Classic Pass Questions

[OsakaMidnight]

I know that there have been about a hundred (probably more) forum posts here about the classic pass, but I'm totally new to magic and have some questions that I haven't seen answered elsewhere on this forum. So I'm looking for any general practice tips (set up a mirror, angle down, etc.) and answers to the following questions:

1. So I have somewhat small hands, not small but smaller than average for my size. For reference I have a little difficulty with the Charlier Cut, but I can do it if I pull my pinky off just for a second. Anyway, back to the problem at hand...
Often when I pull the packet to the side at the start of the pass I find that it gets caught on the fingers of my right hand. Have any of you had these issues? If so how did you solve them?
I've tried to re-angle my right hand, change my grip and relax my fingers, but nothing really seems to help that much. Am I grabbing too big a packet maybe or is this one of those, 'too bad you don't have baseball mitts for hands' deals?

2. I find that the flash on this pass is MASSIVE. To be fair I am quite certain that this is a practice makes perfect and you're going to have to build speed deal, but when I get the pack out to the right it just seems like a blind man could see the packet, you know? Is my covering right too far over of the deck or is this why all the books I'm working with call for distractions with the pass?

3. For the life of me I can't get my left thumb to lie naturally along the long side of the deck while I practice. I'm contemplating gluing it to the cards its so frustrating for me. Naturally my thumb wants to be up against the middle joint of my right index finger when I'm passing. Is this going to be a problem in the long run?

4. Finally, do you move your right hand? I'm still so bad at the classic pass that I'm lucky if my cards make it out in one packet by the end, but I find that if I don't move the right the packets slide against one another making a ton of noise. Then again if I do move the right I'm worried that I'll call a ton of attention to the move. I know that I can riffle or jiggle pass to lower suspicion, but is that the only option?

Thanks for reading, sorry to go so long with a topic I know has been covered a thousand times. I'm living in Osaka, Japan and while I get most of my info from books and youtube there's no one to go to here when I need specific questions answered.

 

[Maaz Hasan]

So before I can help you, how much of a beginner are you to magic, and where are you learning it from? This will help me help you.

Also, I can't really respond for another hmmm 8 hours minimum so let me just give you the stuff I can tell you any ways.

A) It is a super hard move and only comes with a ridiculous amount of practice.

B) Angles are huge

C) It is very knacky, and subjective to one's own handling on it

D) Hand Size shouldn't be too much of a problem.

 

[OsakaMidnight]

Less than a month.

I have a pretty free and easy job so I basically practice all day and collect my paycheck before heading home. I do an overhand control with the injog and runs up and down the deck with my eyes closed or under my desk at this point, I can riffle containing top or bottom stock and do the waterfall flourish cleanly, I'm comfortable with the hindu shuffle top control, I can spring about 6-8 inches without too much issue (went all yesterday without dropping my cards once), my backslides are a little noisy but workable, and I can double lift with a little effort (although I can't figure out the pinky count for the life of me so I usually just try for the push off with the left thumb).

I'm working mainly from The Royal Road to Card Magic. When I have issues with the explanations or trouble understanding the illustrations I go to Youtube first and then The Expert at the Card Table if I'm still stuck (I like Expert at the Card Table, but I find it really dense to read so I tend to leave it to last).

 

[Maaz Hasan]

So do you know any full on tricks or routines that you would actually perform? The pass is useless without a tick and a presentation. It isn't a move you show to people. You might want to work for a month or 2 more before even attempting to learn it because it will definitely be difficult for you at this stage.

However, just to help:
If you are using the Royal Road, there is a very good chapter on the Classic Pass there.
I have ridiculously small hands, but the pass is no issue for me. You just need to keep practicing.
The Right hand goes over the deck, holding the bottom cards at the fingertip, and arched as high up as possible. The horizontal placement for it is all personal and for the angles. For now, do whatever feels comfortable.

Don't worry on flashing right now, focus on getting the move down fluidly. The Pass is 100% about angles, so you can deal with that later.

