Unnecessary moves

Sep 8, 2012
86
1
Hi, guys!
I was talking to a friend yesterday about card table artifice, and we got on a very interesting topic(at least to us), so I decided to see what you have to say about it. When you take a look at those "cheating at poker" dvds, in each and every dvd, you will learn at least 5 or 6 shifts. The classic pass, herman pass and herman pass variations are great, but there is a problem. There are also shifts like the ping pong shift, table spin pass, the delay shift and tons of other shifts that could get you shot at the card table. My mentor, who is a real working mechanic, he dismisses moves like these and doesn't bother to practice them at all. On the other side, I do, but just because of the art. How do you feel about such moves, and do you bother to learn or master them? If yes, why?
- I hope this will be an interesting thread. :D
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,877
2,945
I'm pretty sure this will be a discussion of opinions, but there's some potential there, too.

Personally, I only practice the classic and Hermann passes. They are the only ones I ever use (and very rarely, at that).

I do believe there is merit in practicing moves you know you won't do. The more we learn, the better we become in general with handling the cards and the more natural everything will seem. I spend a good bit of time practicing difficult sleight of hand as I find it personally satisfying, but I always use the method which is most simple and still gets the job done without visual compromise on the spectator's end.

Usually this means I end up using maybe 10 different sleights, all of them fairly basic. I see no need to do something which is more difficult than necessary to achieve my desired effect.
 

yyyyyyy

Elite Member
Apr 7, 2012
537
12
Dani DaOrtiz has some interesting thoughts on this subject. He believes that amateurs start off with easy moves, more experienced workers use difficult moves and masters use easy moves. Thinking simple can be very powerful. However, difficult sleights can be worth the effort. It's all about how well it works. The spectator shouldn't be able to perceive that a "move" has taken place.
 
Sep 8, 2012
86
1
Christopher: We couldn't agree more. Although I know a lot of shifts, I use classic and herman pass, depending on the situation. But I wasn't refering just to the shifts, that was only an example. Let's take an experienced flourisher. How many color changes does he know? At least 15. He does one thing in 15 ways. I don't even know the number of controls I know, but I do know that I use 3 of them, and one of them is an original, when I need to bring the card to the bottom, and don't care about misdirection bc people can burn my hands. This is about learning unnecessary moves. How do you feel about them? Do you practice them because they are fun to practice? Do you dismiss new moves that accomplish essentially the same thing?
 
Sep 8, 2012
86
1
Pav: I'm not talking about the difficulty of the sleights, I am talking about magicians practicing moves they never do, or master 20 ways to accomplish the same thing.
 
Jul 13, 2010
526
34
I think any move is only useful in context. A magician is in a completly different situation than a card cheat. Even someone who does gambling demonstrations is in a different situation than a professional card cheat. I think I read that somewhere in an interview with Jason England, or Paul Wilson. I don`t remember.

As a magician you are free to construct your effect the way YOU like.
That means you can use shift variations and other moves that will probably look natural in this special situation, even if they are not suited for the card table.
Would you use a turnover pass at the card table ? Most probably not.
In a trick such as "The Smiling Mule" however, it`s flows well and is a natural motion in context.

Do I practice moves I don`t use ?
Yes, because there are tricks I want to do which require, for the most economic and direct performance, sometimes more difficult moves. I don`t do them until I feel confident enough. Of course you can almost always substitute a sleight with another, but I often don`t feel that a substitute I already can do is good enough for the directness of the trick, so I skip it and learn the necessary moves.
Sometimes that means a year or more of practice. I practiced the pushoff second deal for nearly 2 years until I first used it in a performance.
I´m still far from mastering it, and I wouldn`t use it in a real gambling situation.
Do I feel it was unnecessary ? Absolutely not.
It`s a useful move and that way I learned a much better multiple card pushoff which is an universal useful move.

What Christopher said : "The more we learn, the better we become in general with handling the cards."
Jason England`s foundation series is an excellent example. I love it, although I knew before that I wouldn`t use many of these moves (Center Deal, Greek Deal, McMillan Switch, DPS never) (Bottom Deal, Strike Second and Riffle stacking very seldom and only basically (small packet bottoms and easy stacks)).
I think it is no time wasted trying to learn everything. A professional most probably can`t spend his time with "unnecessary" moves.
Amateurs can ;)
 
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Apr 6, 2011
540
6
Lansing, MI
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this, although Chris certainly touched on it. The reason I learn so many methods for accomplishing the same effect, is so that I can always be using the optimal method. With the pass for example, each and every variation has unique angles and cover, so each one has a different situation in which it works best. Also with the pass, you can practice a few central concepts over and over again, and have fairly good ability at performing many variations. So it's not as if I have to sit down and practice each and every method separately.



As far as unnecessary moves go, I'd say about 99% of sleights that I learn are 100% unnecessary to giving a good show. Many of them still contribute to the effect, bit are ultimately unnecessary. Anyone that watches Dani Da'ortiz's work can see how easy it is to replace nearly any sleight with good scripting.
 
