Magicians ARE NOT liars!

Dec 28, 2017
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I hear this all the time. People say that magicians are liars... Even some magicians say this. Penn Jillette says jokingly that he is a scumbag.... James Randi calls himself an honest liar. I have aunts who think so too...
I was performing a sucker trick for my aunt. So, I pretend to mess up and try to go on with it... But she stops me and says that she already "won", I was left dumbstruck...
Another aunt I asked to be a plant and her husband would never suspect, after some thinking, she said that it would be unfair to "lie" to her husband...

So I AM AKSING, HOW ARE MAGICIANS liars?
If magic is lying, then Music is mind control and theatre is a lie too...
I just can't see how is magic anywhere close to lying.

P.S I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT magical methods used to lie to people (e.g fraud psychics)
 
Jul 1, 2017
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It's tricky - the lying comes in to when you say you're doing one thing but actually doing another (i.e Marlo Tilt). However unless you are pranking the spectator it is not true lying because they know you are lying so it is not true lying per say.
 
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obrienmagic

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Nov 4, 2014
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The way I look at it is that i am playing the part of someone with magical powers. I am putting on a show. If they really think you are lying then ask them if they feel all actors are liars because they are all playing the part of someone else. I don't get upset at Tony Stark for telling me he made an Ironman suit because I know he didn't really... it is just a movie. Yet if I tell someone i made their card disappear they will be more inclined to call me a liar lol it is kinda funny tbh.

If I ever get called out I always use the movie metaphor and they usually concede their point. The only time I think magicians are liars is if they try to truly convince their audience that what they are doing is real, like psychics for example.
 

trapeze

Elite Member
Jul 28, 2016
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I hear this all the time. People say that magicians are liars... Even some magicians say this. Penn Jillette says jokingly that he is a scumbag.... James Randi calls himself an honest liar. I have aunts who think so too...

Actually, I've never heard this. Seriously, not once. I have heard people say that they hate magicians in much the same way that some say that they hate mimes. But, hey, you can't please everyone so...no big deal.

So...you "hear this all the time"...that "people say that magicians are liars..." Not some people but (all?) people and not some of the time but all of the time. Me? I have no idea where this is coming from. Real head-scratcher.

I was performing a sucker trick for my aunt. So, I pretend to mess up and try to go on with it... But she stops me and says that she already "won", I was left dumbstruck...
Another aunt I asked to be a plant and her husband would never suspect, after some thinking, she said that it would be unfair to "lie" to her husband...

I'm just going to have to go with, you must be doing something wrong to provoke these types of responses. Perhaps practice more and work on patter and a more natural presentation? Not sure.

So I AM AKSING, HOW ARE MAGICIANS liars?
If magic is lying, then Music is mind control and theatre is a lie too...
I just can't see how is magic anywhere close to lying.

P.S I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT magical methods used to lie to people (e.g fraud psychics)

And that's because magicians aren't liars (I hope I wasn't supposed to answer in all caps). Magicians are performance artists and there is a mutual understanding between artist and audience that what is "seen" is not real (unless the audience is unfamiliar with the basics of reality in which case I would be wondering about the venue). The audience is usually engaging in the suspension of disbelief, a psychological phenomenon necessary for magicians to ply their trade. Those who refuse this mutual understanding are what we call hecklers (or, jerks, if you prefer).

My question for you is, why are you asking this? You start out with a premise that magicians are liars (and you say that people say this all the time). And yet you end with a statement that contradicts your premise, you say that you, yourself, "can't see how magic is anywhere close to lying." (In fact, the title of your post directly contradicts your premise, in all caps no less.)

Do you see the problem with this?

Why do you attempt to create a "controversial" topic that you clearly do not believe in? Why not, instead, participate in threads that others start? Why not ask a question that isn't "controversial" but instead focuses on advancing your skills in the art? Why not attempt to answer questions posed by others (in their threads) and thereby help their advancement?

Now, I have taken your question seriously and given you my honest opinion as respectfully as I can. Would you do me the honor of answering my questions?
 

obrienmagic

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Nov 4, 2014
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And that's because magicians aren't liars (I hope I wasn't supposed to answer in all caps). Magicians are performance artists and there is a mutual understanding between artist and audience that what is "seen" is not real (unless the audience is unfamiliar with the basics of reality in which case I would be wondering about the venue). The audience is usually engaging in the suspension of disbelief, a psychological phenomenon necessary for magicians to ply their trade. Those who refuse this mutual understanding are what we call hecklers (or, jerks, if you prefer).

great answer
 
Jun 11, 2017
106
2
I hear this all the time. People say that magicians are liars... Even some magicians say this. Penn Jillette says jokingly that he is a scumbag.... James Randi calls himself an honest liar. I have aunts who think so too...
I was performing a sucker trick for my aunt. So, I pretend to mess up and try to go on with it... But she stops me and says that she already "won", I was left dumbstruck...
Another aunt I asked to be a plant and her husband would never suspect, after some thinking, she said that it would be unfair to "lie" to her husband...

