'Our Magic': Interpretation of 'Normal Art' & 'High Art'

Tower of Lunatic Meat

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I've had the missus laptop today and I've been viciously reading 'Our Magic' by Maskelyne.

First off. Let me say that the first part regarding 'Art' left me feeling like someone lit my hair on fire. You kind of get this impression that everything you have done in magic, up to the point of reading it; you feel like a hack.
The book talks about: lower art, normal art, and higher art.

Lower art is relatively easy to interpret: Are you using someones rotuine, word for word; mannerism for mannerism. And using it as your own?
If so? Ta-da! Lower art.

I've been reading over the interpretation of Normal and Higher Art a few times now and I'm still confused as to where the line in the sand actually is.

From what I have come to so far: 'Normal Art' would be where you take a routine or a trick, and make some minor adjustments to it.
The part that I'm getting hung up on is the use of magic props.

Props, in magic, can only do 3 things: They work, they don't work, they eventually rust/break down/etc. Very linear in operation.
However, part of 'High Art' is the focus on completely original presentation and having said routines worked on so that, even the first time you perform, said trick and effect work so that only VERY MINOR adjustments need to be made.

With that, I do understand and agree that a skilled mechanic does require years of practice. A part of the definition of 'High Art'.

My question is this (and keep in mind, I only want to perform for at the moment is children's hospitals): As a beginner, I'm using linear props to perform with and I lack real world experience (namely, I'm working with all Tenyo. I'm going to be working on cards and coins relatively soon). However, I have original presentation for all of them and a clear theme to string them all together. I have a clear idea of how I want the effects to happen; nothing complex and easy to understand.

I'm just really hung up on if the utilization of magic props are considered 'Lower Art' (as , I think, you're imitating the exact motions to acquire the result), 'Normal Art' (since you can adjust the presentation and patter beyond instructions), or 'High Art' (Since it is possible to construct a completely original routine. Nothing is impossible in this respect)

Also, is it possible, as a beginner, to perform at a level of 'High Art'? Or do we all start off at a level of 'Normal Art' and depending on our level of dedication to the art (or lack thereof), we can either achieve 'High Art'.

Any help is greatly appreciated!
 
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To be honest, I think you are taking these definitions a little too literally. The definition of art is very grey, like with most words the definition seems to be mostly up to the individual, art in particular as it is a fairly complex concept.

The only person who can really answer your question is the author of the book himself, as this is his idea. The concepts of lower, normal and high art I feel are just phrases he seems to be using to describe varying levels of artistry in a performance; so, in more general terms 'lower art' is not very artistic, 'high art', is much more so. I think he thinks that art in magic is originality (I mostly disagree).

Personally I would consider art perhaps as a mixture of expression, intention and perception, depending on the example of art this varies wildly of course. So when something is shown (performed) and there are certain aspects of this show that exist not physically, on a higher perceptive level and perhaps something is expressed through these aspects that the person viewing the show can understand and interpret, then we have achieved art on some level. A basic example would be dramatic lighting, like something Copperfield would use; there can be something sort of creepy or exciting about the way contrasting lights can make something look, sort of surreal. Copperfield and his set designers know this obviously, and put the lights there (probably some smoke too) to achieve the desired feelings in the audience. The feelings are there, we know they exist, yet we cant touch them, or the concept that they were put there for, yet this example and every other aspect of the performance are what brings it up above just women vanishing from boxes, there is more than that happening, and I feel that is the art of performance (including magic).

Similar idea with paintings, probably one of the most popular forms of art, its more than just pastes or oils applied to fabrics stretched around some wood isn't it?

So with all that in mind, it is possible for a beginner, to perform "High Art"

If you can a hold of it, get Absolute Magic by Derren Brown, apart from being generally excellent there is a fantastic set of mini essays at the back exploring his and other people ideas of the definition of art, and how that definition applies to magic, some of the ideas I discussed above come from that book. I usually wouldn't recommend the book to someone who still considers themselves a "Beginner", however if you are exploring these ideas yourself already, then I think you are ready for it, however a lot of the more magic related concepts in the book probably wouldn't apply that well to children in hospitals.
 

