Thoughts on thoughts

[Jake.g.c]

Hey everyone, my names Jake and I wanted to start a REALLY GENERAL discussion. I've been into the world of magic for about 5 years now and a lot of my thoughts have changed over these years.
When I first started I had an obsession with learning how everything was done, then I was all about seeing people react and putting smiles on faces and wonder in the eyes of participants, now I don't know what I'm here for, exactly, but I think it's for the moves and sleights.
I've moved away from terms like "magic", "magician", etc. to things like "sleights", "deception", "lying", (you get the idea).
My point is that I stopped being magical because that gave all the credit to the magic and mystery and I've become more about exposing small bits so that I can be appreciated for the time and effort I put in.
I just wanted to hear some thoughts about this, have any of you shifted ideology like myself? What do you get out of doing what we all enjoy? Do you think magic or the magician should get the credit? I'd love to hear from you all!
Cheers!

- Jake

 

[Gabriel Z.]

I think that in magic as in all other art forms you are always evolving. Whether you are a hobbyist or professional magician you are always learning something new. I think that maybe you are looking at the bigger picture too often and not focusing in on the details and all the little stuff that goes into magic. I am always shifting ideology almost on a monthly basis with every word that my brain registers from books that I read. I get a lot out of performing card magic even for myself(which at times is all I need). I think that magicians make up the world that makes magic so both should get credit. Hope this helps.

 

[Rev]

Hey everyone, my names Jake and I wanted to start a REALLY GENERAL discussion. I've been into the world of magic for about 5 years now and a lot of my thoughts have changed over these years.
When I first started I had an obsession with learning how everything was done, then I was all about seeing people react and putting smiles on faces and wonder in the eyes of participants, now I don't know what I'm here for, exactly, but I think it's for the moves and sleights.
I've moved away from terms like "magic", "magician", etc. to things like "sleights", "deception", "lying", (you get the idea).
My point is that I stopped being magical because that gave all the credit to the magic and mystery and I've become more about exposing small bits so that I can be appreciated for the time and effort I put in.
I just wanted to hear some thoughts about this, have any of you shifted ideology like myself? What do you get out of doing what we all enjoy? Do you think magic or the magician should get the credit? I'd love to hear from you all!
Cheers!

- Jake

God, my point of view will shift depending on what I working on at any given time...

Interesting that you raise the ideas about 'magic getting all the credit' and not the magician. I guess that depends on how you present it. Are you the one 'doing the magic' or is the magic happening 'to you' (i.e. it would happen anyway)?

Of course, it's 2016 and do any of us still actually believe the audience is going to buy into 'magic' as a premise?

So what's the other side of the coin? Display of skill? Does that mean we should perform flourishes more in our performances? Or should we continue to not do any overt displays of skill, but still claim we have hidden skills? Can you present a totally hands of card trick such as 'Miraskill' and still pass it of as a demonstration of a hidden skill?

Just rattling off questions here more than anything. I'm definitely not saying I have the answers.

One thing I do know, is that I have recently stopped referring to myself as a magician. But I also refuse to adopt another douche bag title such as 'deception artist'. Therefore, I have taken a leaf out of John Bannon's book and now refer to myself simply as 'someone who does card tricks.' Now, that may seem underwhelming in magician's eyes, but I like John's reasoning, quoted below:

"Who wants to be a 'magician'? There are too many bad connotations to overcome. Birthday parties. Tuxedos. Clowns. Yuk-'em up yahoos in cocktail lounges. Can you make my wife disappear? No, the clean one. But people don't have preconceived notion of what 'doing card tricks' is all about"

I like the idea of this thread. Let's keep it going. Makes a nice change from the usual 'what's the best...' and 'here's a clip of Blaine from Youtube, where can I learn it' type threads...

Rev

 

[Jake.g.c]

God, my point of view will shift depending on what I working on at any given time...

Interesting that you raise the ideas about 'magic getting all the credit' and not the magician. I guess that depends on how you present it. Are you the one 'doing the magic' or is the magic happening 'to you' (i.e. it would happen anyway)?

Of course, it's 2016 and do any of us still actually believe the audience is going to buy into 'magic' as a premise?

So what's the other side of the coin? Display of skill? Does that mean we should perform flourishes more in our performances? Or should we continue to not do any overt displays of skill, but still claim we have hidden skills? Can you present a totally hands of card trick such as 'Miraskill' and still pass it of as a demonstration of a hidden skill?

Just rattling off questions here more than anything. I'm definitely not saying I have the answers.

