Omg... Criss Angel

[Crede]

I second formula's statement. I gotta say Mr. William Draven, this has made me lose some respect for you. I have ALWAYS read your articles and posts-- far before I had an account-- and enjoyed them. I loved the advice. I've even taken some quotes and put them in word documents to save them. But I haven't commented, because I don't feel the need to, and because, yeah, I have 2 posts, I haven't had an account for long.

If you need people to praise you for your threads in words, perhaps you shouldn't make them, but I pray that you keep doing so, because I, and many other read and enjoy your wonderful advice.

And that is all I have to say on the matter.

 

[Austin Fields]

I wish. How are you not bashing him? You called his effect an unoriginal ripoff mentalism trick.
Basically, you took a pot shot at him it seems. If you care to explain further, I'll listen.
I didn't take it personally, either. I was letting you know it made you look unprofessional by bashing a professional on some forums. That's all.

No no you've misunderstood - first off though, it is a ripoff mental magic effect, it's been published before. Several times under various names, most recently on a Dan Harlan DVD I believe. There's a thread about this on the magic cafe, he should remove the video because it's really not his, but ethics are semantics. He can keep it up, I don't care about that.

What I intended to take a pot shot at, was the community of kids that frequent this website. Most of them don't know their history, and I've seen several posts on here saying they don't care to learn it. They pay $10 for an effect they think is "mentalism" and brag in the comments about how easy the effect is, and how quickly they picked it up. What's on display are the priorities and focus of the users. There's no talk of the subtleties I'm sure Spidey goes over, or the build of the effect, the strong theatrics of the displays etc etc. It's always "I learned this whole thing in a half hour, so you should buy this." or "you can perform this within 5 minutes of watching it, it's that good!".

Frankly, most of the people on this website don't take magic seriously. William has a point, and I admire him for trying to do something about it rather than hide in the shadows like the most of us- waiting for someone who seems like they might be a serious student of the art, and jump in so we can push them in the right direction. (Which is usually away from where this place is headed.) He's going about addressing the problem in an unorthodox way, but possibly the only way. If he made a formal post about this issue he very well may have fallen victim to the very syndrome he's trying to address in this thread.

 

[JD]

No no you've misunderstood - first off though, it is a ripoff mental magic effect, it's been published before. Several times under various names, most recently on a Dan Harlan DVD I believe. There's a thread about this on the magic cafe, he should remove the video because it's really not his, but ethics are semantics. He can keep it up, I don't care about that.

What I intended to take a pot shot at, was the community of kids that frequent this website. Most of them don't know their history, and I've seen several posts on here saying they don't care to learn it. They pay $10 for an effect they think is "mentalism" and brag in the comments about how easy the effect is, and how quickly they picked it up. What's on display are the priorities and focus of the users. There's no talk of the subtleties I'm sure Spidey goes over, or the build of the effect, the strong theatrics of the displays etc etc. It's always "I learned this whole thing in a half hour, so you should buy this." or "you can perform this within 5 minutes of watching it, it's that good!".

Frankly, most of the people on this website don't take magic seriously. William has a point, and I admire him for trying to do something about it rather than hide in the shadows like the most of us- waiting for someone who seems like they might be a serious student of the art, and jump in so we can push them in the right direction. (Which is usually away from where this place is headed.) He's going about addressing the problem in an unorthodox way, but possibly the only way. If he made a formal post about this issue he very well may have fallen victim to the very syndrome he's trying to address in this thread.

Good lord I cannot stand that line. Why in the hell would you want to perform something after knowing how it's done after 5 minutes? That pisses me off. I'm sorry for misunderstanding what you meant. My bad. I agree when you say that they don't care to learn their history. It is very annoying and sad. I told my good friend Zac Eckstein to submit his notes to the Wire (they are so jammed pack with good information) because what these kids need is not another trick. What they need is theory and understanding of how business is taken care of, which is what Zac's notes dealt with.

