Combining Mentalism and Sleight Of Hand...

Jan 23, 2011
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it is not fair to call magic that. i know that many people do just that but there was a time when magic wasnt

I think he was more getting that magic is typically approached with levity (certain acts excluded) and people say that was clever while after a good mentalism preformance the audience wonders whether the preformer can truly read minds. I recently watched Bob cassidy preform and saw a young woman approach him afterwards asking if he could read her palm and asking him whether he could pick up anyones thoughts.
(At the moment I am a magician not a mentalist just to clarify that Im not simply defending what I do just stating an oppinion)

Don Juan
 

Luis Vega

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Mar 19, 2008
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I think he was more getting that magic is typically approached with levity (certain acts excluded) and people say that was clever while after a good mentalism preformance the audience wonders whether the preformer can truly read minds. I recently watched Bob cassidy preform and saw a young woman approach him afterwards asking if he could read her palm and asking him whether he could pick up anyones thoughts.
(At the moment I am a magician not a mentalist just to clarify that Im not simply defending what I do just stating an oppinion)

Don Juan

Oh man!! I wish I could see Bob Cassidy perform!!

Anyway...after all the replies..I decided to go on with this, I know it´s not advisable to combine both...but I want to try it out in a controled environment, since I started to do magic and also mentalism I always wanted to try them together sometime...

don´t get me wrong I am indeed going to take all the advice given and since I don´t have a date or time for a show I can take my time to actually plan a good show...

@Craig Browning.

Thanks for all the advice...I´ll make sure to keep it in my mind this months to come...
 
Jan 23, 2011
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Cassidy has a lot to say about using magic with mentalism that I found incredibly interesting. The main point being that a lot the great mentalists we read about used it to great effect. While he was not really advocating either stance he presented clear do's and donts about how to do this well if you plan to do it. Supposedly Dunninger opened his act with some amazing card magic but what people remembered was his mind reading. Kreskins TV show was constantly opened with a magic effect. I don't want to quote anymore of his matieral but if you have access to it I highly recomend you take a look it was absolutly fascinating.
 
Jun 2, 2010
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rongwrong said:
Maybe you could use Dresscode for the clothes change.

praetoritevong said:
Please don't. Worst idea of 2011 thus far.

I agree.

Seriously, I don't own Dresscode, never will, but always thought it looked quite good as an effect, but I'm just sick to death of the T11 fanboys suggesting nothing but the latest T11 tricks for every situation.

People need to realise T11 didn't invent magic... geez...

Matt

Okay, I don't own Dresscode and probably never will either. I'm pretty new to magic, haven't got much experience of performing and don't know anything about said effect other than the hype. But the guy was talking about transitioning between two separate parts of an act with some kind of clothing change and so I suggested an apparently popular trick where... wait for it... your clothing changes. Well, excuse me for putting two and two together and coming up with five.

I may be a lot of things sir, but a Theory 11 fanboy is not one of them. I'm perfectly well aware of the fact that magic wasn't invented in the last few years by T11 but thanks for taking the time to patronise me.
 
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Mar 6, 2008
1,483
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A Land Down Under
One thing that you need to realize is prae is very serious about mentalism. His act is just that it is a complete act, a story Luis is in a similar boat he wanted to separate the demonstrations. A clothing change would be perfect for that especially with an intermission, giving mentalism the space it it needs. Presenting mentalism is a whole other experience and requires you to perform everything in a different light.
 
Dec 7, 2008
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UK, Birmingham
EXSQUEEZE ME!?

Firstly, I must ask that you show me when, where and how (other than a sweat lodge or shamanic ritual). My mentor was Kirk Kirkham, a man that owned most of the equipment featured in the Thurston, Dante, Blackstone and a few other shows of the Golden Era as well as before and since. I can assure you that most of the hand-props and routines were designed for livity as well as mystery -- FUN!