One thing I do know, is that I have recently stopped referring to myself as a magician. But I also refuse to adopt another douche bag title such as 'deception artist'. Therefore, I have taken a leaf out of John Bannon's book and now refer to myself simply as 'someone who does card tricks.' Now, that may seem underwhelming in magician's eyes, but I like John's reasoning, quoted below:

"Who wants to be a 'magician'? There are too many bad connotations to overcome. Birthday parties. Tuxedos. Clowns. Yuk-'em up yahoos in cocktail lounges. Can you make my wife disappear? No, the clean one. But people don't have preconceived notion of what 'doing card tricks' is all about"

I like the idea of this thread. Let's keep it going. Makes a nice change from the usual 'what's the best...' and 'here's a clip of Blaine from Youtube, where can I learn it' type threads...

Rev

I did want to start something a bit different and I think it will get there soon. But the idea of being "someone who does card tricks" is too bland to get any interest, "deception artist" is somewhat pretentious, and "magician" has become too cheesy and cartoonish.

"Doing card tricks" vs "demonstrating magic" vs "demonstrating invisible skills" is a fun thing to think about (at least for me). It definately depends on the character of the performer and I'm sure there is no right or wrong answers. I'm really curious about what philosophy people are behind.

I'm excited for this post lol

- Jake

 

[TylerScottIllusionist]

I watched a discussion similar to this topic on YouTube and they were discussing the issue with being labeled as a "magician" since there is such a negative stigma behind it. I have seen this personally when I was performing and someone rolled their eyes when they heard there was "a guy who does magic tricks".

The people in the video said that they referred to themselves as visual effect artists which I came to like the sound of that. What do you guys think of that label and what are some of the after effects of being labeled as such?

-Tyler

 

[JChili]

I've been doing magic since September and I wouldn't have started if my friend hasn't shown me Here then there. I went and looked it up, couldn't find it, but started looking up beginner tricks. At first I was in it just to figure out how stuff was done, but now I'm in it for entertaining people. I like to have fun with my magic, but I don't have fun unless my spectators are having as much or more fun. Just my point of view.

 

[RealityOne]

I think that how I have viewed magic has changed over the years. Right now, my interest is part academic and part developing new performance routines. The academic part is reading books - lots of them - and learning hstory and variations of effects. My reading is focused on historic magic books like Greater Magic, Modern Magic, More Magic, and Impromptu Magic; periodicals like Jinx, Genii, Apocalypse, Hirophant, Tailsman and Collected Almanac; Single trick analysis like Out of All Worlds, Impostress Princess, Biro's Linking Rings, Encyclopedia of Spongeball Magic and (if anyone has a copy I could borrow) Ambitious Omnibus; as well as books on theory and performance by Neale, Parr, Haas, McBride, Burger, Ortiz, Webber and McCabe. The performance part is developing my new show and working out new and original routines for classics like Egg Bag, Linking Rings, Billard Balls, Cups and Balls, Miser's Dream and Zombie Ball.

Psrt of the original post seems to remind me of the "too perfect" theory - that magic cannot be too perfect but should be designed to give the magician credit. My opinion is along the lines of Tommy Wonder's essay in Books of Wonder. I also am intrigued by Tamaritz's theories in The Magic Way.

As for how I present myself, I am a magician and I do magic. However, my magic is, as one spectator said, "a different kind of magic." My magic is not presented with what Eugene Burger calls "narrating the adventures of the props in the magicians hands." Rather, my presentation is fillled with stories, humor, puns and audience interaction. Think a combination of Tamaritz, Henning, Dr. Phil and Richard Simmons. I ask the audience to join me for a tour of my imagination, to come with me and play with the impossible. At the end of the day, the audience doesnt care how it is done -- as one spectator said, "When I see magic, I always try to figure out how it is done, with your show, I dont want to know - I just want to remember that I saw something wonderfully impossible."

 

[mclintock]

Rev, I agree with almost everything you said, however I think the tuxedo, clown, magician type is becoming less of a stereotype, and I think a part of that was the film Now You See Me, whether you liked the movie or not, it displayed magicians in a more "human" way, if you understand what I mean.

 

[Rev]

But the idea of being "someone who does card tricks" is too bland to get any interest, "deception artist" is somewhat pretentious, and "magician" has become too cheesy and cartoonish.

I'm excited for this post lol

- Jake

I don't think 'a guy who does card tricks' is bland at all. Again, to reference John Bannon's reasoning, he states that the public don't have any preconception of what that means, therefore, to the public at least, it is intriguing. As magicians, we see more than our fair share of card tricks so it may seem boring to us, but not to the public. However, it also makes it completely clear what you do, even if it doesn't fully define it. If anything, it undersells it, meaning if you're good, you will exceed their expectations! Whether or not you think lowering their expectations right at the start is a good thing is up to you, but i think it can be very disarming.

Of course, this is just my thinking, so not dismissing what you say at all. Your points are also totally valid and would love to hear more.

