Commercial or Personal?

yyyyyyy

Elite Member
Apr 7, 2012
537
12
I really hate to post the same question twice, but I've found that the "specialty" forums don't receive the same amount of attention that the General Discussion page gets and I really need some feedback on this one. I've been thinking about making a cardistry project for a while now. It's always been a sort of personal goal to make a complete set of tutorials on my favorite moves. However, I just can't seem to produce anything that I'm proud of. I'm confident in my moves but I'm not confident in my ability to independently produce something worthy of mass-producing. Here is an unlisted video of the moves I intend on publishing at this time. My question to you, is do you believe that these moves are appropriate for a DVD project? Something that would be done on a large scale.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k937VTfcYnk

Please feel free to tell me what you think about them and don't hold anything back. If something isn't good, just let me know. I really appreciate all the help you guys have been giving me, I don't know what I'd do without this community.

-Patrick V.
 
Sep 2, 2007
1,186
16
42
London
I think they're lovely moves and I'd want to learn them. Can you just clarify why you want to release them as a large-scale DVD project, as opposed to, say, releasing one at a time on The Wire (or the video retail platform of your choice)? Releasing two or three separate tutorials would give you the chance to iron out any issues with your shooting and editing process and also allow you to test the market with minimal upfront investment.
 

timsilva

Elite Member
Nov 18, 2007
404
43
California
timsilva.com
Love the moves, I would pay for clear instructions on 75% of these creations, I think this collection is a goldmine. ;) I wouldn't mind if it were a single DVD or individual releases on The Wire. I do understand why you are stuck in the middle though, as this material could be worth the effort of a larger production.

I think the production quality of this video is exceptional for a one-man operation (although I realize it is a showcase view, and not an over the shoulder angle or a mixture of different perspectives that would each require time to master). But your lighting, music choices, and composition are all respectable.

A few comments on the moves, as well as a quick list explaining whether or not I'd be interested learning in each one:

Alpha Y
Claw N - Too similar to dM's material imo.
Dime Y
Splash Y - Perfect naming, truly fits.
Grenade N
Hack Y
Griffin Y
Missile Y - LOVE it, its like Bullet's cousin or something. :D
Swing Y - Step aside Mockingbird… This move has class. GJ
Terraform N
Twix Y
WindupToy Y

I would happily support your ideas as a dvd or independent releases. :) Maybe release one or two of your flagship moves independently and then try to pursue a wider release if you gain a strong enough following... Best of luck!
 

yyyyyyy

Elite Member
Apr 7, 2012
537
12
Can you just clarify why you want to release them as a large-scale DVD project, as opposed to, say, releasing one at a time on The Wire

I'm not very enthusiastic about putting a large cardistry project on the Wire, those don't really work well. I thought about releasing them one at a time but it's just not how I want to release my material. It's a different image in my opinion, single releases on the wire as opposed to a DVD project. I just can't see my production quality getting any higher than "YouTube Good". I'm working independently, so it's difficult to get much motion in my shots without over doing things in post production. Bas John has some phenomenal work but I'm not so sure he's working alone.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

yyyyyyy

Elite Member
Apr 7, 2012
537
12
Alpha Y
Claw N - Too similar to dM's material imo.
Dime Y
Splash Y - Perfect naming, truly fits.
Grenade N
Hack Y
Griffin Y
Missile Y - LOVE it, its like Bullet's cousin or something. :D
Swing Y - Step aside Mockingbird… This move has class. GJ
Terraform N
Twix Y
WindupToy Y

I would happily support your ideas as a dvd or independent releases. :) Maybe release one or two of your flagship moves independently and then try to pursue a wider release if you gain a strong enough following... Best of luck!

Thank you so much, this type of feedback was exactly what I was looking for. I'm confident in my material, but I just don't want to release it incorrectly. I had some issues with some of the moves as well and you confirmed my feelings for all of the moves I didn't like very much.
 
May 18, 2008
807
0
I agree with Timsilva.

Definitely some GOLD here, but the market is flooded with flourishes and without any sort of audience to play to, it's tough to give moves the attention they deserve. My advice would be try and get the attention of big name flourishers (Jikh, Madison, James) and see if any of them have any advice from when they started out. I think a couple of independent releases could definitely help out.

Your moves are quite good. Make sure people see them!
 

yyyyyyy

Elite Member
Apr 7, 2012
537
12
I released my move Orbit as a sort of social experiment, and it didn't receive the reaction I was quite looking for. That could also just be an ego problem, but the overall feel of the Wire isn't what I'm going for. I'll definitely be releasing some more stuff on the Wire but I'm saving my favorites for the project. I doubt the "big names" are going to have much to say to me. I haven't really "proved" myself to that crowd yet, it would be difficult to come across as anything except amateur. I understand what you're saying though, look for some first-hand experience and learn from it.
 