Yes, there were & are acts that were more "artsy" I can think of a few dozen that are working right now, but even they tend to have bits in them that force folks to chuckle. Too, such acts are RARELY the only style that performer will work from, such acts simply aren't in high commercial demand even though producers of Revue shows love them as a "filler" piece. . . which, by the way, is the only position 95% of all magic acts tend to work when it comes to the Vegas-like environment. Headline shows rarely happen and most are produced by the performer's own production company, what's called a "4-Wall". I can assure you when you're putting up the cash to put such shows together, you will make certain your show is theatrically stimulating but certainly not filled with mystical dreams. . . not even a successful Mentalism show does that. Even Larry Becker jokes about how most of his material is "Mental Magic" rather than Mentalism. And why not? It's the more commercial way to go.

I've been doing magic since 1964 and doing shows since 1966 so I have a funny suspicion that I know a little bit about what's been done and how its pulled together, don't you think?

the time someone does magic does prove anything, i know people who have been in bands from before i was born and they still do it wrong. time does not prove how 'qualified' what you do and how you think does. im not saying ur not good at what you do. i believe you are and that you have quite a few things to teach me.


magic is about the moment, the emotion. the memory left behind. not the tricks that cause it. i have done maigic with no slights or tricks. it is still magic. in the past, not to long before the 60's magic was a gentlemen's art. not a clown. magician's did not do kids shows. never knew how to do ballon animals. it was not about getting the biggest, lousest reaction. silly jokes that dont deem repect. the great magicians of our time did not do it for the tricks and sillyness. one of my fav performances is (the guy's name has lost me) where he tries to do a magic trick with 4 cards but this one card keeps popping up. he keeps taking the card away to return. it could of been a silly trick, away to get a cheep laugh but he preformed it so prefectly. it was really like he was messing up his trick and he got more than a cheep laugh.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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magic is about the moment, the emotion. the memory left behind. not the tricks that cause it. i have done maigic with no slights or tricks. it is still magic.

What Hallmark greeting card did you steal that from?

in the past, not to long before the 60's magic was a gentlemen's art. not a clown. magician's did not do kids shows. never knew how to do ballon animals. it was not about getting the biggest, lousest reaction. silly jokes that dont deem repect. the great magicians of our time did not do it for the tricks and sillyness.

Oh, this should be good. Cite your sources. All of them. I want to see if you actually got this info from somewhere or if you're just making it up. Guess which one I'm leaning on.
 
Feb 7, 2011
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One trick came to mind when i though 'just audience management'. But no it still has a trick to it. Any chance of an example?
 
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Dec 18, 2007
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Northampton, MA - USA
Thats more interesting than the entire thread. What magic is done with no sleights or tricks?

Proper Storytelling is one of the best examples that come to mind. . . maybe some day those that are actors playing the part of a magician will realize that and start focusing on it rather than a new card slight?

More can be done through the command of language and rudimentary psychology to create the air of enchantment than 99% of the trickery magic enthusiasts hold in such high esteem.
 
Feb 7, 2011
362
1
Proper Storytelling is one of the best examples that come to mind. . . maybe some day those that are actors playing the part of a magician will realize that and start focusing on it rather than a new card slight?

More can be done through the command of language and rudimentary psychology to create the air of enchantment than 99% of the trickery magic enthusiasts hold in such high esteem.

But surely there is always a trick, the performer always knows something the spectator doesn't, always one step ahead, that makes it a trick. Even if it's the least important part of the effect, it has to be there.
 
Dec 7, 2008
106
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UK, Birmingham
There are actually several tricks that accomplish this. Where the only thing that you need is audience management.
At least some people are open to what I say without just thinking I’m lying.
The trick is that there is no trick. If u say you’re a magician or mentalist than they expect one. Effect or trick whatever. Think about cold reading. You are just talking to them and they tell u the info you are meant to say to them. They believe you read their mind etc

What Hallmark greeting card did you steal that from?