The people in the video said that they referred to themselves as visual effect artists which I came to like the sound of that.

-Tyler

See, I don't like that. It's too vague and in all honesty, people are going to ask what exactly that means. You could use that as an 'in' for performing, but as soon as you vanish the coin (or whatever) people are just going to say 'Oh, so you're a magician?'. That, or when you say 'visual effects artist' they'll think you work in TV or movie special effects, and will then probably be disappointed when you crack out a magic trick...

I like 'I do card tricks' as it defines exactly what I do without any of the 'magician' stigma (e.g. rabbits out of the hat, sawing in half, make my wife disappear etc). It is also vague enough that it in the public's eye it could mean anything from playing card juggling/flourishes to card cheating, and everything in between. All they know for sure is that it involves a deck of cards, so they will be ready you decide to bring out a deck and perform.

Of course, this is art so I guess there is no right or wrong way to view it.

Rev, I agree with almost everything you said, however I think the tuxedo, clown, magician type is becoming less of a stereotype, and I think a part of that was the film Now You See Me, whether you liked the movie or not, it displayed magicians in a more "human" way, if you understand what I mean.

You could be right. However, I do sometimes think that the stereotype is now swinging the other way. To reference another movie, 'The Amazing Burt Wonderstone': Steve Carell's character is the cheesy, yester-year magic act that just needs to hurry up and die out. However, Jim Carrey's character is the overly dramatic, douche bag street magician. Neither are shown in a good light. May be the Blaine/Angel-alike street performer is now another stereotype we really need to avoid. Add to that the 'psychological illusionist' stereotype. Is that also overplayed?

Of course, I'm not dismissing Blaine or Angel. Their styles are their own and were totally unique when they first turned up on the scene, but it's the constant imitation from other, lesser magicians that starts to make it into a stereotype. Also, it's easy to forget that Blaine's first special was on TV 16 years ago, yet we still seem to think of that as the 'modern magician'! A lot has changed in 16 years, so may the street magic thing has become 'old hat' as well.

Good Discussion guys.

Rev

 

[Jake.g.c]

Thank you all for your thoughts and contributions! I'm starting to wonder if a new name/label will be coming around for (street)magicians. I know a lot of people who dislike the magician title but don't know what else to call themselves.
This has become a very interesting discussion and I'm enjoying the intellectual contributions from you guys!
I do want to change the topic a bit, some of you have already answered, but I'd like to know WHY you guys do magic and how you got into it. If yo

 

[Gabriel Z.]

I do card magic because I love it. I got into card magic about 2013 the same time I joined theory11 maybe a little before. I am especially fascinated with false table shuffles and cuts. The ability to have a deck in new deck order and apparently shuffle them, and have the deck retained in new deck order is fascinating to me. I particularly love The Gamblers False Cut or Up The Ladder. I actually recently entered the last Saturday Night Contest in record time and any way here is the video. I did not win but I enjoyed every minute of making the video.

 

[Timewise64]

I do magic for kids because they believe in magic! And for me, that is the essence of life. As I get older, I realize that kids are correct, and I too now again believe in magic! If you do not believe it, you need to stop and look around you....it is all magical! As others have said you have to 'evolve' or better said 'revolve' back to this belief.

 

[Rev]

Why do I do magic? Because I love it.

Why do I love it? I really have no idea!

I'm not much of an extrovert. I'm not shy by any means and will perform when asked, but I don't demand attention, so I find it odd that I seem to gravitate towards interests which should really require a more extroverted personality (magic, juggling, drums, playing music). I enjoy the studying, writing and sharing ideas much more than the actual performing. Magic books fascinate me as well and have been a big part of keeping magic in my life.

Also, I was always creative as a child and enjoyed things like drawing, film making etc. But as I grew older I gravitated to more logical things (I studied Biology at university and now work in corporate finance). I think the reason why magic has stuck around for the last twenty years is because it's one of the few artistic/creative pursuits that also has a problem solving element to it.

Rev

 

[Rev]

I am especially fascinated with false table shuffles and cuts. The ability to have a deck in new deck order and apparently shuffle them, and have the deck retained in new deck order is fascinating to me. I particularly love The Gamblers False Cut or Up The Ladder.

I love it when people have very specific obsessions, and that's a good one!

Rev

 

[Moniker]

Do you think magic or the magician should get the credit?

I believe it depends if you MADE the trick. If you didn't..it should be the " magic " or the knowledge you learned from magic. If you made it, it should be the Magician.

However...I don't like to call myself a Magician.. More of something like:

" I'm good at cards..Not too good, just basic cuts and shuffles. " -SNIFF-

I don't like to be known for what I do.. Or NO ONE would play Poker or anything with me, you know? But if I am performing.. ( Every once in a while I do street magic ). I like to refer to myself as a street performer, I guess..