RealityOne

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If you substitute the word "originality" for "art", Maskelyne's definitions become clear. You also have to put those definitions in context of Maskelyne's performance style -- much of what he performed was short skits.

What you are doing is probably "normal art." You've taken a prop and made the presentation yours. There is nothing wrong with that -- you're doing more than 60% of magicians out there.

High art is difficult to attain. It requires a lot of knowledge in both magic and presentation. Honestly, I probably only have two or three routines that I think qualify as high art.
 

Justin.Morris

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Here are my thoughts (probably coming from an uninformed place and likely may miss the intentions of your questions).

You are so ready.
The hardest part is to begin, but you need to go NOW. Go to the hospital as a guest once or twice (it's much easier to get in). Then go through the process of becoming a regular volunteer (getting refrences and all that business). But start now. Pick up the phone and arrange a day and time to come in. Bring your routines - all of them. Be prepared for kids to join you for an hour. Have something to teach them that they can do and practice.

I see high art as having meaning and significant impact. When a magic show makes you think about life. Watching Copperfield fly made me dream about flying. It tapped into a deep part of myself and stirred me.
However a simple painting can inspire so much as well. Skill and completely are not always factors (how many famous paintings have you seen that you could have done? Google 'homage to the square')
Presented well, your magic will be so incredibly impactful because of your context.
You seem like a genuinely kind guy, you are really funny (have you guys seen those tenyo reviews??), and you seem to have a solid grasp of what makes a trick good (again based on your tenyo reviews and other posts like this). I think you are humble but you need to take action. You are ready but you need to start!
A guy like you who spends time with sick kids and empowers them to amaze others, giving them some control of a small part of their life-man that is taking this art to a significantly higher level. The longer you wait, the more kids miss out on the opportunity to meet you and have your magic speak into their lives. The time to start was yesterday. You are going to have to share with us all the lessons you learn so that we too can strive in more ways to make more impact with our magic. (not saying others don't, but we always have much to learn)

Sorry if that missed the point of the thread o_O
 

Tower of Lunatic Meat

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It's all good. I was reading 'Our Magic' and got the fear that, what I was planning to do with the children's hospital show, was just mere 'magic imitation' and wouldn't reflect well for the art of magic. I just don't want to have these ideas, and inadvertently be tarnishing the art of magic is all.
Not wanting that, I wanted to make sure that I have the definitions for 'Normal Art' and 'Higher Art' a bit more defined. I have a tendency to 'get in my head' and over analyze the bejeezus out of things and take them way out of context. This is probably one of those times. But man! 'Our Magic' can be a bit of a scary read, IMO.

And you're right. I do need to get out there. I've been rolling around ideas since I started last year. RealityOne can attest to that (and who has been extremely helpful in reigning in a bunch of those ideas. THANK YOU!).
Part of the issue is that I was planning on doing something for the hospitals in Las Vegas, and then we abruptly moved to Texas. And the hospitals here won't lest me perform going from room-to-room. With the inventory that I had, I couldn't use half of it. So I had to overhaul a good amount of what I was planning. However, the hospitals here HAVE the equipment to stream live performances to EVERY ROOM in the hospital. So I've been constructing 3 different shows with this knowledge. I'm CLOSE to completing one show; further from the other two. I have talked with the head of the media room and he really likes the idea I pitched, so I (sort of) have my foot in the door.

However, at the same time, I don't want to show up with a show that's 'under construction'. I want to be able to show up with everything that, I feel, that the show could possibly have to be successful on day 1 and (hopefully) make fine tune adjustments from there. As opposed to the same argument I use for buying cheap card clips VS. Porper clips:
I don't want to buy something that just works for cheaper, only to turn around and get what I actually need at a later time. So I'd be using up more money and wasting time than if I just waited in the first place.

You're right though, I'd be missing out on performing for kids who really could use magic in their lives right now. And it really sucks being in this sort of position. It's a crappy judgment call. Either I do a show that I'm not comfortable doing now, or wait to be able to have everything ready 'on my terms'.

