So, a couple weeks ago, I decided I wanted to get a perfect spread pass. I'm feeling pretty good about it's current state, so I thought I'd ask for help refining it as far as possible. Thanks in advance.
Spread pass help
- Thread starter Ziad Khayat
- Start date
From a mechanical standpoint, your pass is good. My concern is all the other futzing you do with the cards. For example, from :08 to :14 the squaring the short side of the deck after reinserting the card and the transfer from a little finger break to a thumb break. the waiving the deck around and then transfering the break back. and then at :19 the square, all round square and deck rotation. It is like you are trying to disprove something that a lay spectator won't ever suspect and your proof is such that a magician would never believe it. My only other critque is to hold the spread open a little longer.
The excessive handling makes everything you do suspect and gives lay spectators an explanation "he did something with the cards" when he spread them. The problem is most of the "something" you are doing isn't necessary for the spread pass.
The excessive handling makes everything you do suspect and gives lay spectators an explanation "he did something with the cards" when he spread them. The problem is most of the "something" you are doing isn't necessary for the spread pass.
The excessive handling is purely a technical demonstration. In an actual performance I might hold and transfer the break for a while before executing the pass. Right now I'm just looking to achieve technical invisibility. Anyway, thanks for the feedback.
The pass does not need to be invisible. You just have to make sure no body sees it.
The pass should be done so that nobody sees it. If people are grilling your hands, you don't do it. Work on making sure no one sees it, not to make it invisible. Why? Because in performance, you will not have that kind of lab setting.
I know. But two things: first, there is a certain kind of spectator that is just about impossibld to misdirect. Second, I just don't care. I want to get as close to technical perfection as possible.
Suit yourself. You don't need to misdirect them, just make sure no one is looking. If they are grilling your hands, you turn as you hand someone the deck and do it. You look them in the eye. Whatever.
@Ziad Khayat, I'm trying to convey that often less handling is more magical for spectators. Just because you can do something (like transfering the break or an all round square) doesn't mean you should.
Much of the problem I see with YouTube magicians is the incessant fidgiting with the cards. That removes all sense of magic and makes it more of a demonstration of skill. Demonstrations of skill may get you "likes" from other YouTube magicians, but real spectators will just assume "they are quick with their hands."
I am very much a student of the "Madrid School" of folks like Ascanio, Tamariz and Giobbi. Part of their philosophy is that every movement is justified and there are no excess movements. There also is an openness to the handling of the cards -- Giobbi's teaching of the LePaul Spread Pass has the spread done with both palms open and the fingers spread out. Much of the tutorials on Youtube for any sleight has the deck held close and frequently covered by both hands. The repeated squaring of the deck also gives a "closed" feel. The difference between an open feel and a closed feel is the difference between the spectator thinking the magician "did nothing" or "did something." The "did something" isn't magic.
@Maaz Hasan, the Spread Pass is a bit different than the classic pass in terms of the need for misdirection. The spread pass provides a justification for doing the pass in spreading out the cards. The idea is that if someone is watching the spread pass, all they see is spreading the card and then closing the spread.
Giobbi teaches that you should say something like "your card is somewhere in the deck" as you spread the card. I would add "but there is no way for anyone to know which card is yours" and then begin to close the deck. At that point, the audience's attention is relaxed because you are merely closing the spread. This is what is known as an "off-beat" in that you are doing something when the audience thinks nothing is happening. The only misdirection is to look at a spectator and ask something like "but you remember which card you picked?" As an additional note, the selection of a card and the return of the card to the deck should be treated as a "nothing" as something preliminary to the beginning of the trick. Again, this is the influence of the Madrid School and somthing I learned from Dani DaOrtiz in regard to forcing a card. If you treat it as unimportant, the audience isn't going to burn your hands.
Magic is a performance art. Your skills are good enough. Go out and perform for real audiences. That is the real thrill of magic.
Much of the problem I see with YouTube magicians is the incessant fidgiting with the cards. That removes all sense of magic and makes it more of a demonstration of skill. Demonstrations of skill may get you "likes" from other YouTube magicians, but real spectators will just assume "they are quick with their hands."
I am very much a student of the "Madrid School" of folks like Ascanio, Tamariz and Giobbi. Part of their philosophy is that every movement is justified and there are no excess movements. There also is an openness to the handling of the cards -- Giobbi's teaching of the LePaul Spread Pass has the spread done with both palms open and the fingers spread out. Much of the tutorials on Youtube for any sleight has the deck held close and frequently covered by both hands. The repeated squaring of the deck also gives a "closed" feel. The difference between an open feel and a closed feel is the difference between the spectator thinking the magician "did nothing" or "did something." The "did something" isn't magic.
