Please help me improve my bottom deal

[LarryX]

A couple weeks back I first posted a thread asking for help on my Classic Pass. It helped me a lot, so I decided to ask for help on another move: the bottom deal.

I have two sources of the bottom deal: Expert at the Card Table by S.W Erdnase, and Jason England. They both mention to buckle the bottom card to loosen it, but whenever I do that it shifts my deck, screwing me over. I tried many grips: Erdnase grip, modified Erdnase grips, and mechanic grip but none work. I think I have a real problem in buckling my bottom card without shifting my deck. it seems as though when I buckle my card to shift it out of the deck, I instead shift out the entire deck.....Can anyone help me with this?

 

[arbaaz786]

is your cards are ultra sticky? if not then the problem is in your grip when you hold the deck in original erdnase grip ypu have to grip the deck with your middle finger and your palm try to hold deck and turn your hand over and see if the cards are dropping or not if cards are dropping then your grip is not correct i know this happens i am doing false deals for 1.5 years now and dont make your grip lose when you buckel the card hope that helps and it also depends on time you have to give time to it for how much time you are practicing bottom dealing?

 

[TeeDee]

A couple of thoughts.

Are you sure that Erdnase says to buckle the bottom card? I know that a lot of people say that he does, but I'm also aware that others say that he doesn't. What the description of Erdnase's action might be is a direct push-out with the tip of the third finger, as opposed to a buckle-then-push-out. It might possibly reduce your chances of dislodging the deck if you place the tip of your third finger on the face of the bottom card and simply extend it, as opposed to buckling it. I hope that makes sense.

My other point is that this grip problem in the bottom deal is very common, and tends to disappear with practice. Even Erdnase mentions that "the deck will have a tendency to slip towards the wrist", so you're in good company in encountering this issue. It's basically an issue for those of us with small hands, but improving your finger-strength and flexibility will definitely help the grip feel more secure. "Practice will soon do the rest."

 

[Zvik2246]

Not sure how helpful my reply will be.. but have you considered the Madison Grip by Daniel Madison?
I'm also working on the bottom deal and I found his handling very useful. You can find his works on the bottom deal in his books and
recently released DVD "Mechanic". I'm not gripping the deck just like DM because I'm more comfortable with just striking the bottom card (Strike bottom also explained in Jason England's download). The Bottom deal requires A-LOT of practice.. Don't give up!

Hope I helped

 

[LarryX]

I appreciate the responses. I am sure it is indeed a buckle to loosen the bottom card, because Jason England also says it and demonstrates it. Right now, out of all the grips I've tried, the original Erdnase grip works best (If you clench the cards with the second finger and palm, the deck is more firmly held than all the other grips). I also am able to successfully bottom deal when the deck is perhaps 2/3rd of its original size. I do hope that as Erdnase and TeeDee quoted: "Practice will soon do the rest".

I don't know what DM's grip looks like, but if I had to guess from what you told me (striking the card), it would be a straddle grip. I know that's a good grip, but I would rather first learn Erdnase's grip, because I think that in mastering that I can slowing adjust myself to other grips.

 

[TeeDee]

I am sure it is indeed a buckle to loosen the bottom card, because Jason England also says it and demonstrates it.

It's certainly a matter that's open for dispute. We're all reading the same text and just because one authority reads it a particular way doesn't mean that's the definitive answer. In the description of the one-hand bottom deal, Erdnase tells us, "instead of pushing out the bottom card as in the two-handed deal, it is sprung back a little by the third finger tip". Now, I contend that one way of reading that is to interpret this "springing back" action as Erdnase's reference to the buckle, which would imply that he didn't intend it to be used in the two-handed deal. If, however, you do want an authority for the non-buckle version, check out Steve Freeman's execution on the Revelations DVDs. I think it may be a hand-size issue. Going from the available evidence, I'd suggest Erdnase, Steve Freeman and I have all got relatively small hands, which allows the direct push-out to feel fairly natural, whereas Jason England has pretty large hands which means the buckle may be more effective.

 

[LarryX]

Well I find it impossible to push out the bottom card without buckling it. My hands are kind of big, not impressively big like Jason England though. However, I find the buckle, though it might shift the whole deck, is the only way I can extract the bottom card.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

First, a caveat - I'm currently working on the bottom deal, therefore, not even remotely an expert. But perhaps I can offer a point of view closer to yours than those who have at least somewhat perfected it and therefore lost sight of those minor adjustments they had to make to attain their current skill.

First thing - Do not try to learn one grip, then another, then another, etc. Pick a grip that works for you and learn everything with that grip. Yes, some things will be harder with a universal grip, but they will be overall more deceptive because there won't be a change that can be detected. Find a grip that's comfortable for your hand and work EVERYTHING with that grip. Tops, seconds, bottoms, whatever. That uniformity will increase your deceptiveness a lot.

