean, I did Saw at my church before during an increidbly innappropriate time, and while it got a good reaction, it created a REALLY awkward aftertaste in the social setting.

Another example comes to mind when I used to do a dangerously real roullette routine. By dangerously real, I mean I've guessed in the dark 3 times with a smash and stab nail routine. And I've messed it up an additional time, but miraculously with no injury, just a graze. I was stupid. At a middle school one time, some poor kid vomited during the smashing part. At the time, I didn't understand and thought it was just a unique reaction becaue of how good it was. Everyone else liked it.

Another example of an effect like that is something like Stigmata, and control. Now I've never actually performed Control for real, but I have had an experience where one person just covered their mouth and walk away after the trick was over. It's, in a sense, too good of a reaction.

Chris Angel is another perfect example of this type of thing. You see his videos of him walking on water, being impaled, and splitting a woman in half, with no cover. I'm positive that these type of things offend a good amount of people.

A good non-religious idea is things like pulling strings out of your stomach or eye, having coins come out of your skin. While some see it as absolutely mind blowing, pay attention to the people who look at that and saw "Aww dude..." cover their eyes and walk away.
 
Dec 18, 2007
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William, my point was with you specifically referring to the Christian god, who is a character in literature. To say that he doesn't like something is an opinion because no one can "know" the thoughts of a character unless he or she reveals them.

This is the classic assinine attitude of a cynic that creates major problems in society and hurts the very essence of skeptical claim; when you insult a person's beliefs you instantly put a wall up between you and them as well as encouraging them to dig their heels in, in defiance to what you might THINK you know.

So, my point is, your criticisms were not accurate of god, but were accurate of people who claim to follow him.

Hence the old saying, "Jesus Save Me... from your followers!"

However, it's pointless to discuss the Bible, the cultures of ancient people in the Bible, and the motives and reasons behind characters or events in the Bible if you don't have academic credibility, otherwise, it becomes Sunday School, or what mainstream culture knows as "church." It's opinionated, and very much like gossip in the sense that a bunch of false information gets spread around as truth.

Again, you are insulting people's beliefs and view by imposing your own phobias and resentments towards religion/the church. While there are some truths in what you say, you cannot deny the wisdom set within these or the parables of sages in other lands, such as the material in the Koran, Bahbva Gita, etc. WISDOM is Wisdom, end of story, it is an immutable truth and you will find the same (almost word for word) wisdom tales in most all world cultures along side axioms of similar vein like the Golden Rule and certain aspects of morality i.e. thou shalt not kill, steal, betray those you've sworn loyalty to (a.k.a. adultry), or long for what others have that you do not... it's a very Buddhist line of thought that can prove quite freeing and empowering when understood and applied.

The Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, which are vastly different languages than English. The Hebrew vocabulary is 1% of the English vocabulary, for instance.

Say what? Hebrew simply has a more universal sense of language because the alphabet alone can imply numerous things, unlike English. On top of that I'm certain that the Chinese and other more intricate languages with vast vocabularies that allow more exacting inference, make English look rather elementary and even crude.


Many biblical authors were incredibly smart in that the structure of the writing is intentional and is meant to communicate specific ideas and concepts, which at times, may not fall in line with the actual words being written. It takes a lot of time, patience, and studying to decipher this stuff and even then you end up with more questions.

Quite true and even more than you'd imagine; much of the old testament in particular, has (in its original format) an amazing collection of esoteric significance... not to get into theories akin to the popular Bible Code thinking, but in the original language and format of composition the Talmud (first 5 books of the Old Testament) is deliberatly encoded with layer upon layer of understanding based on how deep into the priesthood one is positioned... level of intitiation. This is quite common with most ancient traditions but the Hebrew people in particular had a deep desire to make it difficult for those not "of the line" to be able to discern the deeper truths about their beliefs and traditions. A great example of this can be found in the Genesis Creation tales which merely echo far older creation lore popular to the age and region; the original 7-Days of creation being credited to Lord Shiva several thousand years prior to the existend of the Hibru people... at least according ot the historic record vs. biblical perspective.

So with that said, this conversation should really stick to the original poster's main concern as I understand it. Instead of everyone explaining to each other the Bible and God and all this other stuff, and using Bible verses WAYYYY out of context just to promote a point, like a pastor, let's focus on today and the modern effect that religious thinking people have on magic and vice versa.

I see and agree with your point here, this thread has kind of gone askew but I think that reveals people's passion on things and secondly, this is something not oft times DISCUSSED (vs. argued).

I would suggest that our young person that started this thread do a search for the Christian Magician's Association. I know their numbers have dwendled over the years but they do exist. Too, even with as much as I loathe the forum, check out the bible thumper section at the Magic Cafe, I'm certain you'll find some folks there that could prove of even greater, item specific, assistance.

|| sean ||[/QUOTE]
 
Sep 30, 2008
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I would suggest that our young person that started this thread do a search for the Christian Magician's Association. I know their numbers have dwendled over the years but they do exist. Too, even with as much as I loathe the forum, check out the bible thumper section at the Magic Cafe, I'm certain you'll find some folks there that could prove of even greater, item specific, assistance.

|| sean ||
[/QUOTE]

Actually one of the reasons I started this thread here is because I wanted people from the magic community to give input, since talking about it anymore with the Christian society would be beating a dead horse. Also, I simply enjoy picking people's brains for information.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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Religion is a disease to this earth. Anybody who disagrees with this should be executed in great numbers without question.