So I AM AKSING, HOW ARE MAGICIANS liars?
If magic is lying, then Music is mind control and theatre is a lie too...
I just can't see how is magic anywhere close to lying.

P.S I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT magical methods used to lie to people (e.g fraud psychics)

Totally, everyone you do a magic trick for is trying to figure it out or call you out. So make it not about magic.
 

trapeze

Elite Member
Jul 28, 2016
70
58
USA
No way man, every kid is a heckler cause they don't think magic is real... Obrien... give them a reason not to.

Have to disagree.

No one who is of sound mind believes magic is real. If magic were actually real then it would be part and parcel of reality which it clearly isn't. Even very young children have a pretty good grasp of what is and isn't part of reality. It is up to the magician to convince his audience to pretend, for a moment, that reality isn't quite what they thought it was...the suspension of disbelief. How well that turns out is dependent on the technical and performance skill of the magician.

And I don't believe that children can be hecklers as I understand the term. Sure, some children can be rude, impolite and disrespectful but these characteristics are not heckling behavior in and of themselves. Heckling is, I believe, fairly good evidence of a personality disorder or neurosis. The heckler has an obsessive/compulsive need to draw attention to himself without the consent of the performer or audience. The heckler expresses that need in a hyper-aggressive and antisocial way. Children by and large are too young to have developed these mental conditions.

Children are difficult to perform for due to a number of reasons not the least of which is a short attention span. But, fundamentally, I think the bigger reason is that their life experiences are limited...that their brains have not had the time to hardwire in expectations for why certain actions should be viewed one way and not another. Put a different way, children have fewer preconceived notions than adults...notions that magicians count on for a lot of magic routines to work properly.

Performing successfully for children is difficult at best and I have a great amount of respect for those who are able to make a proper go of it.
 
Jan 26, 2017
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It's tricky - the lying comes in to when you say you're doing one thing but actually doing another (i.e Marlo Tilt). However unless you are pranking the spectator it is not true lying because they know you are lying so it is not true lying per say.
My biggest problem with the tilt is when people say that they're loosing it. I normally just put it in the deck and continue with my patter. The spectators can see what happens.
 
Jul 26, 2016
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My biggest problem with the tilt is when people say that they're loosing it. I normally just put it in the deck and continue with my patter. The spectators can see what happens.

I wholeheartedly agree. It is ironic, but saying things like, "We'll lose this card in the deck" or "We'll bury your card in the middle," can actually produce the opposite of the desired effect on the spectator. While those kinds of statements are intended to build conviction, instead, they are more likely to awaken suspicion that may not have existed before the statement was made. It alerts the analytical part of their brain, causing them to question the statement, especially coming from a magician, whom they know is going to try to deceive them. I remember hearing or reading a saying years ago - can't remember where - "A guilty conscience is its own accuser." Somehow that seems to fit.
 

obrienmagic

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I wholeheartedly agree. It is ironic, but saying things like, "We'll lose this card in the deck" or "We'll bury your card in the middle," can actually produce the opposite of the desired effect on the spectator. While those kinds of statements are intended to build conviction, instead, they are more likely to awaken suspicion that may not have existed before the statement was made. It alerts the analytical part of their brain, causing them to question the statement, especially coming from a magician, whom they know is going to try to deceive them. I remember hearing or reading a saying years ago - can't remember where - "A guilty conscience is its own accuser." Somehow that seems to fit.
Yup. I have been trying lately to avoid statements like this in general. They can see the card go into the middle. No reason to tell them haha
 

RealityOne

Elite Member
Nov 1, 2009
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New Jersey
And that's because magicians aren't liars.

Oh, I actually lie... a lot... to my audiences. Some of my favorite methods involve lying. That said, I've never been called a liar. Probably because I believe all my lies.:cool:

No one who is of sound mind believes magic is real.

Dang.. zero for two.;)

Children are difficult to perform for due to a number of reasons not the least of which is a short attention span.

True, but that ignores the elephant in the room. Wait, there is an elephant? Where? What were we talking about?

Oh, snap. Now I'm zero for three.:rolleyes:

But, fundamentally, I think the bigger reason is that their life experiences are limited...that their brains have not had the time to hardwire in expectations for why certain actions should be viewed one way and not another. Put a different way, children have fewer preconceived notions than adults...notions that magicians count on for a lot of magic routines to work properly.

I suspect a large part of the difficulty in performing for children is the short attention span. The other part is that they don't have the social skills to sit through a really bad performance or keep their idea of what the method is to themselves. A children's show needs to keep them engaged through strong magic and strong presentation. The biggest mistake is to think that performing for children is easy. They will tell you everything you do wrong and if you aren't entertaining, it will be apparent.

