Penn Jillette condemns David Blaine... What do you think?

[Maverick85]

Sorry for the novel but I have much to say.

I'm a fan of both. I didn't get into magic thanks to David, as a matter of fact, my interest in magic came from watching a little guy who was short (like me) who didn't talk much (unlike me). His name is Teller, you may have heard of him. Does really great SOH at a level I'll never attain. I've been watching one of his tricks regularly for 15 years and I still can't crack it. Truly I don't want to know how it's done anymore; it's too good for a hack like me to know. Penn, he's a good performer but when he's talking outside of performance I feel like I'm watching somebody eating glass as a stunt. It's going to go wrong eventually, you just hope it's not today. I agree and disagree with him on thousands of points of conversation.

Gotta be transparent here. On this particular topic... Penn's a hypocrite and needs to shut his face. The concept that it's wrong and unethical to perform something on stage that could be dangerous, thus making the audience psychologically "to blame" is one thing... but Penn and Teller do that! Penn himself alluded to this in an episode of fool us when he was juggling. There is no safe way to juggle broken bottles. I don't buy that he'd have practiced the skill if he weren't going to do it for an audience so every audience who's ever seen it is responsible for every drop of blood he's shed learning it. While he can be a very good juggler, he can't know that a large piece of glass isn't going to dislodge just as he tosses the bottle thus changing it's weight and changing the way it will 'catch air' during the rotation. It's a dangerous stunt. If the bottle rotates oddly, it could do a lot of really bad things. The nail gun trick, I've basically figured out how he does that one so I won't go into that side, but it appears as though he could possibly fire a nail through his hand if he loses his count. I'm 99.9% sure that's not physically possible, but that's the illusion: it's a high stakes memory game.

Simply put, if P&T want to become opponents of doing "dangerous" things on stage, then they're going to be a big guy with some weird ideas juggling tennis balls while the little guy does stunning parlor magic. No juggling torches, no fire eating, no juggling broken bottles, no nail gun trick, no rat cage, no fur traps, no bullet catch, (as it is portrayed as being dangerous to the average viewer). His ideals would gut their performance.

When I was listening to the audio of his tirade I got the feeling that he wasn't angry about the danger, but about the draw. Almost like he knew if David was working a theater across the street from a P&T show, the P&T gate would be hurt by his presence. Less about disliking his portrayal of an old, old, ohhhhhhlllllllllddddd trick incredibly well and more about the guy being a legit performer who's got something going on that the same old 17 tricks wouldn't always outwork on a given Tuesday night.

I haven't seen David catch the bullet, but I know precisely how *I'd* "catch it" and make it look 100% legitimate without ever putting a live round in the gun. Thus, I see how it's a trick and how it's a magician lying about what's happening... lying about what's happening is what, 99% of the job? I haven't told the truth about what I was doing during a performance since my first performance. I think Penn's talking more as a performer who's worried about not being as much a draw as the next guy and knowing that his drawing power may be in peril. As such, you can't really take him seriously on this. He's speaking defensively, not creatively.

Some guy comes along with a card trick where the spec picks and signs a card, the magician whips out a blade, cuts open his abdomen and reveals that stuck to his liver is the chosen signed card, cuts it off his liver, lays it on the table, and sutures himself up... I'm not going to be a big fan of that guy's style. I'll have to think of why it's wrong besides the obvious explanation, that he'd blow me off any stage in the world with it. Too gory, yeah, too gory. Not family friendly.

 

[Casual Distraction]

I'm old school and I side with Penn. I don't think Blaine has been as positive influence on the profession and the magic world would be better off without him in my opinion.