On top of that with the twins recently starting school, my recent barrage of appointments with the Veterans Administration, the twins birthdays coming up AND Thanksgiving in November. And just December in general. I don't feel like it'd be the best time to establish rapport with the children's hospital just yet (once you complete the process and go through the volunteer briefing, you're now on the clock to perform X amount of volunteer hours per year. I know there's a special exception for 'entertainers', but that conversation can wait until everything settles down).
That and the whole 'being able to afford the rest of the show' and seeing if the 2016 Tenyo line has something to offer. The dust needs to settle a bit before I can start going to the hospital.

It also gives me time to practice and routine a lot more. I'm practicing three of the routines with my daughter.
Where it stands, I have written routines for the 5 tricks I want to do on day 1. I have 4 additional ones that I need to practice with more before I can integrate them into the show. I want there to be modularity in what gets used (the only problem I see with modularity is that you sacrifice a cohesive story by having the ability to mix-and-match, so you're connected only by your show 'theme')

The 'magic table' just got ordered and is sitting at REI as we speak. That was HUGE component that I was waiting on for a while. The next big thing is a jacket--and maybe some alterations. But other than that, I'm missing two Tenyo and 3 handkerchiefs--or cloth that I'm going to turn into handkerchiefs...And some tailoring to said cloth so they don't just go to pieces after some use.

The idea I've had from the start is to ONLY use tricks that I am able to put in their hands and they can do...with a little help from me (of course). They will be the magician. And if everything goes as planned, they will be the magician for the whole hospital to see.
I'm just the 'magicians assistant'.

In conclusion, I just wanted to make sure I had the 'art classifications' correct so that I could make adjustments if necessary. I want to make sure I'm not blinded by grandeur.


Man, that got wordy quick
 

Tower of Lunatic Meat

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To be honest, I think you are taking these definitions a little too literally. The definition of art is very grey, like with most words the definition seems to be mostly up to the individual, art in particular as it is a fairly complex concept.

That's what I like about magic. Having PTSD brought me to a point to where I was thinking in black & white all the time. Magic was the thing that started to get me to think in terms of 'grey'.
However, 'Our Magic' being the first thing I start reading and I take it like gospel. And me being scared as hell to disappoint. Oops.

The only person who can really answer your question is the author of the book himself, as this is his idea. The concepts of lower, normal and high art I feel are just phrases he seems to be using to describe varying levels of artistry in a performance; so, in more general terms 'lower art' is not very artistic, 'high art', is much more so. I think he thinks that art in magic is originality (I mostly disagree).

Personally I would consider art perhaps as a mixture of expression, intention and perception, depending on the example of art this varies wildly of course. So when something is shown (performed) and there are certain aspects of this show that exist not physically, on a higher perceptive level and perhaps something is expressed through these aspects that the person viewing the show can understand and interpret, then we have achieved art on some level. A basic example would be dramatic lighting, like something Copperfield would use; there can be something sort of creepy or exciting about the way contrasting lights can make something look, sort of surreal. Copperfield and his set designers know this obviously, and put the lights there (probably some smoke too) to achieve the desired feelings in the audience. The feelings are there, we know they exist, yet we cant touch them, or the concept that they were put there for, yet this example and every other aspect of the performance are what brings it up above just women vanishing from boxes, there is more than that happening, and I feel that is the art of performance (including magic).

That's a helluva example. And provides a lot of 'thought-candy' on the subject of perception and how one would want their performance to be interpreted.
I'm now trying to think of aspects I haven't taken much into accountability and trying to apply them for a close-up show without going cliche...Or breaking the bank on a backdrop ;)

Similar idea with paintings, probably one of the most popular forms of art, its more than just pastes or oils applied to fabrics stretched around some wood isn't it?