I guess most people believe that there is no real magic..Just tricks. In a sense..I guess that is true, but I like to make people believe there is magic..

They say:

" There's no such thing as magic. "

" ANYONE can do it, IF they practice enough. "

" It's just a trick. "

I like doing tricks on skeptics..The more they don't believe it..the better. I let them fully examine the deck..and IF I use gimmicks or gaff cards, I can quickly put it away without them noticing.

They're usually left..totally dumbfounded..with a blank expression, just staring..And I just walk away. To me, that's just the reaction I was looking for...

 

[Tower of Lunatic Meat]

Why do I do magic? To provide a moment of wonder. To have people forget and suspend everything they know and carry in their world, and just for a moment, forget it all and participate in doing something impossible.

I want to perform for those who need magic in their lives: hospitals, shelters, retirement homes, etc. That is what I would enjoy doing.
I think the experience should be more about THEM and less about me doing something magical. It should be them doing something magical. They should get as much credit as we can allow through our presentation and the journey we can lead them on.

 

[mclintock]

Brett "The Pure of Heart Magician" Hurley! *cheering and applause*

 

[RealityOne]

I do magic for kids because they believe in magic! And for me, that is the essence of life. As I get older, I realize that kids are correct, and I too now again believe in magic! If you do not believe it, you need to stop and look around you....it is all magical! As others have said you have to 'evolve' or better said 'revolve' back to this belief.

TW~ Well said. I agree completely.

Why do I do magic? Because I love it.

Why do I love it? I really have no idea!

I'm not much of an extrovert. I'm not shy by any means and will perform when asked, but I don't demand attention, so I find it odd that I seem to gravitate towards interests which should really require a more extroverted personality (magic, juggling, drums, playing music). I enjoy the studying, writing and sharing ideas much more than the actual performing. Magic books fascinate me as well and have been a big part of keeping magic in my life.

Also, I was always creative as a child and enjoyed things like drawing, film making etc. But as I grew older I gravitated to more logical things (I studied Biology at university and now work in corporate finance). I think the reason why magic has stuck around for the last twenty years is because it's one of the few artistic/creative pursuits that also has a problem solving element to it.

Rev

Rev~ I could have written that post. I'm a mild mannered tax attorney by day and the performance and study of magic probably is my only creative pursuit. I also agree that the study of magic has an interesting intelectual / problem solving element.

Do you think magic or the magician should get the credit?

I believe it depends if you MADE the trick. If you didn't..it should be the " magic " or the knowledge you learned from magic. If you made it, it should be the Magician.

I think that is a false dichotomy. Why doesn't the magician get the credit for performing the magic?

I'm not sure what you mean by "made" the trick. If you mean "created" the trick, then I don't agree at all. From a spectator's perspective who created the effect really doesnt matter, so it shouldn't matter to the performer. Rather, what should matter is whether the audience is entertained.

I guess most people believe that there is no real magic..Just tricks. In a sense..I guess that is true, but I like to make people believe there is magic..

They say:

" There's no such thing as magic. "

" ANYONE can do it, IF they practice enough. "

" It's just a trick. "

There is magic in our lives. Have you ever seen a sunrise from the top of a mountain? Have you ever held a newborn baby? Have you ever made someone smile just by complimenting them? Have you ever made someone laugh uncontrollably?

Or maybe, think of it this way. Movies are a series of photographs shown in rapid sequence. It is an illusion. But sitting in the theatre, not only is the illusion of movement real, the illusion of what is happening in the film is real. The Incredible Hulk, Ironman and Thor all exist... even for that moment. It is the illusion of belief.

Can we make our magic create real magic and touch people's emotions -- regardless of whether those emotions are astonishment, joy, or something deeper? Can we perform in a way to have people not care that what we do is the illusion of magic?

I guess most people believe that there is no real magic..Just tricks. In a sense..I guess that is true, but I like to make people believe there is magic..

They say:

" There's no such thing as magic. "

" ANYONE can do it, IF they practice enough. "

" It's just a trick. "

I like doing tricks on skeptics..The more they don't believe it..the better. I let them fully examine the deck..and IF I use gimmicks or gaff cards, I can quickly put it away without them noticing.

They're usually left..totally dumbfounded..with a blank expression, just staring..And I just walk away. To me, that's just the reaction I was looking for...

That sounds like you present your magic as a puzzle or a game. You think you role is to fool the spectator and the spectator thinks their role is to figure it out. Neither outcome is good -- either your spectator feel slike a fool or you feel like you have figured out how you do it.

Remember, our goal is to entertain... not to fool.