 

[Gimmicked XD]

So, I guess I'm one of the "copy cats" that Blaine produced (he wasn't the one that made me interested, he's the one that made me obsessed). I loved his tricks and desperately attempted to learn them. Guess what I learned? They aren't Blaine's tricks. He didn't create them. He just does what all magicians do: buys some fantastic tricks, modifies them, and performs them. And guess what? I still love a majority of the tricks that he performed in his original show. So what?! Every magician has a "go-to" effect that holds a special place in their heart. Whether or not a magician is popular or not, this is how any art is done. Originality is actually really quite rare... who cares? Most people just want the credit, which is kind of conceited in and of itself to some degree. Well, heck, guess what? Even the applied sciences are full of copy cats. Do you think that I do anything unique in the hospital? Heck no. I do what I was taught and strive to excel at it... and after so many years of experience, I just may attempt to implement something new. This is how any trade is accomplished: study a master, become the master, be superseded by the next generation.

I think the only legitimate critique that has any weight is with regards to the guys that go off half-cocked and perform a trick half-assed. But, that's not Blaine's fault. Magicians (I'm including myself) are really good at fussing over whatever happens if it doesn't happen just the way we want it to. Face it. Had Blaine not come on the scene, we'd be whining and complaining that magic as a whole was disappearing for the most part. We'd complain about the lack of originality in table work (instead of street work). We'd complain that nobody's interested... yada yada yada. We complain... that's kinda what any artist does as they tend to be perfectionists.

Last but not least. I have NEVER IN ALL OF MY YEARS been derided for doing one of David Blaine's tricks. Matter in fact, most people request them.

Ok... I'll step off my soap box now.

Wow. Well said. You have a great point there!

 

[Timewise64]

P & T have demonstrated that they are extremely talented magicians. The fact that they have a TV show and appear in Vegas supports this opinion. Unfortunately, like many celebrities, they somehow think their skills in magic gives them the right and ability to preach political positions to their audiences. For that, I tune them out! Most entertainers are poorly educated, and as such need to keep their political beliefs to themselves. On the other hand I have watched David whenever and wherever I can find him, and to date I have never heard him say anything outside of what he does which is amazing magic.....now that's pure entertainment at its best!

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

(This got a little rambly, sorry)

I do think Penn has a point. I don't necessarily agree with it, but he makes a decent point. What Blaine is doing is seen as actual stunts with genuine danger, and that is antithetical to Penn's beliefs. He is extremely anti-violence. Then again, I personally do stunts that are dangerous so maybe that's just my perspective.

Look, P&T have been performing for decades. They don't "appear" in Vegas, they have their own theater. They appear in other cities when they tour. They are both millionaires. They could stop doing their show entirely and not hurt for money for the rest of their lives. On top of that, Blaine would not be a big dent in their seat sales if he started a show in Vegas. They are way too established and iconic. And further on top of that, they are very supportive of the local performances in Vegas - they often encourage people to see other shows.

David Blaine has absolutely been a positive influence on magic. Before he came along, magic was an "art" that was not necessarily dying, but it was definitely becoming more and more incestuous. Cookie cutter stage magic acts, and people creating magic to show other magicians. There wasn't much in the way of new blood or innovation, not much exposure to new audiences around the time Blaine's TV special came out. I know I was bored to death with seeing stage magic specials on TV - I stopped watching them in the early 90s. The only TV magic special I remember from the 90s was Ricky Jay's (which is still one of my favorite magic shows). Blaine revived public interest in magic.

Did he spawn imitators? Yep. So does -every- popular magician. Humans learn by imitation first, so when people get into magic they mimic the people they learn tricks from. If they stick with it they tend to develop their own voice in performance. When I started I was basically a mash up of Ricky Jay and Derren Brown. I have since developed my own distinct way of performing that suits me.

Penn is entitled to think that David Blaine's bullet catch is reckless and dangerous. I personally think anyone should be allowed to perform the material they want in the way they want - I might not watch it, as Penn has opted out of seeing Blaine's special, but I encourage anyone to do more than "just entertain".

If magic is to be considered an art, then it has to express or evoke something, in my opinion. If there is any one thing "wrong" with magic, I think that's it - the lack of significance to modern magic performance. It's all well and fine to try to focus on simply creating a moment of wonder or astonishment, but what does that mean in the greater picture of things?

Personally I like that there are people like P&T who express political opinions. I like that Derren Brown gets philosophical in his performances, or when he encourages people to think critically. I also like the pure love of the artistry and history demonstrated by Ricky Jay. There are many rooms in the house of magic, after all. Variety is a good thing.

