Improv

Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
I'm going to be uncharacteristically brief on this one. When talking about the making of the Lord of the Rings trilogy, John Rhys-Davies, who played Gimli, said that, "By its very nature 90% of all improvisation is garbage. Sometimes it works, sometimes it just makes a mess. Sometimes it does both."

That in mind, why are so many of you determined to improvise everything that comes out of your mouth?
 

yyyyyyy

Elite Member
Apr 7, 2012
537
12
I don't fully understand your question, what exactly are you referring to?
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
I don't fully understand your question, what exactly are you referring to?

Many magicians insist on improvising their performances. They don't script, they don't rehearse, nothing. And it's always the same excuses. "Rehearsed patter looks fake!" "A more spontaneous performance looks more natural!" "It's about the magic, not the writing!" And yet, I get paid to pretend I can read minds while they consider it a cause for celebration that one of their videos gets 10 views.
 

yyyyyyy

Elite Member
Apr 7, 2012
537
12
Ah, yes. Then I agree with what you're describing, that is extremely ill-advised. A performer should ALWAYS have a plan, you owe it to your audience to arrive organized and well-rehearsed.

The comedic style of the rambler is a testament to the effectiveness of arriving with a plan and still coming across as extremely natural. Dylan Moran and Eddie Izzard are fantastic ramblers, but they've practiced their sets hundreds of times. Performers couldn't be any more natural than men like these, yet these men still see the importance in having a plan.

Then there is the converse of that, performers that are clearly extremely well rehearsed in their performances. A great example of this performance type is Ricky Jay during his show "Ricky Jay and His 52 Assistants". Ricky Jay not only meticulously performs his effects, his demeanor is that of someone that has clearly studied his craft for years. The audience doesn't question Ricky's skill in the slightest, he clearly knows what he's doing and has practiced his performance for years. The last thing on the audience's mind is "He looks a bit rigid." His superior command of his show and his audience leaves nothing more to be desired.

Another good example, Lennart Green. Lennart Green's show is barely even a "magic" show so to speak, it's almost a fascinating lecture. Natural, yes. Rehearsed, yes. Improved, no and yes. Lennart Green is a sort of middle ground between religious rehearsal and quick thinking improvisation. The chaos that he depicts in his show is frequently not actual chaos, as he maintains control of his show despite the frequent "Mistakes" that he makes. So he is almost a rambling magician, clearly well studied, doesn't appear to have any real plan, and yet he does.

These examples are just a few names that come to mind, no "great" performer just shows up and wings it. I agree with you, the mindset is a bit screwed.

-Patrick Varnavas
 
Apr 17, 2013
885
4
I am one of the odd ones. In high school, I picked the brains of the drama club director. When I got to Ohio State, the first thing I did was make friends with the theater guys and gals. I have a director for my cabaret shows. I have a woman who reads over my scripts. I have a script for my cabaret and close up shows. Not the table hoping or strolling, but a sit down show.

For my strolling and table hoping shows, I go with the Eric Clapton school of guitar playing for my patter. I have a solid outline of what I am saying. I know what lines I's going to use getting to the end, but I keep a running list of one liners and other outs for the hecklers or that moment when to need to stall for the kitchen. It's not really "improv", but it is having a deep list of riffs I can fall back on as the need arises. Like if you listen to the body of Clapton's live work over the last 50 years, you will hear the same licks in the solos many many times. He knows where he is going with it. He knows what works. The same is true of the great guitar players. Their improv is highly rehearsed.
 
Oct 20, 2008
273
0
Austin, TX area
I've spent today arranging rehearsal space and a common schedule for an improv troupe. My current class will be playing on stage tomorrow night as well. I do perform, if very irregularly, a parlor-sized act in the real world. So, I hope to weigh the pros and cons of improv from the middle ground.

First of all, John Rhys-Davies was speaking entirely about different schools of acting and/or theater. It's almost certain that he meant this form of Improv. There are other schools of acting which tend to abhor improvisation. That happens.

As a form of acting, Improv also teaches the kind of tools that Andrew Garfield used to land the Spider-Man role. Bill Murray has made a lot of wonderful movies through improvisation and ad-libbing. Not all of his roles were comedic ones.