 

[ZER0]

I think this has all gone too far. This thread has accomplished little more than generating malice and negativity. Sovex I would like to welcome you to the forums and to tell you that this is not dravens best hour! Please dont engage in this negativity that has been drummed up or judge him ENTIRELY based on this thread and his pretentious response to your original post here! Draven, this does (at least to me) come across as a bit petty. It seems that you are upset that the members here dont want to spend 25 bucks on your lecture notes. Im sorry to post a 3rd time on this thread but I feel its time SOMEBODY reminds everyone of why we are all here. To learn, share ideas and opinions, and engage in conversation with like minded individuals. Some might say "to grow." With so many members and for you to say that you are doing all the leg work...you are an intelligent man, you had to know that was somewhat of serious moment of self grandeur. There are currently 24,778 forum members on this site and the way you described them in relation to yourself is just plain distasteful. Im not trying to be yet another person on here attacking you back. I have much respect for you although I must admit this HAS taken a bite out of that. That being said, I apologize if my posts in this thread upset you in any way!
SO. Where do we go from here? I would like to issue a challenge. I will go from this moment on and try to keep in mind that I should try to only bring positive notions to this site and I thank you for inspiring a sunnier side of me in the forums. I challenge every person that reads this to do the same! We all end up feeling (and voicing) our negativity from time to time but lets not keep this going! LETS SUPPORT ONE ANOTHER!! Now lets all talk about happy stuff! "Who likes jellybeans?!"

 

[CaseyRudd]

Draven,

Formula said some of the basic ideas I was going to respond with.

Your thread doesn't have to get many replies to know people are benefiting from your information. This applies to every thread that provokes thinking and new ideas for other magicians to think about.

Your thread that you spoke of has 97 views. Let's say at least half read the whole thing. That makes 48 people, if not more, think about what you have written. Isn't that the point of the forums? Sure you can discuss things with other members, but it's the information people get from the forums is what's most important.

As long as people read it, you are helping other magicians think about their magic in a new way. You don't need it to go "viral" on the board just to have people gather new information about a certain subject. If you want a lot of replies and a lot of attention from a lot of members here, those aren't the intentions you should be having when posting advice or topics. You should be going into it thinking "I hope this helps at least one person think about/improve their magic". That's my attitude in every post I give. If I help at least one person, my job for the moment is done.

Sure there is a lot of "filler" threads in this forum. Every forum has it. The ones that want to improve their magic and want to benefit from advice given by experienced magicians will read your informational thread. They will learn from it. And you did the job you were supposed to do in the first place.

Hopefully I was clear in this post. If you have any other questions, please feel free to send me a PM or email me at casey@theory11.com. Thanks!

 

[Austin Fields]

Zer0, as much as I'd love to agree with you, there's a solid point here. Every once in a while, I get really embarrassed to be a part of this website when I see some of the posts. I really think we need to do away with the "best effect" or "new deck" thread, and start having more meaningful thought provoking posts. If everyone is butterflies and rainbows, how does anyone get better?

 

[SteveF]

Just because you don't get replies doesn't mean people don't read and benefit from your posts. There was no need for this cry for attention.

Agree 100%

 

[Crede]

Beans25, I agree with you that Draven is on a "noble crusade" of sorts to help fix this generation of magicians and though provoke, and that's absolutely great, but this thread doesn't really address that issue. This thread just sort of caused a lot of heated conflict, and is seen by many, including me, as a "cry for attention." In my opinion, it would be better if he plowed forward with his wisdom, rather than moping about the current state of things.

Don't bash the hyperbole, please.

 

[TeeDee]

Mr Draven, with forum threads, as in all communication, "it takes two to tango" as the cliche goes. Your complaint is, essentially, that your input deserves a wider audience because it has intrinsic worth. Well, sorry, but that's not true. While it would be very nice if a mass audience could appreciate classical music, haute cuisine, and the films of Andrei Tarkovsky; they're more likely to enjoy Lady Gaga, McDonalds, and Harry Potter. If you want to introduce a particular audience, say, the younger people who frequent T11, to more "intellectual" ideas, then you need to tailor your approach to them, rather than lambast them for their lack of discernment and youthful naivete.