 

[Gimmicked XD]

P & T have demonstrated that they are extremely talented magicians. The fact that they have a TV show and appear in Vegas supports this opinion. Unfortunately, like many celebrities, they somehow think their skills in magic gives them the right and ability to preach political positions to their audiences. For that, I tune them out! Most entertainers are poorly educated, and as such need to keep their political beliefs to themselves. On the other hand I have watched David whenever and wherever I can find him, and to date I have never heard him say anything outside of what he does which is amazing magic.....now that's pure entertainment at its best!

I do really like P&T, and I have been to see them, but I do agree, they slightly manipulate their fame to present their politics.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

They are expressing themselves and their beliefs through their performance. In other words, they are performance artists.

That is not manipulating one's fame to present politics. They've always done this. P&T have been really consistent in their style and such throughout their career.

 

[Gimmicked XD]

They are expressing themselves and their beliefs through their performance. In other words, they are performance artists.

That is not manipulating one's fame to present politics. They've always done this. P&T have been really consistent in their style and such throughout their career.

Yeah, I suppose.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

Personally I am thankful that there's a variety of performance styles out there. If everyone did the same thing it would be super boring.

If you want political, you can find it. If you want fantastical, you can find it. If you want "nothing but the magic" you can find that, too. I don't personally see a point in getting annoyed with someone deciding to perform a different way - just don't go see them. For my money, P&T is the only stage magic I've seen, that I actually want to see again - because their magic has more meaning than, "here watch this impossible thing happen".

 

[Gimmicked XD]

Personally I am thankful that there's a variety of performance styles out there. If everyone did the same thing it would be super boring.

If you want political, you can find it. If you want fantastical, you can find it. If you want "nothing but the magic" you can find that, too. I don't personally see a point in getting annoyed with someone deciding to perform a different way - just don't go see them. For my money, P&T is the only stage magic I've seen, that I actually want to see again - because their magic has more meaning than, "here watch this impossible thing happen".

Agreed 100%

 

[Mark B.(29)]

With regards to the original question. Yes, I do have issues with Blaine's "bullet catch". However, not because I think it's "violent". I'm not even quite sure what that means? If it's violent because he merely uses a gun, then I call B.S. With that said, the issue that I have is when a person performs a very high risk stunt for merely entertainment value. Hence, I object FAR MORE to people entertaining themselves with such an act than I do to Blaine performing the act. I object to people putting themselves at harm, and more specifically, to people actually harming themselves for entertainment value. Without going too heavily into rationals, my conclusions are that such entertainment contexts invariably objectify the human being therefore, depersonalizing thus said human being while at the same time removing anything that could be referred to as intrinsic value and dignity.

Ironically, in Blaine's previous show he stated that people secretly are hoping that something will go wrong, and I'll add, or at least be present if it does. If this is true, then what does that imply with regards to such an act as "bullet catch"? Are we not in some sense returning back to the days of the Roman Colosseums? Maybe that's too much of a leap for some. I don't know. I see a linked similarity to the two.

Anyways, I am a nurse after all and I get pissed off when people engage in behaviors that harm themselves. So, I guess I'm biased.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

You know, after hearing Blaine say that, I started thinking about it and I have changed my mind about it.

I don't think people are hoping things go wrong. At least, not normal, well adjusted people. I think the thing people enjoy about this sort of thing is the thrill of the possibility of someone getting hurt, but the relief of them not getting hurt. They want to see the person on stage beat the odds and do something incredible.

I do side show stunts. I'm even looking at getting a bigger, nastier animal trap to use so it's more of a genuine feat of strength/endurance. And I'll tell you, most people do NOT want to see someone genuinely injured.

 

[timsilva]

As much as I respect and look up to both Penn and David; I'm not torn on this particular issue. Penn's argument is completely valid. In fact, I would love to see David respond to this criticism.

What I love about Penn is that he always stands behind the substance of his arguments. I don't love that he used such harsh words during his podcast (this is the moment that everyone is talking about: link), but his point still stands.