The thumb doesn't need to be at the side. Again, it is a very knacky move, do what feels natural. My thumb actually lies across the back of the deck, near the center, just like it does in mechanic's grip and dealer's grip. It wont be too much of a problem for you.


One thing that would really help is holding the cards loosely. A lot of people apply a ton of pressure on the cards, making there hands rigid, and causing the packet to fight its way through. You need to make your hands just do the motion naturally without noticing it. Your hands need just be there to do the motion, but they shouldn't form a rigid frame. They will need to adapt to the deck, not force the deck. To quote Bruce Lee "Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend."

 

[OsakaMidnight]

Thanks for all of your advice Maaz!

I'm still working on it. Maybe every 1 in 100 passes feels good, but that's better than 0. Much appreciated.

 

[Deadlyapples]

I like what you said about keeping your hands relaxed and loose. Once I learned this most of the moves I struggled with I can do now and the moves I could do before I do much more cleanly just by having relaxed hands. Not so relaxed that the cards fall on the floor though haha!

 

[Maaz Hasan]

Any update? Would be happy to help more if you need it!

 

[Simsallabim]

Thanks for all of your advice Maaz!

I'm still working on it. Maybe every 1 in 100 passes feels good, but that's better than 0. Much appreciated.

Dude, the off hand pinky and ring finger can move.

 

[obrienmagic]

I am in the process of filming a bunch of advice vids and actually THIS is one of them! i'll keep you posted when it is finished and it may help you to understand how to make these difficult moves a bit easier to conceal!

 

[jakeherndon24]

I know that there have been about a hundred (probably more) forum posts here about the classic pass, but I'm totally new to magic and have some questions that I haven't seen answered elsewhere on this forum. So I'm looking for any general practice tips (set up a mirror, angle down, etc.) and answers to the following questions:

1. So I have somewhat small hands, not small but smaller than average for my size. For reference I have a little difficulty with the Charlier Cut, but I can do it if I pull my pinky off just for a second. Anyway, back to the problem at hand...
Often when I pull the packet to the side at the start of the pass I find that it gets caught on the fingers of my right hand. Have any of you had these issues? If so how did you solve them?
I've tried to re-angle my right hand, change my grip and relax my fingers, but nothing really seems to help that much. Am I grabbing too big a packet maybe or is this one of those, 'too bad you don't have baseball mitts for hands' deals?

2. I find that the flash on this pass is MASSIVE. To be fair I am quite certain that this is a practice makes perfect and you're going to have to build speed deal, but when I get the pack out to the right it just seems like a blind man could see the packet, you know? Is my covering right too far over of the deck or is this why all the books I'm working with call for distractions with the pass?

3. For the life of me I can't get my left thumb to lie naturally along the long side of the deck while I practice. I'm contemplating gluing it to the cards its so frustrating for me. Naturally my thumb wants to be up against the middle joint of my right index finger when I'm passing. Is this going to be a problem in the long run?

4. Finally, do you move your right hand? I'm still so bad at the classic pass that I'm lucky if my cards make it out in one packet by the end, but I find that if I don't move the right the packets slide against one another making a ton of noise. Then again if I do move the right I'm worried that I'll call a ton of attention to the move. I know that I can riffle or jiggle pass to lower suspicion, but is that the only option?

Thanks for reading, sorry to go so long with a topic I know has been covered a thousand times. I'm living in Osaka, Japan and while I get most of my info from books and youtube there's no one to go to here when I need specific questions answered.

So one thing that took me awhile to learn is that tutorials are more just to give you the general idea of how to do something. Everyone's hands are different so what works really well for someone might not work for someone else. Also, Xavior Spade just released his work on the classic pass over at lostartmagic.com .

 

[RealityOne]

My advice is to spend your time learning other sleights that are more useful than the classic pass. I know of very few routines that actually use the classic pass.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

True dat. I only ever used the classic pass in one routine, and that was a routine I literally learned so I could use the classic pass. There are far more efficient ways to control cards these days.

The reason the pass was the de facto move back in the day is no longer relevant for most people.