I remember hearing or reading a saying years ago - can't remember where - "A guilty conscience is its own accuser." Somehow that seems to fit.

The saying is "a guilty conscience needs no accuser." Although the saying reminds me of Edgar Allan Poe's The Telltale Heart, it apparently can be traced back to Chaucer and the Bible. That is just a perfect expression of how magician's guilt affects a performance.

So I AM AKSING, HOW ARE MAGICIANS liars?
If magic is lying, then Music is mind control and theatre is a lie too...
I just can't see how is magic anywhere close to lying.

But, the cake is a lie.:p
 
Jan 26, 2017
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I think it really comes down to the moral mindset of the performer. Some are ok with lying, others are not. For example, a lot of what Derren Brown says is not true at all.

Personally, I try and stay away from lying in my patter. I went back one day and went through my patter and changed every "lie" into a story. Thus, I could still talk about the idea, and use the effect simply relates to it. I don't actively say something like "So the card was lost in the deck. Now...", but rather bring up a patter that relates to the things that are happening in the trick. It's just the way I think, I don't like straight up lying to people if I'm not gonna tell them that it was total BS afterwards (and I do do that sometimes, I'll act like I'm doing something, then go, "Let me tell you something. Everything that you just witnessed in this trick, from the moment you signed the [whatever] to now.... was complete and utter BS. Because the trick isn't even about this. It's about [this]", and finish off the effect. I don't look to deceive people, I'm just looking to perform for them. But that's just me.

It all comes down to personal preference. Some are ok with lying and being liars, others don't like lying. So in conclusion,
the cake is a lie.:p
 
Jul 26, 2016
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I have found that most people love stories. Story-telling has been a ritual of human civilization going back for centuries. The great majority of my most popular routines center around a story. When the story is introduced, you can just see them relax and start to settle in, their analytical defense mechanisms giving way to the child within, that was mesmerized by stories practically from day one. Do they know the story isn't really true? Most of the time, they don't even ask - and it doesn't seem to matter. They just sit back and get lost in it, like they would any good story. The fictitious element is usually no more an issue to them than it is to someone absorbed in a movie, TV drama, novel, short story or play. For the love of stories seems to be embedded in the brainstems of humans and a hallmark of most cultures. On occasion, someone will ask, for example, in the popular Magician Versus Gambler routine, "Is it a true story?" And I will just smile and say, "Yes, a true story that I just made up," or, "Oh yes, a true work of fiction." And then they will smile too.
 
Jan 26, 2017
2,173
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I have found that most people love stories. Story-telling has been a ritual of human civilization going back for centuries. The great majority of my most popular routines center around a story. When the story is introduced, you can just see them relax and start to settle in, their analytical defense mechanisms giving way to the child within, that was mesmerized by stories practically from day one. Do they know the story isn't really true? Most of the time, they don't even ask - and it doesn't seem to matter. They just sit back and get lost in it, like they would any good story. The fictitious element is usually no more an issue to them than it is to someone absorbed in a movie, TV drama, novel, short story or play. For the love of stories seems to be embedded in the brainstems of humans and a hallmark of most cultures. On occasion, someone will ask, for example, in the popular Magician Versus Gambler routine, "Is it a true story?" And I will just smile and say, "Yes, a true story that I just made up," or, "Oh yes, a true work of fiction." And then they will smile too.
Exactly. Stories not only enhance the performance, but most of the time, it doesn't matter if it was a real story or not. As long as you say "Let me tell you a story...", it lets most people know it's fake, or true if it's a "true story". But it doesn't matter if it's real or fictional at that point.
 
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Dec 29, 2017
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When I think of tricks (or illusions) and actual, purposeful liars I think of the con artist.

It's a matter of intent and environment as far as I'm concerned.

That is a fair distinction. 3 card Monte hustlers for example. They use a decent amount of sleights depending on their skill level but I wouldn’t call them magicians.
 
Dec 28, 2017
63
14
Oh, I actually lie... a lot... to my audiences. Some of my favorite methods involve lying. That said, I've never been called a liar. Probably because I believe all my llies.

How is it lying, if it is part of an art form? Would you say that a theater actor who pretends to be stabbed is lying? No
 
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Lyle Borders

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Aug 5, 2008
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The definition of the word Lie?

"An intentionally false statement."

An actor pretending to be stabbed is not making a statement, and is therefore not lying.

A magician who says "and now watch as I push your card into the deck" IS making a statement, and it is an intentionally false statement. It is, by definition, a lie. The reason for the lie is irrelevant, it is still a lie.

If you simply take the "spectator's card" and put it into the deck without saying so, you are not making a statement and are therefore not lying.

Magic is not lying. Lying is lying, and magic often involves lying.

// L
 
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