There are a lot of schools of acting. John Rhys-Davies has his preferences and has been successful with his own career. Other people have succeeded by coming from other schools of theater. That happens in any craft, including magic.

With that out of the way, I'm ready to talk about magic.

If I am doing something that requires the spectators to merely spectate, then I need a script and, typically, some form of choreography. I even write my own music for magic acts. My club has had invaluable advice for my scripting work. It all means practicing the craft, and then practicing the performance.

There are a lot of skills you receive when you train in improv that help you make a volunteer a part of the spotlight. You're not only ready for the unexpected, but you've trained to make everything that person does a positive part of your show. Your spectator/volunteer can do almost nothing wrong but almost every choice is the right one. So, I'm going to say that trained improv really, really helps with that specific goal.

I am, to reiterate, talking about trained improvisation. I am talking about planned motivation for using that training. Also, I still have a beginning, a purpose and an end-goal even if much in the middle is made up on the spot. I would have missed a lot of great moments if I avoided any improvisational elements at all (Rhys-Davies). I would have no consistent character, act, or purpose as a magician (besides "look at meeeee!") if I did not prepare a great deal of material beforehand.

In short, there have been other times when absolutely odd things happened that just can't be planned for. I was already trained with the instinct to make that a part of the show.

I can't fully agree or disagree with Steerpike. I very much believe the magic show needs planned purpose. It needs a planned theme. It needs some sort of preparation of the sort that has nothing to do with the effects. It needs the things that come with preparation. The rest, I think, comes down to different schools of theater.
 

yyyyyyy

Elite Member
Apr 7, 2012
537
12
Well, I believe he was referring to improvisation in a more formal performance scenario. I could be wrong though, that's just how I interpreted it. However, when it comes to trained improvisation you are spot on. Think of it like this, you don't script your walk-around performances. You have to be prepared to react to anything and your performance will change in ways that you could never expect. The reason this happens is because walk-around performances aren't nearly as rhetorical as a stage performance, they're completely reliant on the actions of the participating audience members. So yes, I would agree with you as well.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
I've spent today arranging rehearsal space and a common schedule for an improv troupe. My current class will be playing on stage tomorrow night as well. I do perform, if very irregularly, a parlor-sized act in the real world. So, I hope to weigh the pros and cons of improv from the middle ground.

For the sake of exposition, I do have a theater background. Nowhere near as much training as some here, such as yourself, have had, but enough to at least know my ass from a hole in the ground.

That said, I use John Rhys-Davies as an example because the Lord of the Rings trilogy is huge, and people may be more inclined to listen to an actor from a movie they loved than a loudmouth narcissist like yours truly.

I'm not opposed to the ability to improvise. I am however opposed to this idea so many magicians take that they don't need to rehearse. Ever. I've seen videos where 90% of the stuff they said was some variation on, "Uhhh..." That's the point where a guy has to admit he has a problem. Being able to gracefully improvise off the cuff is difficult. It takes work. And that unfortunately is work that a lot of magicians think is beneath them. So instead they just make everything up as they go with no structure whatsoever. It's like watching children play, but without any charm or imagination.

I frequently hear the excuse that a rehearsed performance looks fake, but that's bull****. The whole point of good acting is that it's not supposed to look like acting.
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,877
2,945
I think the major issue that many people don't realize that improv is a skill that needs to be trained. They think when they get up in front of a crowd they'll just say whatever's on their mind. This is why so many of those performances are full of nothing, because suddenly the mind goes blank.

There's a huge difference between straight up improv, and being flexible in your presentation. Having a big ol' reservoir of one liners and such that you've honed over time and have developed the skill in using them, that's being flexible.

I most certainly do script my walk around and strolling performances. I know what I'm going to say for every trick. That doesn't mean I can't deviate from that script. But every time I do a certain trick, I'm going to say more or less the same thing. That kind of consistency is important for honing the effect of the trick. If you change more than one thing at a time, you don't know what's making your performance work or fail.
 
Apr 17, 2013
885
4
The uhh and Umm and lip smacking thing drives me nuts. My father was a radio man til the day he died. The one thing he taught me is you don't need to fill that silence everytime. Sometimes that pause builds a little tension. A moment for the audience to lean in. many times it's not what you say, it's knowing when not to say anything.
 
