Are Gambling Demos really "Gambling Demos" Or another type of Flourish?

[eostresh]

Another thread inspired this but it was getting off topic so I thought I would give this topic its own thread. My point is, guys who do gambling demos for entertainment generally have a very smooth elegant style that is as beautiful to watch as it is amazing to see the cards controlled in the way they do. But would you really want to look that good at a real game? Everything I have heard from real gamblers and magicians who regularly chat with real gamblers would lead me to believe that a real card sharp would not want to look that good at all. So in my opinion gambling demos are more of a sequence of tabled flourishes. To me that is fine. I don't plan on ever playing in fast company so no part of my ego forces me to delude myself into thinking that I would be a good card cheat. I merely want to be a good entertainer and give my audience what they came to see. The "image" of an expert at the card table.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Cardeyron]

You're right, a real card sharp must always hide his skill. Whereas For a magician who wants to amaze his audience, that's the exact opposite. A good example of that is Steve Forte: in his famous four kings video (which is apparently no on youtube any more, but you can find it on dailymotion), he does the up-the-ladder false cut with a cosmic speed, whereas if he did it in a real game, he would surely did it much more slowly.

Don't forget you're a magician, you don't have to hide your skill, you must show it, but not too any more, of course. On the basis people know you're a magician, they surely know you can do impossible things, and secondarily, they will say "I'll never play poker with you". But the important for you, is to amaze them, so don't hesitate to embellish your routines with fancy flourishes.

 

[JasonEngland]

There is no up-the-ladder false cut in the Forte clip you referenced. In fact, there are no false cuts in that clip at all.

Jason

 

[Joey144]

You're right, a real card sharp must always hide his skill

You shouldn't forget that, if you play cards regularly
its normal that you know how to handle cards
which means that it isn't suspicous at all if someone shuffles fast and smoothly

Of course you don't want to do a card spring and andrei jikh flourishes at the card table

he does the up-the-ladder false cut with a cosmic speed

He's just doing regular strip cuts not an up the ladder cut

 

[BnibroC69]

It's important to remember that it isn't that unusual for a casino dealer or a hired dealer to shuffle smoothly, gracefully, or quickly.

 

[Cardeyron]

There is no up-the-ladder false cut in the Forte clip you referenced. In fact, there are no false cuts in that clip at all.

Jason

Thanks, sorry for the mistake, I don't master all english equivalents for sleights' names

You shouldn't forget that, if you play cards regularly
its normal that you know how to handle cards
which means that it isn't suspicous at all if someone shuffles fast and smoothly

I know that, but there's a difference between someone who know handle cards and a real card sharp, if a card sharp showed all his skill at the card table, he would be dead, so he can't show his real skill, contrarily to the magician who can do it. That's what I wanted to say. Sorry again if I wasn't clear.

 

[saborfang17]

It's important to remember that it isn't that unusual for a casino dealer or a hired dealer to shuffle smoothly, gracefully, or quickly.

As well as in your home games. If you show up to a poker game 3 nights a week and after 5 years, you're still doing a "terrible" overhand shuffle, something's up. Just because a cheat doesn't wish to stand out at a card table, doesn't mean he can't show he knows how to handle a deck of cards.

All depends on the context, though.

 

[eostresh]

I didn't mean to imply that a real gambler looks terrible! Lol. We are not talking Lennart Green...more like Ben Earl. Smooth...but not "perfect." And with all do respect Mr. England....you don't look average at all. You look amazing! And that is my point. The guys who come to my mind as the best at gambling demos, you, Forte, Turner, Martin Nash(though I have only seen one clip of him in action) really make the demonstrations look so good that it is almost as much of a tabled flourish demonstration as a demonstration of gambling moves. So my question is, would a real card sharp exhibit such skill and grace? Hell you guys make the sail look pretty!

Here is cehoward from penguin describing his in-jog. The points he makes about that move are the points I am making about gambling in general.

Back to what you are doing. Yes, used the injog, it is the workhorse and you don't want to be too neat..neatness draws attention. Not that you got to be sloppy, but showing expertises in card handlling puts you in a suspicious window. And that my friend is what you want to avoid at all times.

I personally disagree with him on gambling demos since I think that is an area where you do want to look pretty...but maybe that is just me?

 

[Joey144]

I know that, but there's a difference between someone who know handle cards and a real card sharp, if a card sharp showed all his skill at the card table, he would be dead

I don't understand what you mean by "all his skill"
His skill is that he can deal from the bottom of the deck without looking suspicous, or that he can stack himself cards with a normal looking riffle shuffle
If you mean by "all his skill" that he can shuffle fast and elegant and that he can deal cards precisely
than again thats normal for someone who plays card regularly

 

[TheatreHead]

It depends on the company, really.

 

[saborfang17]

It depends on the company, really.

Yeah. Going to be a bit stereotypical, but if you're playing with 4 other 50 year old rednecks smoking pot, drinking booze, and talking about their pickup trucks who overhand shuffle in a sloppy manner or a bunch of 21 year olds in a college dorm who look like they've never held a deck in their life, you don't want to look graceful. If you're playing in a semi- to high-stakes game with 5 other classy guys, or even at the same place on a regular basis, it wouldn't hurt to look like you know your way around a pack of cards (in the sense that you're accustomed to handling them).

 

[eostresh]

Not so sure you are right about that. Of course I have never been in a very high end game but you seem to be dividing people into two categories. Those who suck at card handling and those who don't. Truth is that when I usually play cards I play with people who can riffle shuffle and sail cards quite competantly. Never that less they don't look as good as a croupier. People performing gambling demos generally handle the cards at least as well as a professional croupier, if not better, and that's why I think gambling demos become as much a "flourish" performance as a demonstration of actual cheating techniques. So my guess is that at a very high end game, where croupier quality dealing is expected, they do just that....hire a croupier. Then you are basically down to mucks and cold decks. After all the super rich hire people to cook their food, drive their cars, and fly their airplanes so why wouldn't they hire somebody to shuffle their cards?