I would have enjoyed David's special just as much, if not more, had he not included the bullet catch storyline.

On a brighter note, I enjoyed seen Daniel Garcia & Asi Wind sharing the screen, even if it felt a bit like scripted reality tv. Overall, "Real or Magic" was a far stronger special than "Beyond Magic," in my humble opinion. The interactions and reactions with the spectators were so authentic (and brilliantly edited), and he didn't do anything ethically blurry or morbidly salacious. The ice pick effects were dark, but there was no risk of death.

I'd rather live in a world were magicians don't think that they have to fake (or actually) risk there lives in order to draw crowds/views. It doesn't reflect well on audiences or the performer. Plus, there's always the odd chance that some kid will try to replicate it and end up hurting themselves.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

I also think Real or Magic was a more enjoyable special.

I can't speak for anyone else, but my own motivations for the side show stunts I do are genuinely overcoming fears and pushing my ability to control my mind's reaction to things. I don't personally think taking a personal risk is an ethically blurry action. He has disclaimers up saying not to do the things he does, and he never encourages people to do what he does.

Here's the thing - performers are not responsible for the actions of other people. I know, I know, the 'role model' thing - but no. If someone on stage is doing something crazy, that's their choice to do with their body. If someone decides to mimic that and hurts themselves, that's the consequence of their actions with their body.

Personally I dislike the "Don't do this at home" kind of disclaimers because I feel like they are useless. When I'm doing sideshow stunts I tell people to find someone who is qualified to teach you, like I did.

 

[TylerScottIllusionist]

On a brighter note, I enjoyed seen Daniel Garcia & Asi Wind sharing the screen, even if it felt a bit like scripted reality tv. Overall, "Real or Magic" was a far stronger special than "Beyond Magic," in my humble opinion.

That is how I feel exactly! I personally preferred "Real or Magic" compared to "Beyond Magic" but I thought it was so cool that he gave Daniel Garcia, Asi Wind, and Brett Loudermilk plenty of screen time so they can get their names out there to more people. If anything good came out of the special, it was that for sure!

 

[Alexrichmond]

I think that although penn has a point, I have to side with Blaine. He is free to do what ever he feels like would be a good effect on stage. David has a reputation to live up to now that he has done the bullet catch, if he wasn't performing it on stage then people would get upset, after seeing it done in his latest special. A lot of people are going to his shows to see this effect.

 

[francismcallister]

I love David Blaine he's the reason I got into magic after watching his street magic special years ago .

However I agree with Penn 110%

 

[Gimmicked XD]

Wow, the poll is quite interestingly spread out. Let's hope those Aiulanu warriors don't decide to tamper with it! (Haven't seen that meme for a while now!)

 

[Gimmicked XD]

That is how I feel exactly! I personally preferred "Real or Magic" compared to "Beyond Magic" but I thought it was so cool that he gave Daniel Garcia, Asi Wind, and Brett Loudermilk plenty of screen time so they can get their names out there to more people. If anything good came out of the special, it was that for sure!

42% agreed. Meaning infinity. A wise man once said the answer to life, the universe and everything was bestowed upon two numeric digits. I am yet to meet this genius sage. I think he is dead

 

[Timewise64]

(This got a little rambly, sorry)

"Personally I like that there are people like P&T who express political opinions. I like that Derren Brown gets philosophical in his performances, or when he encourages people to think critically. I also like the pure love of the artistry and history demonstrated by Ricky Jay. There are many rooms in the house of magic, after all. Variety is a good thing.

"

I guess we disagree on actors/ magicians, etc. using their 'stage' to express their political opinions! I recognize that in our country they can say pretty much anything they want, that we agree on! But I believe they are not qualified to tell other what to think and as such they look foolish when they tell us what we should be thinking....! They (P and T) have never suggested that people 'think critically', if they had, I would agree that we all should think critically....few even grasp what and how one can do this! In my mind artists should stick with what they know best....I vote with my time and/or my money, and I vote know on P & T....but as you suggest, to each his/her own...