Bottom deal

[Noctis]

Hi

I have been practicing bottom dealing for a couple of months. I´m learning from the book of Erdnase, and i have trouble with something. I don´t have any trouble with pushing off the bottom card, the trouble is, when i have to do the move?

Erdnase says that when the left thumb move the top card to be dealed, the third finger push off the bottom card to be in the same relative position of the top card and take it. But, assuming that a game is with 4 players and the bottom cards are for me, when i deal for me it´s when i have to do the move? But the thing is that it´s impossible push the bottom card out that fast, precisely when i have to deal for me. Another trouble its that if i push off the bottom card before the moment that i have to deal for me, it´s obvious for my right side.

What i have to do?


I would be very grateful for an answer.

 

[AmberGraci]

It really is just practice, practice, and more practice. The bottom deal is a move that takes years to master, I'd recommend getting a three way mirror if you don't have one already, I've found it to be super helpful when practicing. Erdnase is a great resource, but I think it could also be helpful to look into multiple resources. Jason England's download on the bottom deal is really great, and it's often hard to understand the nuances entirely when only reading about them.

The bottom is arguably one of the most difficult moves to perform well, it can be supremely frustrating when trying to practice, but keep at it and you'll get it. Best of luck!

 

[LonelyShark]

Hi,

I agree with AmberGraci. I presume it's not exactly the kind of help/reply you expect. But there's no secret. I'm not an expert, I do not master the bottom deal – far from it. I practice everyday. It took me months just to find my own grip, the one that suits me. Like I wrote in a previous discussion about the bottom deal ; half the time, I practice with a metronome. It helps me to slow down and work through challenging moves. We learn to walk before to run. Rhythm and pace is important if you want to (bottom) deal casually.
I have been playing guitar for 25 years. Practicing with a metronome is arguably the most effective way to improve rhythmic and technical skills in a fastest and efficient way. That's why I use this method to work the bottom deal. It doesn't mean you should train the same way. But it could help you like it helps me.

Jason England's tutorial is great, because he teaches you how to learn, gives you the good practice and baselines.

Keep it up.

PS : “The strongest of all warriors are these two — Time and Patience.” L. Tolstoï - War & Peace

 

[Ryan Malone]

Try and hold the cards in the mechanics bottom dealing grip also try to losing action a few cards before you deal the bottom card also it just comes down to practice the bottom is a couple of year move and if you dont already have it get Jason Englands download on the bottom deal hope that helps.

 

[Noctis]

It helps me a lot. Thanks for the advices

 

[MarcoLostSomething]

Don't prepare in advance, or you will be stuck with the top deal (but that can be done, and there's a different technique, see the LePaul Bottom Deal).

When you need to bottom deal you push the top card, and as your right hand approaches the deck you can buckle the bottom card.
So when you reach the card you can peel off the bottom and push back the top card.

The key points are to stay in rythm with the others (so don't get slower as you buckle), and to keep a narrow buckle (so you don't knuckle flash).

 

[ladexterite]

When you're about to deal the bottom card, the Movement of the top card and the bottom needs to be congruent in a way that it seems that you are about take the top card. Practice is key here. The Bottom Deal takes months to do and years to perfect. Practice everyday. Practice with a new deck, a used deck and a beaten deck, Just so you could get a feel of the cards themselves in any situation.

 

[quinnhughes]

As someone who has also practiced the BD, and had the same problem as you (couldn't get the bottom card out of my hand, but I sure as hell could drop all the other cards), I will say what helped me. I got Daniel Madison's Mechanic. His grip of the deal, mixed with how I interpreted Erdnase's, gave me my current grip. He also teaches the act of neck tying. That hides the move a bit.

When you're about to deal the bottom card, the Movement of the top card and the bottom needs to be congruent in a way that it seems that you are about take the top card. Practice is key here. The Bottom Deal takes months to do and years to perfect. Practice everyday. Practice with a new deck, a used deck and a beaten deck, Just so you could get a feel of the cards themselves in any situation.

As much as I agree with the philosophy of using cards of all conditions, Erdnase mentions that a new student to a move should use a new deck because the slickness helps with the sliding of the bottom card. In this case, a fresh deck is what helped me. That said, I do think that ONCE you've developed the BD consistently with a new deck, mess around with old and new decks to get that universal feel.

 

[Joey144]

But the thing is that it´s impossible push the bottom card out that fast, precisely when i have to deal for me.

No, it is not impossible. As hard as it sounds, you're just not able to do it because you haven't practised enough. Don't rush it. The Bottom Deal takes time to learn. Take your time to learn the move properly. LonelySharks advice on using a metronome is a great tip!