 

[HectorE1]

People always bashing on the pass as not being an efficient way of controlling a card or move, or as they say "killing a fly with a sledgehammer" imo it's one of the best controls you can Know, with other controls the spectator will see you doing something to the deck manipulating it in some way double under cut, jog shuffle etc. when you do a pass the spectator sees nothing picks card loses it somewhere in the deck... thats it, that's all they see no manipulation on you're part, palm off let them shuffle... how fair is that

 

[Maaz Hasan]

I use the pass as my go to control all the time, along with a spread cull. I also use it to do other stuff, like set up a trick whilst I'm performing it. Granted, it is the move I have given a ton of attention to, and perform it regularly.

To each their own.

But yeah, I do agree with one thing: It is definitely not a beginner move. Definitely learn some other controls.

 

[RealityOne]

imo it's one of the best controls you can Know

Out of curiosity, how many other controls do you know? The more controls you know, the less likely you will use a pass. The best control for any effect depends on the context of the effect.

with other controls the spectator will see you doing something to the deck manipulating it in some way double under cut, jog shuffle etc.

Most of those actions are justified as having the card further lost in the deck. A placement in the middle leaves the card in the middle, a placement followed by a shuffle or a series of cuts puts the card at a random spot it the deck.

when you do a pass the spectator sees nothing picks card loses it somewhere in the deck... thats it, that's all they see no manipulation on you're part, palm off let them shuffle... how fair is that

Most passes I see have a telltale upward rotation or rocking of hands or a unnecessary riffle of the outer edge of the deck.

 

[HectorE1]

Out of curiosity, how many other controls do you know? The more controls you know, the less likely you will use a pass. The best control for any effect depends on the context of the effect.



Most of those actions are justified as having the card further lost in the deck. A placement in the middle leaves the card in the middle, a placement followed by a shuffle or a series of cuts puts the card at a random spot it the deck.



Most passes I see have a telltale upward rotation or rocking of hands or a unnecessary riffle of the outer edge of the deck.

1. I know my fair share of controls, top, bottom, second from the top whatever... Of course if I'm at a table I wouldn't do a pass, i get what you're saying, it wouldn't be the appropriate move in that situation so in that case I would use a multiple table cut control for example...
2. Most laymen now days have an idea that you can control or manipulate cards to your advantage they might not now how but they have an idea in this case I prefer a pass to anything else again they pick a card, it gets lost in the deck they shuffle you do nothing they do everything this what's perceived no manipulation on you're part...
3. I mostly use a dribble pass so I get them used to this action, no problem there, *drible pass "so you're card is somewhere in the deck (*cop, top palm) here shuffle"

 

[RealityOne]

1. I know my fair share of controls, top, bottom, second from the top whatever... Of course if I'm at a table I wouldn't do a pass, i get what you're saying, it wouldn't be the appropriate move in that situation so in that case I would use a multiple table cut control for example...
2. Most laymen now days have an idea that you can control or manipulate cards to your advantage they might not now how but they have an idea in this case I prefer a pass to anything else again they pick a card, it gets lost in the deck they shuffle you do nothing they do everything this what's perceived no manipulation on you're part...
3. I mostly use a dribble pass so I get them used to this action, no problem there, *drible pass "so you're card is somewhere in the deck (*cop, top palm) here shuffle"

What control you use is dependent on the performance situation and the design of the effect. You seem to understand that. My issue is because a lot of folks view the pass as the only control you need to know and therefore apply it in most situations. Typically, I can't see most people's passes, but I can tell that they have done "something" -- I prefer to control the card where I've apparently done nothing OR I've done something with justification.

 

[Juno]

Seriously guys...why doesn't anyone talk about the panoramic shift,that's literally one of the best controls I know, apart from the pass.

 

[James H.(5)]

The one handed pass is much much easier than the classic pass done well they will not see it at all

James

 

[James H.(5)]

but if you really want to learn the pass download Jason England tutorial he even shows you some really good covers for this slight
James