So with all that in mind, it is possible for a beginner, to perform "High Art"

I took an art interpretation class in 2012 and it REALLY opened my eyes on how even the simplest of paintings can be viewed, as well as provide the conveyed meanings of some of the 'minimalistic and simple' paintings. That class was amazing. And yes, I completely understand the need of 'under the radar' nuances. I just may not 'get them' the first time around :)

If you can a hold of it, get Absolute Magic by Derren Brown, apart from being generally excellent there is a fantastic set of mini essays at the back exploring his and other people ideas of the definition of art, and how that definition applies to magic, some of the ideas I discussed above come from that book. I usually wouldn't recommend the book to someone who still considers themselves a "Beginner", however if you are exploring these ideas yourself already, then I think you are ready for it, however a lot of the more magic related concepts in the book probably wouldn't apply that well to children in hospitals.

I will add that to the quickly increasing list of literature I need to obtain. And even if just a part of the book is all I would be getting it for, that's perfectly fine with me. Especially since I'm in the process of scrapping together the funds for a couple books that I'm looking to acquire only for a section or a couple of chapters.
 

Tower of Lunatic Meat

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I wanted to combine with WyattSB's and RealityOne's posts together, but there is a 10,000 character limit on posts in the Theory11 forums.

Also found out that there is a one limit 'down time' between postings.

The forum has limits!

If you substitute the word "originality" for "art", Maskelyne's definitions become clear. You also have to put those definitions in context of Maskelyne's performance style -- much of what he performed was short skits.

Just so I have it correctly, a short skit would be utilizing multiple effects in one routine?

What you are doing is probably "normal art." You've taken a prop and made the presentation yours. There is nothing wrong with that -- you're doing more than 60% of magicians out there.

All right. And yay!

Get ready for this:

I kept getting hung up on the props because it seems like he completely admonishes the usage of mechanisms. But I believe that cards, coins, and other utilitarian items would also fall under the same category, but aren't admonished because there's a myriad of ways to use them. However, I believe props also have a sort of utilitarian aspect for performance purposes. But then I'm thinking that he's primarily addressing the fact that props don't necessarily utilize 'tools of the trade' that would qualify someone as a 'skilled technician'. But later on, he addresses audience and entertaining. And it seems like that as long as you are able to utilize proper showmanship, the end result is what matters. Which meant to me that regardless of what technical skill one does have, if you are able to display proper showmanship and provide quality entertainment; then isn't that all that matters?

High art is difficult to attain. It requires a lot of knowledge in both magic and presentation. Honestly, I probably only have two or three routines that I think qualify as high art.

Wow. That's both amazing that you have some high art routines, and frightening that the bar is really high!
 

RealityOne

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Just so I have it correctly, a short skit would be utilizing multiple effects in one routine?

For Masklyne and Devant, some used multiple effects, others used a skit to set up the effect. Google "Will, the Witch and the Watchman" and Devant's "Mascot Moth."

I kept getting hung up on the props because it seems like he completely admonishes the usage of mechanisms. But I believe that cards, coins, and other utilitarian items would also fall under the same category, but aren't admonished because there's a myriad of ways to use them. However, I believe props also have a sort of utilitarian aspect for performance purposes.

The danger with props is that they get all the credit. If you see someone disappear into a shiny box with stars on it, you assume that "the box is the trick." If it looks like it came from a magic shop, the audience will assume that they can do the effect if they had the prop. Now, with that being said, I think your character and presentation overcomes that because you have them actually do the magic using the prop with your reaction being as surprised as theirs. With other props, magicians have to prove that they are "ordinary" (even if they are not) and good magicians do that by showing the audience rather than telling them.

Wow. That's both amazing that you have some high art routines, and frightening that the bar is really high!

Those routines have taken YEARS to develop. Mostly because it took performing Low Art and developing a lot of Normal Art routines. Most of what I do is adaptations -- taking something and making itmy own. The routines I consider High Art involve my own presentation of classic magic like the egg bag, linking rings and cups & balls. Essentially, I put together the various sleights into my own routine with my own presentation.

@Justin.Morris is right. You need to perform your show. A show never becomes perfect in design or practice. It only becomes perfect through performance.
 