Oh, this should be good. Cite your sources. All of them. I want to see if you actually got this info from somewhere or if you're just making it up. Guess which one I'm leaning on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMjxkHM-hQM
This is the one guy I was on about for the first

One of the main things I live by is the truth. I don’t make things up. (Well maybe not while I’m performing, but the audience can always talk to me after the show. you don’t really call an actor a liar really)
Maybe I’m wrong, I’ve not got the best memory (especially with names) but I would not say something is I was not sure. If I knew it would cause me not to be trusted then I would have not said. Magicians are not jugglers or clowns, we are more than that (forget the magic is art stuff) it is because we perform. (Yeah u can say clowns perform but I don’t think I need to explain the different between a clown and a magician)
This traveling magician (again I do not remember his name, if I find which book I got it from I will post it (therefore I do not expect u to believe me)) doing shows, not street acts. So he would have to drum interest. He set up a trick in a snooker hall where he made a ball fly and broke the glass and he got asked to pay to get it repaired. He collected and covered the glass and u get the rest. (glass as in window not drinking glass) not this guy did all this before I was born so u know with magic and anything things get hyped up as time passes. If I’m wrong don’t hate me. [/QUOTE]

What Hallmark greeting card did you steal that from?

Now with what you said here I say this. To have a good play you need good actors, stage direction etc. you need more than a perfectly scripted play. No matter how great the play should be you need props, sound actors to send the messages, emotions across.
To make a good magician u need more than a good trick. Anyone can learn sleight of hand. Yeah people learn at different rates but anyone can do one. Loads of people know one (maybe not a good one) loads of people know the magician choice but it takes a good magician or mentalist to be undetected with it. I had a spec show me a trick involving magician choice and I did it right back at him. He did not realise. You may not like how corny I sound. Maybe I should be better with words (or at least learn how to spell). All these things like crowd control and patter are meant to set an atmosphere. Atmosphere sets emotion and feel.
I would expect to know this so don’t think I’m treating you like your stupid but magic is not just about people jumping around like crazy, give the biggest reactions. Sometimes it is having silence or even rarer causing a bit of fear. Even just a nice fun enjoyable time.
Again maybe I’m wrong I’m open to wise words. My main reason on this forum is to learn (because one should never stop learning) and I expect others are on this place for that reason. So I say what I think to be true. The last thing I would want to do is give wrong advice.
 
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Oct 2, 2008
336
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UK
Jinai.deviantart.com
On regards to Mentalism and Sleight of hand, there is no real harm with using each hand in hand. However when you expose yourself to the world, those two cannot be on the Stage at the same time. Theres only space for one way, or no way. Caution now. And think it good.

Thats more interesting than the entire thread. What magic is done with no sleights or tricks?

If you are on about method, course there will always be trickery at hand. Whether large, whether small. "Method" and "Sleight" could be hand in hand. However you must know, in feel, in presentation this could be so. But like said, there are indeed things out there that is the real thing (in terms of method), therefore it wouldn't be considered trickery.

As for you, Steerpike. Glad do you see are active still around here, teaching the Young'uns around here some sense. On the subject of the Scenario which Mental-State talked about (the one with the mirror), I have found you proof which you may or may not digest:

Herrmann the Great

Alexander tells an interesting tale of an incident that took place after the performance. He was playing billiards at the saloon with the attaché of the court when he noticed the Czar was also playing there. Herrmann shot the ball with all of his strength against a plate-glass mirror that extended from the floor to the ceiling. It shattered into fifty pieces. Every person in the room was horrified, none more than Herrmann.

The Czar brushed off Herrmann’s apology and considered the destruction of the mirror trivial. He ordered the game to proceed. With the Czar’s permission, Herrmann examined the mirror to estimate the damage done. He was hoping to have it repaired.

The Czar teased him, saying if he was such a good wizard why didn’t he make the mirror whole? That was the very cue Herrmann was hoping for. He hesitated for an instant, then ordered the mirror to be covered with a cloth concealing it from view. After about ten minutes, he whisked away the cloth and the mirror was completely restored and without a flaw.

Interesting isn't it?

magic is about the moment, the emotion. the memory left behind. not the tricks that cause it. i have done maigic with no slights or tricks. it is still magic.
What Hallmark greeting card did you steal that from?

We learnt it the hard way Steerpike. Unlike you guys over there across the Pond, who are in a wealth of Magic and its History, over here in the UK things are scarce. But such scarceness is rich once found. It is too easy for you guys to take it for granted what it is you have, or that you turn a blind eye to whats rich and whats poor in quality. Unlike the maturing growing up over there who cite books, cite lines, cite quotes, imitate experiences, I can proudly say Mental-State could thump himself on the chest and tell you that the "Hallmark Greeting Card" his speech came from, is much richer than that you see everyday.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
At least some people are open to what I say without just thinking I’m lying.