Try and hold the cards in the mechanics bottom dealing grip also try to losing action a few cards before you deal the bottom card also it just comes down to practice the bottom is a couple of year move and if you dont already have it get Jason Englands download on the bottom deal hope that helps.

I don't know what to think of this. Why would you recommend someone to change to a Mechanics Grip if he can't deal properly from a standard Erdnase Grip?
Maybe you should re-watch Jason Englands download because he strongly advices against skipping the old Erdnase Grip.

I got Daniel Madison's Mechanic. His grip of the deal, mixed with how I interpreted Erdnase's, gave me my current grip. He also teaches the act of neck tying. That hides the move a bit.

The Grip that Madison teaches is a messed up version of the Gene Maze Grip. He added the ridiculously exaggerated neck tying because he can't do the deal properly.

 

[LonelyShark]

Practice with a new deck, a used deck and a beaten deck, Just so you could get a feel of the cards themselves in any situation.

It's a great tip. Personally I do this with every sleights of hand.

About Daniel Madison's bottom deal... I don't like it because hand moves are exaggerated and, according to me, it doesn't look really natural. However, in my opinion, he gives an interesting approach : use the same grip for every deals (fair, bottom, greek, 2nd...)
The way he uses ring and pinky fingers to push-off the bottom card (and thus avoid knuckle flash) inspired me a lot.

 

[FunkyBottoms]

As someone who has also practiced the BD, and had the same problem as you (couldn't get the bottom card out of my hand, but I sure as hell could drop all the other cards), I will say what helped me. I got Daniel Madison's Mechanic. His grip of the deal, mixed with how I interpreted Erdnase's, gave me my current grip.

Snipped for brevity but I couldn't have said it better myself.

This guy, he knows.

 

[Noctis]

Hi everybody

I´ve been practicing the bottom deal and i have only a problem: the knucleflash. I have practiced in front a mirror and the only thing that betrays that i´m doing the bottom deal is the knucle flash. When i push out the bottom card with the third finger, it looks exaclty like the Fig.23 at the Expert at the card table (at the first page of bottom dealing, i have the conjuror´s magazine version). I have days trying to figure out how to hide it, but nothing comes to my mind. Erdnase says: "a dealer should always keep the outer end of the deck, and the cards, as dealt, inclined towards the table. Following this rule tends to hide the work of the third finger in bottom dealing.". But the thing is that if i do that, my hand it´s on a very unnatural position because of the heigh of the table, and i start to feel a little bit of pain on my wrist. I have watched a lot of performance of goods bottom deals and i have realize that they hold the deck almost paralel. And i do the same thing, but appears the knucle flash. I have watched the Jason England´s bottom deal and he only propose an strike bottom deal inspired on the Gene Maze grip. I´m starting to think that i can´t avoid the knucle flash because the length of my fingers, but also, i thing that there´s no excuses for a good bottom deal. I want to have a good bottom deal like to use it on a game, but one of the things that i have to eliminate with practice is the knucle flash. But i repeat, it seems unavoidable to me.

I also have tried cover it with the right hand when "takes" the top card, and then push out the bottom card, but it looks suspicious.

What can i do to eliminate knucle flash? I would be very grateful of your advices.

Thanks for your time.

 

[FunkyBottoms]

Noctis,

Quinnhughes above touched on it as have others, and my previous posts in other bottom deal threads do as well.

Daniel Madison handling of the Bottom Deal, along with a modified Erdnase-esque grip, is specifically tailored to eliminate knuckle flash as much as humanly possible. It is extremely effective and I highly recommend you obtain and learn from Daniel's DVD set "Mechanic".

Which leads us back to what Quinnhughes said about it, and what I and a few others have expounded in in detail in other bottom deal threads right here in this subforum.

Daniel Madison's "Mechanic". Get it, apply it to what you already know from Erdnase and England, and make your own Noctis grip, Noctis bottom deal, etc. My bottom deal is my own, but really a blend of Erdnase, Wilson, England, and Madison. Madison's unique approach really had me rethink, and modify, my already solid bottom deal. I feel very fortunate to have stumbled onto Madison's insights as, when assimilated, they have elevated many of my table handlings in subtle but necessary ways.

Madison has some great insight into this issue, you can learn a great deal (no pun intended...well...maybe a little ) from blending knowledge and technique from multiple resources.

Best of luck to you

 

[Noctis]

Thanks for the advice. It helps a lot. I already have Mechanic, so i´m working currently on the bottom deal, thanks!