Oh wait, im starting to sound like a christian...gotta watch that
 
Sep 30, 2008
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Religion is a disease to this earth. Anybody who disagrees with this should be executed in great numbers without question.

Oh wait, im starting to sound like a christian...gotta watch that

That's really just not a necessary comment. It has nothing to do with the discussion and was a pathetic attempt to sound funny to other atheists.
 
Dec 18, 2007
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That's really just not a necessary comment. It has nothing to do with the discussion and was a pathetic attempt to sound funny to other atheists.

Actually, it don't necessarily need be directed to atheists, there are many folks who simply detest Christians because of the wonderfully bloody and inhumane history they gave the world and the perpetuation of LIES they insist on recycling with every group, race, or whatever they decide to attack. If you look at the church propaganda used around witchcraft you will find some of the very same claims made there as they made towards communists, fascists, blacks, jews, Native Americans (basically, anthing not white when you get right down to it) and of course any independent female or gay person willing to step out of a closet (it's best to supress them and force them to meet in secret and become predators, after all).

The problem with religion is most of them want an "all or nothing" circumstance; they want to use their scriptures as a suppository on everyone and enforce their will in a military styled manner... just to prove to everyone that they are the only true way
 
Sep 3, 2007
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Religion is a disease to this earth. Anybody who disagrees with this should be executed in great numbers without question.

Oh wait, im starting to sound like a christian...gotta watch that

THIS IS MY POINT. ^

Craig, it is obvious that you are greatly misunderstood regarding the posts between myself an RikAllen and William. William seems nice and fun and Rik is a sensible guy and we exchanged PM's, and squared it away, no big deal. Not something to ruin the brotherhood over. But that was between Rik, and myself, and Draven, and now you have jumped in and it is clear to me that you didn't fully digest the discussion.

You've taken the literary criticism out of context. I'm not sure of the relevance of your quote usage. I'm not insulting anyone's beliefs, I'm pointing out the actions and practices. Big difference. Furthermore, phobias and resentments?

Craig, you're putting words in my mouth. You're making false character assumptions. Communicate more appropriately please.

Regarding the language issue: Craig, I've studied Spanish, Japanese, Koine Greek, and currently Ancient Hebrew. I wasn't using figurative language. The ancient Hebrew vocabulary is only roughly 1% in size of the English vocabulary. And besides that, nothing I said combated any of the points you made about language. Again, it is clear you have not fully understood the topic that you have jumped in on.

I think it's important that I point something out right now. My posts have utilized many facts, and are based on factual knowledge. Your post is riddled with opinions. Many of them. Here is an example:

"Quite true and even more than you'd imagine; much of the old testament in particular, has (in its original format) an amazing collection of esoteric significance" -- In your opinion.

"not to get into theories akin to the popular Bible Code thinking, but in the original language and format of composition the Talmud (first 5 books of the Old Testament) is deliberatly encoded with layer upon layer of understanding based on how deep into the priesthood one is positioned... level of intitiation. This is quite common with most ancient traditions but the Hebrew people in particular had a deep desire to make it difficult for those not "of the line" to be able to discern the deeper truths about their beliefs and traditions. A great example of this can be found in the Genesis Creation tales which merely echo far older creation lore popular to the age and region; the original 7-Days of creation being credited to Lord Shiva several thousand years prior to the existend of the Hibru people... at least according ot the historic record vs. biblical perspective. " -- Maybe, but this is theoretical. And again, you've attempted to make factual statements in an opinionated manner.

And "Bible-Thumper?" They're referred to as PEOPLE.

Simply call it the religious section.

I am so over this. I'm passionate about people. I study and apply biblical aspects in my everyday life. Kevin, I'm sorry that your thread got hijacked, partially by me, and has turned into such a mess. I think it's a mess, at least. Whoever wants it can have the last word, and I don't care to be PM'ed. I'm going to go read the book over which I have two papers due by Wednesday over the prophetic engineering of ideas in ancient Hebrew culture, because I am so incredibly cool.

Before I get verbally stabbed and mugged, I don't actually think I'm incredibly cool. That was a joke. I'm only semi-incredibly cool.

|| sean ||
 
THIS IS MY POINT. ^

Craig, it is obvious that you are greatly misunderstood regarding the posts between myself an RikAllen and William. William seems nice and fun and Rik is a sensible guy and we exchanged PM's, and squared it away, no big deal. Not something to ruin the brotherhood over. But that was between Rik, and myself, and Draven, and now you have jumped in and it is clear to me that you didn't fully digest the discussion.