Second thing - There is no 'ultimate grip' that works for everyone. I use a grip somewhere between Madison and Erdnase. It allows me to control the deck while also having enough looseness to get to whichever cards I need. If you try to force your hands to use a grip exactly as described, you're possibly forcing a square peg into a round hole.

Third thing - The specific word that perfectly describes the action is just semantics. When I'm doing the bottom deal I use something that's not quite a buckle, not quite a direct push-out. My left finger 3 pushes the outer right corner of the bottom card back toward the body and then to the right.

I suspect what's going on is that you're inadvertently putting pressure on the deck between the bottom card and the base of your thumb. This causes the bottom card to bend upward, which then creates a perfect little shunt to shoot the middle of the deck away from your palm to the right.

The other thing I find happens is that as I'm trying to get the cards off the bottom, I create that kind of shunt towards my wrist and the middle of the deck slides that way.

All of this is reducing as I just practice and fine tune the technique.

Don't be afraid to change anything you're doing if it's not working for you, as long as the final outcome is what you're going for.

 

[c.t]

I never had any reliable sources up until now (nearly a year after i started learning the move) so it was all self taught therefore I knew what worked FOR ME, just muck around with it until you find a way that suits you.

 

[LarryX]

Thanks particularly to ChristopherT. You hit my problems pretty much spot on. I think that I find the original Erdnase grip most effective. The firm grip allows me to take the bottom card without worrying as much about sliding out the deck. I will practice this bottom deal until I can at least perform it in action. I can finally at least perfectly (though slowly) extract the bottom card with a deck size of 40 cards or less.

 

[simplicity1356]

I hate to plug an Ellusionist release on a Theory 11 but Daniel Madison's dvd Mechanic along with his book How to Cheat at Cards has helped all my gambling moves a lot and seeing as he uses or at least used these at actual card tables I would think that his methods could be used to fool average Joes. I find it helps to grip the deck more with the fingers and less with the palm if that makes any sense.

 

[Zvik2246]

You should really check DM grip. It's not a straddle grip and by the answer I know you haven't seen it. Daniel has his own handling -therefor "the Madison grip"- maybe I wasn't clear - I strike the card he isn't.

 

[LarryX]

Well, I couldn't find his performance on youtube, and I don't have his DVD. The straddle grip is the only thing I could think of that I haven't mentioned and uses a strike. If you could link me to a video of him doing it, that'd be great.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

He does most of his deals in the video at the top of his page - http://danielmadison.co.uk/

He does all deals from the same grip. A modified Erdnase.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

I hate to plug an Ellusionist release on a Theory 11 but Daniel Madison's dvd Mechanic along with his book How to Cheat at Cards has helped all my gambling moves a lot and seeing as he uses or at least used these at actual card tables I would think that his methods could be used to fool average Joes. I find it helps to grip the deck more with the fingers and less with the palm if that makes any sense.

No reason not to. I plug Theory11 products and I work for E. It's a matter of what best suits someone's needs.

I will say that all of my 'gambling' work is an amalgamation of Jason England, Daniel Madison and Erdnase. I try not to look at too many sources because I don't want to become too ... diluted, I guess would be the best term. I take their advice, then I go off and try and try until something works out. I don't use anyone's techniques quite as they say, I always tweak and adjust.

 

[Qs_Pung]

Hi , nice to meet you , i am very happy to see your topic ,
if you want to do something without buckle the bottom , this is a very nice book for you
The art of bottom dealing by Gene Maze , this is the book what am i reading recently

Another one , you also can try use Straddle grip to do bottom deal , your deck are completely locked , so you wont scare your deck will move,

 

[Alex Art]

No reason not to. I plug Theory11 products and I work for E. It's a matter of what best suits someone's needs.

I will say that all of my 'gambling' work is an amalgamation of Jason England, Daniel Madison and Erdnase. I try not to look at too many sources because I don't want to become too ... diluted, I guess would be the best term. I take their advice, then I go off and try and try until something works out. I don't use anyone's techniques quite as they say, I always tweak and adjust.

Seriously???? DM with J.England and Erdnase just doesnt work. With all mine respect to DM, as deseption artist, he`s just not good enough, to stand in the same line with the names you mentioned.

What about Acherman, Nash, Turner???? Even Earl`s "Past Midnight" gives more, then DM "Mechanic".

 

[Qs_Pung]

Seriously???? DM with J.England and Erdnase just doesnt work. With all mine respect to DM, as deseption artist, he`s just not good enough, to stand in the same line with the names you mentioned.

What about Acherman, Nash, Turner???? Even Earl`s "Past Midnight" gives more, then DM "Mechanic".

Erdnase is great on writing a book talk about gambling , Jason England ,without any doubt , he is a great card gambler(or a great Poker Player ) , another thing he is Steve Forte's Student.

I respect D.Madison's X factor( he like a Superstar who play gambling technique in Magic World) , this will suit him more .