Aug 31, 2007
799
1
It's hard to make 'name' for yourself in the flourishing community. Flourishing DVDs themselves are few and far between, I can't count more than 10 that I know of off the top of my head. My personal advice to you would be to release as many free tutorials as you can on your channel to build up a following - but unless you can secure a deal with a big name company, there's very little money in cardistry.

What you could try, is releasing a collection of 3-4 moves at a time on the wire. Just an idea :)

Anyway, I love the moves, and think you're on your way! Keep it up.
 

yyyyyyy

Elite Member
Apr 7, 2012
537
12
I really don't like the "constant free tutorials" strategy. It makes you look like you want to give everything away and people come to your channel exclusively for that purpose. They get their free stuff and they leave. Also, try to charge money after that point. Everyone gets all upset because you suddenly asked for money. I'm trying to avoid that look. Plus, it's not like I create my moves just for the sake of giving them away. I've only got so many good ideas. If I start giving stuff away, I won't have any of my moves that I've really worked on. It's a weird situation. It appears that releasing independently is what everyone is leaning towards.
 
May 18, 2008
807
0
I really don't like the "constant free tutorials" strategy. It makes you look like you want to give everything away and people come to your channel exclusively for that purpose. They get their free stuff and they leave. Also, try to charge money after that point. Everyone gets all upset because you suddenly asked for money. I'm trying to avoid that look. Plus, it's not like I create my moves just for the sake of giving them away. I've only got so many good ideas. If I start giving stuff away, I won't have any of my moves that I've really worked on. It's a weird situation. It appears that releasing independently is what everyone is leaning towards.


I can see that for sure. Don't be afraid to give stuff away (if you give away the right good thing, it could get you a following for life), but on the other hand it's tough to give away everything. Zach is right that it's hard to make money with flourishing by itself, but it's not impossible.

If you feel like releasing it, it's definitely good enough material for it. It's just about audience. Worst case? No one sees it, and you have a shot at re-releasing it at a future date.
 
Aug 16, 2011
141
18
I'm not even a big fan of flourishing, but that video was SICK!! Maybe you can give away one of the flourishes for free and show the trailer at the end for people to buy the DVD or Download for the rest? Also, your video/editing is very professional. What kind of camera are you using and what software are you using to edit? Thanks and keep up the great work!
 

yyyyyyy

Elite Member
Apr 7, 2012
537
12
I'm probably going to release Splash for free. People seem to like it and it's an easy move. I'll get started on that download right away. And I use a Canon T3i along with Sony Vegas Pro 12. Thanks for your support, I appreciate it.
 
Aug 31, 2007
799
1
I really don't like the "constant free tutorials" strategy. It makes you look like you want to give everything away and people come to your channel exclusively for that purpose. They get their free stuff and they leave. Also, try to charge money after that point. Everyone gets all upset because you suddenly asked for money. I'm trying to avoid that look. Plus, it's not like I create my moves just for the sake of giving them away. I've only got so many good ideas. If I start giving stuff away, I won't have any of my moves that I've really worked on. It's a weird situation. It appears that releasing independently is what everyone is leaning towards.

That's life xD If you charge for your moves, people will get mad at you for charging. If you release free moves, they will expect everything to be free. No matter what you do, there will be people who will be mad. People judge no matter what you do, so do what you like to do.

The best advice I can give you, is try to make your audience like you, not just your moves. If they like you, they will stay with you no matter what you do - charge, give away, they'll stick with you. Not all of them, but the ones that count.
 
Dec 18, 2007
1,610
14
64
Northampton, MA - USA
I really hate to post the same question twice, but I've found that the "specialty" forums don't receive the same amount of attention that the General Discussion page gets and I really need some feedback on this one. I've been thinking about making a cardistry project for a while now. It's always been a sort of personal goal to make a complete set of tutorials on my favorite moves. However, I just can't seem to produce anything that I'm proud of. I'm confident in my moves but I'm not confident in my ability to independently produce something worthy of mass-producing. Here is an unlisted video of the moves I intend on publishing at this time. My question to you, is do you believe that these moves are appropriate for a DVD project? Something that would be done on a large scale.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k937VTfcYnk

Please feel free to tell me what you think about them and don't hold anything back. If something isn't good, just let me know. I really appreciate all the help you guys have been giving me, I don't know what I'd do without this community.

-Patrick V.

Why do you feel you must mass produce anything?

The generation before mine typically refrained from pooping out products until they were well established by 20 or more years, as a working pro. There were a few amazing exceptions such as that New England Plumber that "discovered" how to make a ball float behind a towel (Joe Carson, inventor of the Zombie), but in truth the whole trend that's unfolded in the past dozen or so years IS NOT what magic is about.

I think it was the Amateur Magicians' Handbook that opens with the line "If you want to become a famous magician, write a book". . . in Henry's time that was the big statement in that books were costly to print and involved a lot more than we have today; a process few of us tend to consider now days, in fact.