Justin.Morris

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On the side note of performing in Hospitals, I have no clue what the hospitals are like in the US or in your area, but the University hospital here is also a Stollery children's hospital so the setup may be different. Here they have a floor of the hospital designated just to pediatrics. It's colorful and fun and they have an area that's open periodically for kids and families to come that has a ton of toys, a sandbox, painting, coloring crafts games etc. This is where they usually have special guests come, like singers, or sports teams etc. They also have a group of regular volunteers who roam through there and by the rooms that sing, or bring in animals etc. Each 'wing' of rooms has an open area with some seats and a TV which would also be a great place to do magic. The rules are the same here - you can't go room to room, but they are allowed to come out or invite you in. Only the regular volunteers or celebrities get to really go in the rooms when invited.

Basically, you should just go and hang out with people.
Bring your magic, but go and spend time with them. The TV idea is okay, but there is something far far more meaningful when you just are with them. In my vocation as a pastor, we call this the ministry of presence. You being with them, listening to their stories, and then having some fun with them - man, that is SO powerful. And you are just being yourself. Show off your Tenyo to them - they will love it! Treat it like I came over for a coffee and you took me through your magic room. You can have a 20-30 minute presentation of tricks ready for if there's a big group, but otherwise just have fun showing them your tricks that you brought. I wish that our hospital had a magician doing that when we were stuck in there for 8 months. There were a couple of guys who did the show thing - and that's great and entertaining, but I think you have a really beautifully unique setup that you can bring. And being more with them rather than doing a big presentation is both easier on the nerves and much much more meaningful for the kids.

For the big show, you have a big script, and beats, and your nerves are through the roof, and all the eyes are watching you expectantly. But if you show up with a bag full of fun things and you pull them out and say "hey you have to see this -" that is so much more casual and fun for everyone (and note that you don't have to pull things out randomly - you can still be very strategic, but to them it appears more off the cuff). It's far easier for you to start too because you can ask them questions like how long they have been in hospital, or what brought them in etc. Everyone has a story and would love someone to listen and care.
"Hey My name is Brett, I'm a magician. What's your name? ..... Nice to meet you. How long have you been here for?..... Hopefully things continue to get better for you. It must be hard to pass the time some days. Hey, I've got something here that you might find really interesting. but you need to be really really careful [pull out a crystal cleaver sword]. Seriously it can cut right through things without even leaving a mark let me show you...."
A casual approach like this lets you bridge the nerves of starting by directing attention to them first through questions (make sure you listen!) which will allow you to start easier. Show them a few things and wrap up. Say good bye and move to another wing. If more kids come out then keep going. The staff will have experience with other volunteers and where the best places to go would be and they can direct you (I think technically someone would have to be with you at all times until you went through a screening process.

You can do this, and you are going to ROCK it.

/end rabbit trail.
 

Tower of Lunatic Meat

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On the side note of performing in Hospitals, I have no clue what the hospitals are like in the US or in your area, but the University hospital here is also a Stollery children's hospital so the setup may be different. Here they have a floor of the hospital designated just to pediatrics. It's colorful and fun and they have an area that's open periodically for kids and families to come that has a ton of toys, a sandbox, painting, coloring crafts games etc. This is where they usually have special guests come, like singers, or sports teams etc. They also have a group of regular volunteers who roam through there and by the rooms that sing, or bring in animals etc. Each 'wing' of rooms has an open area with some seats and a TV which would also be a great place to do magic. The rules are the same here - you can't go room to room, but they are allowed to come out or invite you in. Only the regular volunteers or celebrities get to really go in the rooms when invited.

Well, here in AMERICA...I can't even type that with a straight face.

No, it sounds very similar to what you're describing. Except the sandbox part. I do know they have a playroom type area at the hospital I'm looking at. I'll have to check and see how that will work out. Namely to see if someone needs to be there t supervise me to make sure I don't act a fool. OR something along those lines.
I know I'll would have 'eyes on me' during a broadcast, I'm not sure how it would work afterwards. Looks like I need to make some phone calls!