@Maaz Hasan, the Spread Pass is a bit different than the classic pass in terms of the need for misdirection. The spread pass provides a justification for doing the pass in spreading out the cards. The idea is that if someone is watching the spread pass, all they see is spreading the card and then closing the spread.
Giobbi teaches that you should say something like "your card is somewhere in the deck" as you spread the card. I would add "but there is no way for anyone to know which card is yours" and then begin to close the deck. At that point, the audience's attention is relaxed because you are merely closing the spread. This is what is known as an "off-beat" in that you are doing something when the audience thinks nothing is happening. The only misdirection is to look at a spectator and ask something like "but you remember which card you picked?" As an additional note, the selection of a card and the return of the card to the deck should be treated as a "nothing" as something preliminary to the beginning of the trick. Again, this is the influence of the Madrid School and somthing I learned from Dani DaOrtiz in regard to forcing a card. If you treat it as unimportant, the audience isn't going to burn your hands.
Magic is a performance art. Your skills are good enough. Go out and perform for real audiences. That is the real thrill of magic.
... That's pretty much how I do my pass lol, either that or with a dribble pass.
I occaisionally perform for family and friends, and as such, frequently use the fidgety style because it fits my personality, but for me the true trill comes from the knowledge, the ability, to perform effects, or creating them. I decided to perfect my pass after getting busted by a rather intelligent friend who is slightly familiar with magic techniques.
Very well said, that was super informative and I'm not even part of this conversation. Thanks Reality!
I did say "just about" I am referring to smart, observant people with a slight knowledge of magic. Specifically misdirection. These people understand the idea of covering moves through misdirection and refuse to look away from your hands.
Then you wouldn't be doing the pass.... furthermore, am I right in assuming these people are mainly close friends and family?
Yes. And my whole point is to get a pass I can do anyway. I'm not a believer in going halfway with things I care about. I want a pass that magicians won't see.
If you have any in depth experience with the pass, you would know that every source states that the move is not invisible. Those same sources tell you that it doesn't need to be. It is only good with misdirection It is not a move that is done to show to other people. And let me just tell you, you wont get an invisible pass without misdirection. In fact, you will never technically have a 100% invisible pass because of angles.
1: the classic pass yes. This does not nessecarily apply to others.
2: I am aware that angles prohibit total invisibility. That is no excuse not to make it come as close as possible.
3: you have your opinions, I have mine. I created this thread for help refining my technique, not asking how to put it in a trick, and so far no one has actually helped with what I've asked.
2: I am aware that angles prohibit total invisibility. That is no excuse not to make it come as close as possible.
3: you have your opinions, I have mine. I created this thread for help refining my technique, not asking how to put it in a trick, and so far no one has actually helped with what I've asked.
This is not a classic pass. It's closer to a Herrmann pass and uses a spread as motivation and cover. Misdirection is useful, but not always necessary. If a sleight is deceptive enough, I'd argue that it is better to actually draw attention to your hands and the deck. Think of a color change. Would you misdirect someone from a color change? No, because the color change sleights are deceptive enough that we can do it in front of their eyes. Same with the spread pass in my opinion. I want the spectator to look at my hands when I show them a spread and close it. You spread the cards and close the deck and it is already done. They got to look at your hands the whole time, you had motivation for the spread and they saw nothing. Card controlled. It can definitely be 100% invisible. Perhaps not from underneath and straight on...but that is just ridiculous and not much of an argument.
@Ziad Khayat I think your spread pass is basically as perfect as it could get. Perhaps it needs a little more speed. Not to hide a move, but to look more natural. Also turning the deck after the pass seems unnatural and unnecessary. A tip, but you probably already know/do this: Spread the cards and close it normally. How does it look? Strive for your pass to be similar.
Ok - first, I want to be clear - if you find satisfaction from perfecting this sleight, you do you. That's cool and I encourage it. Anything you enjoy doing, you should do that. (As long as no one else is harmed by it, of course).
I'm just trying to get you to think about things a little differently - magic vs. technical skill. Technical skill is maybe 10% of a magic performance. Magic is created by engaging the audience's imagination, and getting them to care more about having the experience of the performance, than to figure out your methods.
There is no one that's impossible to misdirect. If they refuse to look away from your hands, or generally refuse to do anything other than figure out your methods - that's your failure to engage them. That means they feel more satisfaction from "proving your wrong" or solving the puzzle of the method they can't see, than from enjoying your performance. You misdirect those people by engaging them. Just like you misdirect everyone by engaging them.