By waiting a bit. . . by using what naturally comes to you over a period of YEARS doing the work and tinkering around, you will develop your own material as well as personalizations to classic effects; that is how magic gets developed in the real world. Granted, you'll hear stories about Max Maven and others that come up with a dozen pieces between breakfast and dinner but the other side of that coin is that they started out developing a single idea each day and only after they'd been working with an act for a number of years.

I've been very fortunate to be a part of several development teams, most notably Ken Whitaker's Creative Illusions in Las Vegas. Some of the material we produced from that shop took more than a year worth of experimenting and that's with three or four very experienced minds working on them.

Now, go back and count how many times I used the word EXPERIENCE in this post and consider the fact that this is the primary ingredient in ALL creative processes. Also consider that old farts like myself have file cabinet upon file cabinet filled with notes and drafting templates for "original" effects, including how to improve their own stuff. . . I'm presently working with a member of this very forum, up-dating an old piece of mine so we can put it on the market. That particular effect is 30 years old but was exclusive to me until now, as I prepare to release it sometime between Halloween and next February (manufacturing is the issue).

Don't be so hard on yourself. Challenge yourself for certain, but don't try to race to market with things, they are your "children" so nurture them and help them to evolve before you send them out, into the world. Let them help define you by way of your performances or, if you're like me, the performances of special friends with whom you share the routines for their benefit.

Just some food for thought.
 

yyyyyyy

Elite Member
Apr 7, 2012
537
12
I am an impulsive and often impatient 16 year old teenager. Obviously, I haven't quite gathered the fundamental experience necessary for these sorts of things. But I can see what you're saying, I've been talking to quite a few people about this subject and they haven't come to a clear consensus. Some people can't really be relied on because they either just want the moves themselves or they're just fans of my work and can't give me an honest opinion. So I've tried talking to a few others, trying to get some word back.

So I talked to Dimitri Arleri, who is releasing his project Monument here relatively soon. It was extremely useful to hear all of his thoughts on the subject. But the one that relates to what you're saying, is Dimitri refuses to show anything that he hasn't perfected yet. And the process of perfecting a move often takes at least a year. So the general theme that comes across is no, I don't take enough time to perfect my material. I'm too intent on sharing it with others. Dimitri has only made two videos, I've made 31. But his two videos are infinitely better than mine and two years apart from each other. Again, the theme is quality over quantity and taking your time.

I've noticed that when everyone starts out with cardistry or magic, they seem desperate to give all of their ideas away. The second they come up with anything they believe is new, they give it away. They just want to get involved in the official community so badly, they give away ideas that they barely put thought into themselves. This comes across as amateur and that's certainly not the image I'm going for. I thought I was above that stage but evidently, I'm not. It appears that my attitude is that of an amateur but my material is slightly better than the normal amateur material.

Thanks for your insights.
 
Dec 18, 2007
1,610
14
64
Northampton, MA - USA
Pav, I think you've learned some valuable lessons and yes, most people that are new to magic get an epiphany nearly every time they learn a couple of new moves or methods thanks to those little lights that come on in our head that show us possibilities. The problem when it comes to creativity and more importantly, creative expression, is that eagerness and lack of experience. When we learn to put on the brakes and take our time we win. . . it's like good wine or even cheese, magic must age first and be coddled so it can mature. . . so we can likewise mature when it comes to understanding.

If an effect or sequence is solid today consider how much better it will be a year or two years after you've developed the initial concept and worked with it all that time. You will be smoother in your presentation, skill of doing all the mechanics, etc. That will help "make your name" faster than the bloody effect. Not everyone can poop out new tricks as fast as Jay Sankey or some of the others out there, and cultivating that sort of reputation can backfire in very ugly ways the further down the road you travel.

BTW. . . when it comes to card tricks, I am rarely curious about moves . . . unless it's a certain level of Mentalism now days, I'm pretty much sated in the method department so don't worry about that one. 97% of the stuff I see is stuff I'll not even consider using and of that 3% remainder . . . well, very little of it will see the light of day by my hand though I may appreciate it. I've just seen too much of this stuff after nearly 50 years tinkering with it.
 
Aug 31, 2007
799
1
Pav, I think what Dimitri had to say probably had a good impact on you - but don't let that completely discount what you've done thus far. It's natural to want to put stuff out, and be impatient, and that can be good. And also - you're clearly not a complete amateur, your skill is quite apparent in your videos, you're a LOT more skilled than 90% of youtube flourishers regardless.

But of course everything takes time - like I said, do what makes you happy. Just not meth. Look where Walter White is right now.
 
Aug 31, 2007
799
1
No problem! I'm enjoying what you've put on the Wire thus far, and am digging your creativity. Looking forward to seeing what you put forward next!
 
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