Basically, you should just go and hang out with people.
Bring your magic, but go and spend time with them. The TV idea is okay, but there is something far far more meaningful when you just are with them. In my vocation as a pastor, we call this the ministry of presence. You being with them, listening to their stories, and then having some fun with them - man, that is SO powerful. And you are just being yourself. Show off your Tenyo to them - they will love it! Treat it like I came over for a coffee and you took me through your magic room. You can have a 20-30 minute presentation of tricks ready for if there's a big group, but otherwise just have fun showing them your tricks that you brought. I wish that our hospital had a magician doing that when we were stuck in there for 8 months. There were a couple of guys who did the show thing - and that's great and entertaining, but I think you have a really beautifully unique setup that you can bring. And being more with them rather than doing a big presentation is both easier on the nerves and much much more meaningful for the kids.

Part of why I've been on the show kick is that I'm terribly anxious. With the show, I can script what I say and do MONTHS out at a time and can practice it relentlessly. I'm in control of the action (another side effect of PTSD: The massive need to be in control of something).
Out of that environment, and it's a whole 'nother ballgame. The whole 'one your toes' thing.
Sounds funny, but I've barred myself up from the outside world due to the PTSD for a couple years. Since we moved to Texas in May, I'm just starting to be more comfortable outside of the home more and speak with people again; trying to learn how be 'regular'-ish again!

I am looking up more on ministry of presence and just. Especially since I haven't thought outside of the show in a while due to the massive appeal of 'being in control of the environment'. But I need to get out of my confort zone in order to get better at this. Sounds like I need to do some impromptu stuff in public (I'm thinking check-out cashiers) to work up to being in a playroom of kids and parents.

This is getting to be a much bigger thing than I anticipated!

I do have a few Tenyo (and non-Tenyo. Whuuuuuut?) that would work perfectly for sitting down and shooting the breeze.

Has the 'reluctance to perform when the situation arises' happened to anyone? Is this typical when starting out?

For the big show, you have a big script, and beats, and your nerves are through the roof, and all the eyes are watching you expectantly. But if you show up with a bag full of fun things and you pull them out and say "hey you have to see this -" that is so much more casual and fun for everyone (and note that you don't have to pull things out randomly - you can still be very strategic, but to them it appears more off the cuff). It's far easier for you to start too because you can ask them questions like how long they have been in hospital, or what brought them in etc. Everyone has a story and would love someone to listen and care.
"Hey My name is Brett, I'm a magician. What's your name? ..... Nice to meet you. How long have you been here for?..... Hopefully things continue to get better for you. It must be hard to pass the time some days. Hey, I've got something here that you might find really interesting. but you need to be really really careful [pull out a crystal cleaver sword]. Seriously it can cut right through things without even leaving a mark let me show you...."
A casual approach like this lets you bridge the nerves of starting by directing attention to them first through questions (make sure you listen!) which will allow you to start easier. Show them a few things and wrap up. Say good bye and move to another wing. If more kids come out then keep going. The staff will have experience with other volunteers and where the best places to go would be and they can direct you (I think technically someone would have to be with you at all times until you went through a screening process.

You can do this, and you are going to ROCK it.

/end rabbit trail.

I know that hospitals in the states does touch on things you can ask and can say to people there. I don't know of all the restrictions, but I can't imagine them being too difficult to work around (on top of me being a 'Nervous Nellie). But this is something that I COMPLETELY neglected and didn't think was going to be a factor in what I should be thinking and doing at the children's hospital. I really appreciate you bringing it up!

I WANT to work this! I just need to 'mentally prepare' myself for working on my toes. Preparing myself for unpredictability.
 

Tower of Lunatic Meat

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Thank you, everyone, for the responses!

I felt that, 'if all magicians worth their salt operate on levels of art, then I better start thinking and looking at what I do as well! I don't want to waste my time!'

I want to take magic a lot more seriously than past hobbies in which there was no growth or advancement (Diecast car collecting, Magic: The Gathering...nerd stuff!).
I can rest easier and not beat myself up over it.

I will need to re-read the whole thing over again so I'm much less panicky when I read it, but I'll read some other books and previously acquired PDFs first, just to take a breather from it.

Thanks again!
 
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