It's not a lie of you believe it.

This traveling magician (again I do not remember his name, if I find which book I got it from I will post it (therefore I do not expect u to believe me)) doing shows, not street acts. So he would have to drum interest. He set up a trick in a snooker hall where he made a ball fly and broke the glass and he got asked to pay to get it repaired. He collected and covered the glass and u get the rest. (glass as in window not drinking glass) not this guy did all this before I was born so u know with magic and anything things get hyped up as time passes. If I’m wrong don’t hate me.

Herrmann the Great was a little more than 60 years ago. Try about a hundred.

But that is irrelevant. There were a lot of magicians, mentalists and escapologists during the Golden Age of magic. Notice that there are only a handful we still recognize, remember or venerate. As far as pop culture is concerned, there's only one. What happened to the hundreds of imitators?

What you are doing is the same mistake as people who say that today's music is nowhere near as good as it was in the 50's/60's/70's. In 1969, The Beatles released Abby Road and the world saw the debuts of Jimi Hendrix and Led Zeppelin. Motown was bringing soul to the masses. Elvis Presley was roaring into a stellar comeback! And the most popular song in America was... Sugar Sugar by The Archies. Let that sink in for a second. A novelty song you probably have never head in your life was a #1 hit.

To bring it a little closer to home, does anyone think of the Macarena as indicative of the music of the 90's? Or are they more inclined to reference the alternative rock scene and in particular Nirvana and Alice in Chains.

Ever since magic became commercial, there have been magicians who are also balloon artists and clowns and whatever else. We just don't remember most of them because they did nothing especially influential or innovative. If you canonize the past however by believing that the good parts were the only parts, then you kneecap yourself in the present by creating an ideal that it's utterly impossible to live up to.
 
Dec 7, 2008
106
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UK, Birmingham
as long as u dont think i have purposely made it up im happy =]

i dont see it like that. i am not trying to live up to the past. i have no problems with clowns etc but it has nothing to do with being a magician (not that i do not see why you can not do both) the first thing i will say that you have to not let great things fade away with the fads. the 'fad' magician will be know at this time and will make a lot of money. the 'artist' magician will not.
if someone tries to recreate, will end up creating pop music because that what it is. when metal started on the scene they tried to capitalise on it and it would become a format where a metal band would come out with a heavy song then a ballad. We live in a different time. they things they did will never work again. if u look at the time when mediumship was at its high. that could never happen again.
i write music, nirvana is one of my influences. Now most people would not know that because my music sounds nothing like nirvana. why would it? Im from a different time and place with different influences than the music that influences me. I know i cant recreate what was and if i tried it would be as souless as the macarena.
the point i was meant to make was that with the mirror thing he did it was more than the just the trick. it was the way he did it. the affect he had on the people around him. He thought about more having great big reactions. he wanted more than that. im not looking to be commercial, i make websites and adverts and poster for that. I know some people believe magic is an art but i know performance is. it is my art.
style and fashion.
style will always be stlyish. fashion is never always fashionable. when i look into the past i look past the fads and look for the things that can be taken and will aways will be useful for a magician because when we learn something new people sometimes forget the last things we learned. there was a street magic boom. I know i never thought of doing magic in the street until david blaine. it was amazing. i did not have to feel i was showing off to my friends or family. I would be able to entertain the public without the need for a stage. I became great at it. I could talk to a random group for 20 mins without even pulling out cards and keep them entertained. Do only 4 effect is a hour and a half. When I first went on stage i felt unable to do anything. I did not balance my skills. I got caught up into a fad. did not learn the older lessons and only the new ones for the street. Now not that ive not had stage experience before but that was not magic it was acting.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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if someone tries to recreate, will end up creating pop music because that what it is.

I'm not sure how exactly that logic flows. The Cherry Poppin' Daddies put out an album that was all swing jazz revival. Brian Setzer built an entire career on swing/rockabilly revival very successfully. I don't think either one would be labeled as pop. Everyone just calls Brian Setzer rockabilly.

when metal started on the scene they tried to capitalise on it and it would become a format where a metal band would come out with a heavy song then a ballad.