Sep 2, 2007
1,186
16
42
London
I learn loads of sleights and flourishes I'll probably never show to another living person, let alone use in a proper performance. And not only learn to execute them but really work hard at perfecting them. I think people can get a bit too pompous about everything having to be a "real world worker". Of course, if you're in magic just to make a living then, sure, just learn the sleights you need to make that happen. From my point of view, I'm in magic mainly because I'm fascinated by it. I love the history, the personalities, the unsolved mysteries, the theory, the psychology, the performance techniques and the moves. Maybe, especially, the moves. As an enthusiastic young magician, I told one of my magic heroes that I wanted to learn to do everything that was possible with a deck of cards. He seemed slightly amused by this pipe-dream, but I've never lost it. I still want to be able to do all sleight-of-hand because I love it, and I don't think I need any other justification.

Also, even if you are one of these "real world workers" who look down on the impractical dreams of idealists like me, think about these four names: Ed Marlo, Steve Forte, Richard Turner, Dai Vernon. If these people only ever learned and valued the techniques that they were actually going to use in performances, would they be as successful and well-regarded as they are?
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,877
2,945
Also, even if you are one of these "real world workers" who look down on the impractical dreams of idealists like me, think about these four names: Ed Marlo, Steve Forte, Richard Turner, Dai Vernon. If these people only ever learned and valued the techniques that they were actually going to use in performances, would they be as successful and well-regarded as they are?

Considering they used those techniques in performance ... I'm going to go with yes.
 
Sep 2, 2007
1,186
16
42
London
Considering they used those techniques in performance ... I'm going to go with yes.

Really? Did Dai Vernon use all the shifts from Modern Magic in performance? Did Ed Marlo use every one of his tabled palm variations in performance? Does Richard Turner use all of his myriad stacking techniques in performance? Does Steve Forte use all the dice moves he knows in performance?
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,877
2,945
Really? Did Dai Vernon use all the shifts from Modern Magic in performance? Did Ed Marlo use every one of his tabled palm variations in performance? Does Richard Turner use all of his myriad stacking techniques in performance? Does Steve Forte use all the dice moves he knows in performance?

I can't speak for all of them, but I'm betting they used more than you're thinking. Richard Turner is known for these things, after all.

I'm not sure why you're even taking this angle at all, honestly. It doesn't matter what other people think. Do what you enjoy doing and what works for you. Who cares if some random guy thinks you're wasting your time?
 
Sep 8, 2012
86
1
I love where this is going. Personally, I practice almost anything I find fun to practice. I learned tons of sleights I've never used in performances. For example, I am obsessed with center dealing, and I want to learn every method that has ever been invented for center dealing. But some people dismiss that move because it is too difficult to master and has almost no applications. I get more statisfaction in practicing the sleights and moves than actually performing magic.
 
Apr 6, 2011
540
6
Lansing, MI
Who said there's no uses for center's? There's plenty. Out of curiosity, what resource would you recommend to learn the center deal? I've worked with Jason England's DVD on it for a while with zero success.
 
Apr 20, 2013
71
0
I personally uses less unnecessary moves in my magic, just because it fits my style. I would rather take the Classic and Hermann Pass and master it rather than going on 20 passes with the same goal : to pass the card.

In my opinion though, it is up to the magician, his presentation, style and persona. One cannot judge if learning more is better or not.

Just my 2 cents.
- SIN
 
Jul 13, 2010
526
34
But it doesn`t matter if learning more is better or not. If you like practicing moves, who cares ? As an amateur, my personal satisfaction is important, isn`t it ?
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,877
2,945
For anyone, professional or amateur, personal satisfaction is paramount. For the professional, you'll never make a good living if you're not satisfied by performing and practicing because you'll avoid those things if you don't get satisfaction out of them. For the amateur, satisfaction is really all you get.

I'm somewhat repeating myself but learning advanced techniques has a trickle-down effect in that it makes your hands more competent and your movement more natural, even if you only use simple techniques in performance. You can tell the difference between someone who has worked with with chosen prop every day and someone who has not. Or, at least, I can. The person who is completely comfortable and natural in their handling will have more ability to deceive than the person who is awkward with their prop, because the awkwardness draws attention to the prop. Learning moves which are advanced and difficult has the advantage of training your hands to handle that level, which makes handling the far simpler methods used in performance much easier.

Or, to put it another way, if you want to be the best at running a 5K, don't only run 5K. Run 10K and 5K will seem like nothing.
 

yyyyyyy

Elite Member
Apr 7, 2012
537
12
Pav: I'm not talking about the difficulty of the sleights, I am talking about magicians practicing moves they never do, or master 20 ways to accomplish the same thing.

I used difficulty as a way to contrast simplicity. So, I was saying generally experienced magicians stick with simpler methods to their tricks, not necessarily EASIER methods. Just simple, straightforward.
 
May 15, 2012
17
0
Malaysia
ok , for me these techniques can help me ,when someone try to hackle me or i miss my magic ..
Maybe we see these technique from their surface , it seem like not very useful , but when u meet some trouble or problem , it will become a way or a method to help u to solve your problem :D

Beside , you also can show off , haha just a joke
 
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