I suppose what I'm saying is, a failure to teach is a failure of the teacher.

 

[ZER0]

Zer0, as much as I'd love to agree with you, there's a solid point here. Every once in a while, I get really embarrassed to be a part of this website when I see some of the posts. I really think we need to do away with the "best effect" or "new deck" thread, and start having more meaningful thought provoking posts. If everyone is butterflies and rainbows, how does anyone get better?

Beans,
Im not against not liking the type of posts you mention, I 100% understand what youre saying! I just think there is always going to be new young minds looking for information and theyre going to post these things. Whos to be the judge of how annoying is too annoying? Or who can be annoyed by what? I understand wanting more professionalism over new young questions but Im sure you too at one point had questions like these or got excited over a new magic toy or deck of cards. I think thats just the nature of the beast. Lets just start using the search to look for more meaningful information or perhaps the mods can make a new forum section dedicated to serious professionals and inspiring workers. Just an idea. Either way lets all at least try be nicer to EACH OTHER!! Disliking posts and ideas is one thing but lets not see people on here getting personal. I guess that was really my point...

 

[Austin Fields]

Mr Draven, with forum threads, as in all communication, "it takes two to tango" as the cliche goes.

I suppose what I'm saying is, a failure to teach is a failure of the teacher.

whilst I do agree with what you're saying, I'd like to point out that your cliches contradict one another. "It takes two to tango, but it's all the teacher's fault." nothing against you, but it made me laugh - which is good in such a serious thread...

in an effort to lighten up the thread, here's a visual representation of your post

 

[ZER0]

beans, your video tribute is AMAZING!! The beauty of the inter-web...

 

[BnibroC69]

Can't we all just get along and sing a song?

 

[TeeDee]

whilst I do agree with what you're saying, I'd like to point out that your cliches contradict one another. "It takes two to tango, but it's all the teacher's fault." nothing against you, but it made me laugh - which is good in such a serious thread...

LOL. Yeah, I see what you mean!

Although, the sense of "it takes two to tango" is usually, "before you blame someone, take a look at yourself", which doesn't really contradict my main point.

Also, while I'm on the subject, I'd like to defend "a failure to teach is a failure of the teacher" against the charge of cliche. As far as I know, I just made it up while typing that post and was very pleased with creating such a neat aphorism off the cuff!

Anyway, that being said, I take your point.

 

[Zac Eckstein]

I really love how this thread is getting so much flame, and no one cares about the meaningful ones. That's just how it with the users here I suppose. But then again, I am posting right now. Seriously we aren't even talking about magic anymore. We need to lighten up, we do magic you guys!

 

[William Draven]

Just delete the entire mess. I'm an ass, my panties are in a twist, and I need a cookie. I'm Sorry.

 

[RealityOne]

William:

You cannot teach those that do not want to learn. Those that do want to learn will always seek and find knowledge.

One reason for the lack of responses to many of your posts is that people don't have anything to say. Everyone has an opinion on which deck is the best. Few people have seriously thought about issues related to the presentation of magic or the business of magic. They just don't have the experience or knowledge to respond. That doesn't mean that people aren't reading what you write and aren't learning from it.

Now there is the bunch that don't care about your posts and similar posts. Why? Because they get the reactions they want from doing a simple trick for their friends or by posting their video up on Youtube and asking for subscribers. They want nothing more from their magic. Most of them will burn out or fade away. Some will persevere and in time will care.

My final thought is that it is better to teach a lot to the few that care than a little to the many that don't.

 

[CaseyRudd]

Based upon the request of the original poster, I will now close this thread. If you guys have any more questions please feel free to PM me. Thanks!