Oct 20, 2008
273
0
Austin, TX area
Steerpike, I'm mostly agreeing with you.

My only disagreement is in the sour mood toward a different performing style. I don't like to see it from talented people like John Rhys-Davies (assuming he meant disdain in his statement). It's a tool that I have seen come in very useful in both my own performances and the performances of accomplished friends.

I think the major issue that many people don't realize that improv is a skill that needs to be trained.
Yes. This was also part of what I was trying to get at. There is a big difference between improv as an art and trying to make up your act on the spot.

That's a division I'm trying to make: studied, practiced improv versus "making it up on the spot."

Training, and practice, and more practice, and even more practice until improvisation becomes muscle memory are going to be required to skip out on writing your script. Also, for people who aren't Steerpike or theater types, improv is not all about the comedy games you see on tv. We call those things warm-ups. Much more of it focuses on creating shared narratives across all genres. Again, you learn to accept anything and include it into your part of the narrative.

I do not believe that a magic act should be made up on the spot. I believe that route leads to the worst kind of realism: the magician will very much appear to be unprepared. There is even some shameful experience in this statement. However, I don't think it's right to dismiss or disdain what can be an extremely useful tool for someone willing to put the work into learning it.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
Steerpike, I'm mostly agreeing with you.

My only disagreement is in the sour mood toward a different performing style. I don't like to see it from talented people like John Rhys-Davies (assuming he meant disdain in his statement). It's a tool that I have seen come in very useful in both my own performances and the performances of accomplished friends.

He was referencing the fact that several of his lines are ad-libbed in the movies. But the majority of the stuff he ad-libbed never made it because it wasn't any good.

That's the problem I'm approaching. I have nothing against you or what you do. I do however get a burr under my saddle that so many magicians know so little about acting that they couldn't even tell you that there are different schools. At best, most of them are vaguely aware of method acting in the way that, "Oh yeah, isn't that what the crazies like Christian Bale do?" They think improv is the way to money, fame, and thrown panties, not necessarily in that order, and they're really just too lazy to rehearse. It's obnoxious. You've probably seen the kind of performances I'm referring to. Lots of filler words, droning, stuttering, and the presentation is some copy-pasted generic pap at best, and say-do-see at worst. They claim that by improvising you can come up with smooth reactions to what the audience is doing in real time, and yes, you can do that. But the guys I'm talking about never do that. They always come up with something really lame, if they respond at all.
 
Apr 17, 2013
885
4
I know it seems like the book Magic and Showmanship by Nelms gets tossed around on the magician forums. It's like one of those books that magicians say you should read ad no one ever does, but that book and the write up on David Ben in the November 1996 Linking Ring is what got me into script writing and finding a director. those two things were game changers for me.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
To put it another way that I hope clarifies things, there are two kinds of magicians.

The first type has training of some kind in theater, or has studied the craft in some way. They know when to stay on script and when to go off script. They acknowledge that when they go off script, not all lines are going to be winners. They discard what doesn't work and keep what does. Watching them perform is a wonder because they are graceful, charismatic and dynamic.

The second type has no experience in theater whatsoever and claim that by improvising their act completely, they are somehow making it more "real" or "authentic" or "spontaneous." Watching them perform is often sad because they come across less like a conjurer and more like a monkey trying to hump a football.

It's not improvisation itself I dislike. It's that it's often done so badly.
 
Apr 17, 2013
885
4
To put it another way that I hope clarifies things, there are two kinds of magicians.

The first type has training of some kind in theater, or has studied the craft in some way. They know when to stay on script and when to go off script. They acknowledge that when they go off script, not all lines are going to be winners. They discard what doesn't work and keep what does. Watching them perform is a wonder because they are graceful, charismatic and dynamic.

The second type has no experience in theater whatsoever and claim that by improvising their act completely, they are somehow making it more "real" or "authentic" or "spontaneous." Watching them perform is often sad because they come across less like a conjurer and more like a monkey trying to hump a football.