You've taken the literary criticism out of context. I'm not sure of the relevance of your quote usage. I'm not insulting anyone's beliefs, I'm pointing out the actions and practices. Big difference. Furthermore, phobias and resentments?

Craig, you're putting words in my mouth. You're making false character assumptions. Communicate more appropriately please.

Regarding the language issue: Craig, I've studied Spanish, Japanese, Koine Greek, and currently Ancient Hebrew. I wasn't using figurative language. The ancient Hebrew vocabulary is only roughly 1% in size of the English vocabulary. And besides that, nothing I said combated any of the points you made about language. Again, it is clear you have not fully understood the topic that you have jumped in on.

I think it's important that I point something out right now. My posts have utilized many facts, and are based on factual knowledge. Your post is riddled with opinions. Many of them. Here is an example:

"Quite true and even more than you'd imagine; much of the old testament in particular, has (in its original format) an amazing collection of esoteric significance" -- In your opinion.

"not to get into theories akin to the popular Bible Code thinking, but in the original language and format of composition the Talmud (first 5 books of the Old Testament) is deliberatly encoded with layer upon layer of understanding based on how deep into the priesthood one is positioned... level of intitiation. This is quite common with most ancient traditions but the Hebrew people in particular had a deep desire to make it difficult for those not "of the line" to be able to discern the deeper truths about their beliefs and traditions. A great example of this can be found in the Genesis Creation tales which merely echo far older creation lore popular to the age and region; the original 7-Days of creation being credited to Lord Shiva several thousand years prior to the existend of the Hibru people... at least according ot the historic record vs. biblical perspective. " -- Maybe, but this is theoretical. And again, you've attempted to make factual statements in an opinionated manner.

And "Bible-Thumper?" They're referred to as PEOPLE.

Simply call it the religious section.

I am so over this. I'm passionate about people. I study and apply biblical aspects in my everyday life. Kevin, I'm sorry that your thread got hijacked, partially by me, and has turned into such a mess. I think it's a mess, at least. Whoever wants it can have the last word, and I don't care to be PM'ed. I'm going to go read the book over which I have two papers due by Wednesday over the prophetic engineering of ideas in ancient Hebrew culture, because I am so incredibly cool.

Before I get verbally stabbed and mugged, I don't actually think I'm incredibly cool. That was a joke. I'm only semi-incredibly cool.

|| sean ||

Someone needs some sugar. *sets out a platter of cookies and milk* Plus Craig wasn't the one who posted that trolling post. Just in case you missed it. Also, bible-thumpers is not a term to get razzled on, there are people who have earned the name, Look at the, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ1G0K46qLk , Westboro Baptist Church. I also call the shock animal rights activists/environmentalists on school campuses idiots, and morons. Especially, when they use good paper to print out their flyers, which incidentally end up in the trash can filling land fills, or get littered and pollute the environment.
 
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Dec 18, 2007
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Tempest... my comments came as the result of someone else pointing finger at you and inferring insult and further more, the points I made about the esoteric side of the Old Testament isn't "my opinion" it's a matter of fact... I actually have a rather deep background in theology so I know a bit as to what I'm speaking.

When it comes to my "Bible Thumper" inference it is as has been said by nexusmagic... such critters exist and most of them are jerks. If you don't believe me just go to San Francisco or West Hollywood or most any other place where a Gay Pride Parade is happening or Pagan festival and see for yourself the number of bible welding BIGOTS stand outside the area trying to confront and create problems... these are typically people that thump the bible vs. reading it and most especially not living it (god forbid!)

Now if I interrupted a "Private" conversation or bantering amongst "friends" ... well, I don't see how it can be seen as "private" on a forum for starters, but further more, when you have someone that scans through an excessively long thread, they only pick up on bits and pieces, making it rather difficult to catch on to such happenstance... it simply didn't read such... but I have the funny feeling I'm one of the older guys on this forum and so, there is a bit of a language barrier here and there.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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I didn't bother to read any posts here, so I am sorry if I say something that has already been said. As i was skimming through, i saw someone post "dont take versus literally, thats the job for pastors" or something of that sort

The problem is people DO take these things literally. Has anyone studied islam? Or any religion for that matter. Religion limits so many parts of our lives.

I am not an athiest, i am an anti-theist. The difference being that anti-theists believe that even if it were true that god exists and there is life after death, that it is a horribly idea. Living in a supreme dictatorship, you have no say in anything, your life is planned out for you. I cannot think of anything that deflates myself more than those thoughts.

Religion will never go away, it will always be a crutch in our progress as a species.
My main gripe is that I consider religion child abuse. Thoughts and ideas are drilled into childrens heads before they are old enough to have their own thoughts and ideas (all religions, dictatorships prey on children because they are unable to dismiss any claims)

This is very disturbing in north america (primarly united states) where the radicals want creationism to be taught side by side with evolution in schools, which is totally absurd considering the amazing amount of evidence that has been observed over the last 200 years, compared to 0 evidence which supports creationism.
 
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