You're talking to a dyed-in-the-wool(-with-the-blood-of-dragons-and-virgins) metalhead and again I'm not sure exactly what you're saying.

We live in a different time. they things they did will never work again. if u look at the time when mediumship was at its high. that could never happen again.

Also not true. The interest in reality shows such as Ghost Hunters has created more of a market for haunted magic in the last couple of years.

i write music, nirvana is one of my influences. Now most people would not know that because my music sounds nothing like nirvana. why would it? Im from a different time and place with different influences than the music that influences me.

There's a rather stark difference between being influenced by something and ripping it off. And no, I do not buy that the difference is an arbitrary separation of time.

I don't quite understand where you're going with this. Before you seemed to be lamenting the watering down of magic from the respect it allegedly had a century ago and how we should return to that. Now you're saying we can never go back to that. Which is it?

im not looking to be commercial, i make websites and adverts and poster for that. I know some people believe magic is an art but i know performance is. it is my art.

Well good for you. But commercialism and artistic integrity are not mutually exclusive and those of us trying to make a living as performers... well some of us anyway, endeavor to understand that.
 
Dec 7, 2008
106
0
UK, Birmingham
Well good for you. But commercialism and artistic integrity are not mutually exclusive and those of us trying to make a living as performers... well some of us anyway, endeavor to understand that.

In this world you will be more successful and make more money without artist integrity. I am not saying you can not with it but there is a reason there is a phase called selling out. I am trying to make a living but my artistic integrity comes first. There is a reason why heads of magic circles' do things on the side with the magic (kids parties, balloons) because it is hard. Most artist make money when they die and most people dont understand why certain pieces of art wins awards.

There's a rather stark difference between being influenced by something and ripping it off. And no, I do not buy that the difference is an arbitrary separation of time.

I don't quite understand where you're going with this. Before you seemed to be lamenting the watering down of magic from the respect it allegedly had a century ago and how we should return to that. Now you're saying we can never go back to that. Which is it?

I was on about me being me experiencing what i have shapes what i do and make. that is why ripping off doesnt work. you do not have the same mind set as the person you are ripping off and most likely dont understand where they where coming from when they made it.

I was on about how magic used to be more than 'tricks and silliness' and maybe from where you are it is not but from where i am from most of the people on this forum could kick their asses when it comes to the mind set of performing and not technical skill. you can not go back, but the themes and ideas are forever.[/QUOTE]

Also not true. The interest in reality shows such as Ghost Hunters has created more of a market for haunted magic in the last couple of years.
in the past there was no tv. people went to theatre if they could afford it. Magicians where for the gentlemen. The rich not for the masses as it is now. At dinner parties it was practise to bring entertainment. It was very popular to bring mediums to your house to have a show in your dinning room. Now their is not such an expensive need with tv, movies, internet. I never said it would not become popular, it would never go back to the way it was. People learned from the past and with the boom of reality shows they put mediums on tv. They learned from the past and brought it to the people in a modern way. tv

You're talking to a dyed-in-the-wool(-with-the-blood-of-dragons-and-virgins) metalhead and again I'm not sure exactly what you're saying.
it was the time of the power ballad. im not from that time (im a metalhead myself, maybe not the same kind of metalhead too) so i research the beginning of metal. watched documentaries. Record companies always capitalise on the next best thing and they did that. created a format that worked to make money. I think it was at the time van hallen did the jump song. could be wrong but i did watch a documentary about this

I'm not sure how exactly that logic flows. The Cherry Poppin' Daddies put out an album that was all swing jazz revival. Brian Setzer built an entire career on swing/rockabilly revival very successfully. I don't think either one would be labeled as pop. Everyone just calls Brian Setzer rockabilly.

again influence and ripping off. choosing to a style/genre of music and a band being the next blink 182 (yeah i knew a band like this, so very horrible)
it is the same thinking as you make your own patter for a trick. nothing wrong with using someone's effect but there is in using someones patter word for word
 
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