It's not improvisation itself I dislike. It's that it's often done so badly.

i'm willing to bet that the second type of magician thinks that what they have seen David Blaine do is all made up there on the spot. Also those types film themselves and put it on youtube no matter how bad it is. I film my walk through and my practice. The walk through/stage rehearsal is only seen by me and my director. The practice is only seen by me. Why try and be internet famous. Not all of us can be lucky enough to be Jonathan Coulton. Why not start and be famous in your home town?
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
i'm willing to bet that the second type of magician thinks that what they have seen David Blaine do is all made up there on the spot. Also those types film themselves and put it on youtube no matter how bad it is. I film my walk through and my practice. The walk through/stage rehearsal is only seen by me and my director. The practice is only seen by me. Why try and be internet famous. Not all of us can be lucky enough to be Jonathan Coulton. Why not start and be famous in your home town?

None of them know the kind of work that went into that, either. David was a magician when he was in grade school and made connections that allowed him to reach mastery by a comparatively young age. And he networked constantly while also receiving training in theater. And after his mother died, he apprenticed with Paul Harris.

Jonathon Coulton has been playing music since his teenage years and sang in an a capella group while he was at Yale. He then produced Thing a Week, forcing himself to write and record a new song for a podcast every single week for a year. Show of hands, who thinks they could pull that off with their current musical training/experience (or lack thereof)? Then he got a series of opportunities that he was smart to seize upon, such as his friend John Hodgman asking Coulton to come with him on his book signing tour as his "personal troubadour."

But all of that talk of practice, networking, and opportunism isn't very sexy, so we get people creating videos so awful they've been banned under the Geneva conventions in a vainglorious attempt to make them go viral. All because they're too goddamn lazy to actually be good at anything.

Yeah, can you tell I've got a lot of aggression to work out today?
 
Apr 17, 2013
885
4
I understand it. I have been in magic since 1993. I met my mentor when I was 14 years old. I worked on my act til I was almost 18 before anyone who wasn't a magician saw it. I'll spend a month working on the script for on effect. When I learn something new, I'll spend months with it. Learning how to do it as many different ways as I can. To get the handling into the most natural and simplistic way out there. I spend enough time with the effect so the moves become part of my natural movements.

There is a section in the Dai Vernon Book of Magic that talks about making sure all of your moves and handling is as natural as possible. It seems like now everyone is into the hardest slight they can do not the most natural.
 

c.t

Apr 17, 2013
125
0
Australia
I agree with what your saying here that improv looks better rehearsed but you need to know how to fluke your way out of it if something goes wrong.
if im performing i almost never have a set routine, i dont know the first trick im going to do, i normally only make up my mind after ive controlled the card to where i want it, but once i start the trick i have my little "of the spot jokes" and stuff that makes the performance better, improv is better rehearsed but you need to properly know how to improv or your stuffed as soon as you make a mistake.
 
Apr 17, 2013
885
4
I agree with what your saying here that improv looks better rehearsed but you need to know how to fluke your way out of it if something goes wrong.
if im performing i almost never have a set routine, i dont know the first trick im going to do, i normally only make up my mind after ive controlled the card to where i want it, but once i start the trick i have my little "of the spot jokes" and stuff that makes the performance better, improv is better rehearsed but you need to properly know how to improv or your stuffed as soon as you make a mistake.

That's just it. If you know what you are going to do before you start then the chance of something going wrong drops to nil. If you rehearse and work on your routines then you know your outs and will know where to go if that small chance of something going wrong goes. I couldn't fathom walking out on stage in front of 600 people and wing it. When i did my first stage show, I did dress reversals twice a day for two weeks leading up to the event. I spent the last week before the event on the stage checking the lighting the angles and LOS. I knew every effect i would be before I stepped foot on that stage. I knew what close up I was going to do for the CEO of the company that hired me. I knew the three things I would be doing for the event staff after I walked off stage.

If you look around at those of us who make a living doing magic, you will see guys who spend hours a day getting their poop in a group. They know what their openers are the closers are. That one effect you hold back for the staff of the event. The one effect they hold back for the VIP of the event. Those quick effects that you have on you to stall for time. A well though out and rehearsed show can look very natural, but you need to spend time with the act. You think that Ricky Jay, Dai Vernon, or David Blaine just went out and winged it? Even Slydini's act which looked like it was made up on the spot was thought out and planned.
 
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