The problem is this: If they feel more satisfaction from busting you, they don't actually need to know what you did. If you give them a moment where they can tell something happened, even if they don't know what it is, they busted you. There's no magic left after that. "I don't know what you did, but you did it when your hand was covering the deck."
I've seen guys that can do the classic pass so fast you can be staring straight at their hands and won't see a thing. But you know what? I may not see the cards moving, but I know exactly when it's done every time. Every person I know that's focused on trying to create a burnable pass, always has that moment when they tip that they are doing -something-. The guys that do so it flies by? They do it when no one is looking at their hands.
James Brown has a great story about this, which I believe I've mentioned in other threads. He was at some convention, there were a bunch of kids showing off their pass. They were very good at it. James Brown, by his own admission, is bad at the pass. He's watching them do the pass for each other, and nods and says, "That's very good." Someone sticks a deck in his hands and says, "Ok you do it!" He responds, "What? Here? In front of all these people?" "Yeah!" "Ok, well, I've done it." "What? I wasn't looking! I didn't see it!"
Aaron Fisher has a similar story in, I think, his Magic News Wire interview, where he mentioned he would pester his mentor to show him the pass, all the time. Finally the guy would relent, and say, "Ok. Are you watching? Good, because I already did it." "I wasn't watching! Do it again!" "Maybe tomorrow."
That all being said, and food for thought, etc. Here's my advice for perfecting any kind of pass, which is largely going to be piggy backing on RealityOne's stuff.
The key to making something burnable is to make it mimic the "proper" action perfectly. So here's what you do - Set up your camera and record yourself opening and closing the spread of cards. Do it a lot, so you can end up forgetting that you're doing something kind of silly and get to the point where it's a more natural action for you. Then watch that, and work at making the action of closing the spread and the action of doing the spread pass, look exactly the same. Do you cover the deck when you close a spread? Probably not much, because why would you?
Also - work on making your action of spreading cards and closing them look more like when you do the spread pass. That way any time you spread the cards for the audience you're also conditioning them to expect it to look a certain way. That helps disguise the action of doing the spread pass more.
Good luck!
I'm just trying to get you to think about things a little differently - magic vs. technical skill. Technical skill is maybe 10% of a magic performance. Magic is created by engaging the audience's imagination, and getting them to care more about having the experience of the performance, than to figure out your methods.
There is no one that's impossible to misdirect. If they refuse to look away from your hands, or generally refuse to do anything other than figure out your methods - that's your failure to engage them. That means they feel more satisfaction from "proving your wrong" or solving the puzzle of the method they can't see, than from enjoying your performance. You misdirect those people by engaging them. Just like you misdirect everyone by engaging them.
The problem is this: If they feel more satisfaction from busting you, they don't actually need to know what you did. If you give them a moment where they can tell something happened, even if they don't know what it is, they busted you. There's no magic left after that. "I don't know what you did, but you did it when your hand was covering the deck."
I've seen guys that can do the classic pass so fast you can be staring straight at their hands and won't see a thing. But you know what? I may not see the cards moving, but I know exactly when it's done every time. Every person I know that's focused on trying to create a burnable pass, always has that moment when they tip that they are doing -something-. The guys that do so it flies by? They do it when no one is looking at their hands.
James Brown has a great story about this, which I believe I've mentioned in other threads. He was at some convention, there were a bunch of kids showing off their pass. They were very good at it. James Brown, by his own admission, is bad at the pass. He's watching them do the pass for each other, and nods and says, "That's very good." Someone sticks a deck in his hands and says, "Ok you do it!" He responds, "What? Here? In front of all these people?" "Yeah!" "Ok, well, I've done it." "What? I wasn't looking! I didn't see it!"
Aaron Fisher has a similar story in, I think, his Magic News Wire interview, where he mentioned he would pester his mentor to show him the pass, all the time. Finally the guy would relent, and say, "Ok. Are you watching? Good, because I already did it." "I wasn't watching! Do it again!" "Maybe tomorrow."
That all being said, and food for thought, etc. Here's my advice for perfecting any kind of pass, which is largely going to be piggy backing on RealityOne's stuff.
The key to making something burnable is to make it mimic the "proper" action perfectly. So here's what you do - Set up your camera and record yourself opening and closing the spread of cards. Do it a lot, so you can end up forgetting that you're doing something kind of silly and get to the point where it's a more natural action for you. Then watch that, and work at making the action of closing the spread and the action of doing the spread pass, look exactly the same. Do you cover the deck when you close a spread? Probably not much, because why would you?
Also - work on making your action of spreading cards and closing them look more like when you do the spread pass. That way any time you spread the cards for the audience you're also conditioning them to expect it to look a certain way. That helps disguise the action of doing the spread pass more.
Good luck!