 

[saborfang17]

Not so sure you are right about that. Of course I have never been in a very high end game but you seem to be dividing people into two categories. Those who suck at card handling and those who don't. Truth is that when I usually play cards I play with people who can riffle shuffle and sail cards quite competantly. Never that less they don't look as good as a croupier. People performing gambling demos generally handle the cards at least as well as a professional croupier, if not better, and that's why I think gambling demos become as much a "flourish" performance as a demonstration of actual cheating techniques. So my guess is that at a very high end game, where croupier quality dealing is expected, they do just that....hire a croupier. Then you are basically down to mucks and cold decks. After all the super rich hire people to cook their food, drive their cars, and fly their airplanes so why wouldn't they hire somebody to shuffle their cards?

If you're in a game, obviously people have different styles of handling cards, but in the end - it's good to be looking somewhat like everyone else at the game. Also, may just be me, but mucking seems a lot easier if you're the dealer, or it'd be too much work to clean up - but I'm just talking out my ass here, I don't know. Besides, if I were hiring a croupier, I'd be expecting them to deal like at a casino, and as such, the cards would be in full view on the table at all times, with a cut card and the dealer dealing from full grip. So there goes cold decking, too, I guess.

 

[BnibroC69]

and the dealer dealing from full grip.

Casino dealers use a mechanic's grip, actually. Although the full grip is used by the majority of laymen.

 

[eostresh]

If you're in a game, obviously people have different styles of handling cards, but in the end - it's good to be looking somewhat like everyone else at the game.

Exactly....that is my point. Smooth elegant style of most of the great magicians who are well known gambling demos tend to use is NOT that way most people deal and shuffle cards. Even if they are "good" (I mean good in layman's terms here) with a deck of cards. That is the style of card handling, (running cuts,tabled faros, tabled riffles held close to the table so the bottom card can not be peeked) that is associated with professional croupiers.

Ultimately I started this thread to get at the point that we should not forget that when we are doing a gambling demo we are entertaining our spectators, or at least that is what we should be doing. Fool your spectators, of course that is your job, but there is no need to fool yourself. If I started demonstrating my skill at a game with real money on the table I probably wouldn't get beat up or shot (no need to do that until you are caught red handed) but I reckon a lot of the players would be tipped wise to me and find some excuse to go home early....before they lost any money.

I think if we swallow our pride long enough to realize that what we are doing, and how we are performing, probably wouldn't fool a real gambler, then we can focus on the real reason we do gambling demonstrations. To entertain people! It is like a action Hollywood movie. There are lots of people in the world that live thrilling and exciting lives, but even still the average Hollywood action film packs more action in two hours than than those people who lead "adventurous lives" experience in two years. So what I am saying is that we should quit worrying about how our skills would match up with a real card sharp and allow ourselves to focus more on what aspects of our performances appeal to our spectators. To twist around Houdin's words and apply them to gambling demos....

"You are not a card sharp! You are an actor playing the part of a card sharp!"

 

[TheatreHead]

A Gambling Demonstration is a performance and is therefore theatre. Audiences, make allowances for unrealism in theatre.

Take movies for example. Specifically martial arts films. You think real one on one martial arts fights last for 2 or more minutes? Hell no. 15 seconds and the fight is usually over. Any longer than 20 seconds for a one on one fisticuffs where neither one is attempting to escape is unrealistic. But in movies fights are drawn out, because it's more entertaining, it's more engaging, and audiences enjoy it more. You think audiences would like Bruce Lee ending Chuck Norris in a 10 second bout? Hell no. But that's what would happen realistically. Who cares about being realistically accurate if you can provide more entertainment? A large majority of people who watch martial arts films are not martial artists. They don't really know the difference.
I have to bite my tongue when my friends start praising the 'excellent fight choreography' in films like 'Rush Hour' and whatnot. But I'm a martial artist, and I see the unrealism. They aren't, and they don't, and they don't care. They enjoy it better the way it is, and they'd probably enjoy it less if it was more realistic.

Let sleeping dogs lie.

To address your quote from Houdin "A magician is an actor playing a part of a magician", if we were really magicians, would we be using decks of cards, or coins or spongeballs? If I really had magic, there's no way I'd being doing something as menial as ascertaining a chosen card. (Perhaps a thought of card, but even then, why not just outright read their mind?).

 

[saborfang17]

Casino dealers use a mechanic's grip, actually. Although the full grip is used by the majority of laymen.

I meant I'd be having the dealer deal from a full grip with a cut card - although Clock said somewhere on the Cafe that he created a bottom deal from full grip, and I tend to agree with his thoughts here:

Hey all,

I have devised a method to deal bottoms from full grip naturally. The only reason I have been fooling around with it is because if I saw someone dealing from full grip, I wouldn't even question that they were dealing fairly.

My question is; do you think it even matters what grip you deal from (erdnase/master/full)? The average player would not look at an erdnase grip and suspect much, but I know I would.

To answer everyone's questions about the vid...I am sorry to keep you guys waiting...I have been tied down shooting another project (a 3 card monte project in fact). I have been completley immersed in this thing, but I'm in post stage now so it shouldn't be too long. Thanks for being so patient.

Best,

Clock

Not that I wouldn't write someone off for using a full grip like Clock as far as cheating, but I would make the assumption they're inexperienced. Naturally, I'm assuming it would be harder to have stable bottoms with a smooth rhythm from a full grip than some sort of mechanics/(modified) erdnase/straddle grip. However, if it's a professional croupier I'm paying for, it shouldn't be too much of a problem for them.