Exposing Magic

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Aug 9, 2018
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So something that's really starting to bug me is how there are all these YouTube channels claiming to "teach" magic tricks, when all they are really doing is exposing magic and the magician, with almost no right to do so.
One channel I've seen in particular is [Edited by Moderator - No Need to Drive Traffic to Exposure Channels] - after every round Shin Lim has performed on AGT, I see a video uploaded almost straight away; such as this one: [Deleted by Moderator - No Need To Make Exposure Worse By Posting Videos on This Forum]

I feel like it's kind of disgraceful to magic to release things to the public in this way.
At the same time I understand how it can be a good thing that it may inspire more people to become interested in magic and performing it themselves. But releasing videos like this only hours after a performance, without the magician's consent is just pure disrespectful.

Unfortunately I don't think there's much we can do to stop this from happening.
That's just my thoughts.
 
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WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
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There's no practical way to stop this, currently.

It is disrespectful, I agree. It's also pretty pathetic. It's also the result of people like Brian Brushwood and Chris Ramsey, who are charismatic performers with a large following, giving the example that it's OK to teach tricks other performers are doing. While their intention may be altruistic, the problem is that the people who are coming into this world (ie: just starting to learn magic) are seeing popular people giving away methods. So clearly that's something that good, popular magicians do.

And inevitably those who start out just wanting to teach, say, basics - end up giving away things they have no rights to give away. Not long ago Ramsey put up a video stating he would stop doing tutorials on tricks for this very reason - he gave away the method to a trick that he did not have the rights to give away and got a crap storm of angry people telling him so.

Personally, when I see people giving methods away on YouTube I can't help but think that if they were better performers, they could get that attention by performing. So it's just sad. Like a little chihuahua yapping for attention.

But there will always be people who give these people attention, so there will always be these people.
 
Oct 19, 2015
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sk1indeep...I agree with your comments! I also get tired of Penn & Teller exposing tricks! I watch their TV show because of all the really great magic on the show, but I am always disappointed in the last trick/performance that P & T do, especially when they expose tricks like they did this week! I realize they are, by their own definition, so special and top of the list in professional magicians, as it is somehow ok to expose tricks....to me it has the opposite affect...

Yet I am going to see them this year...??? I can't help myself.....
 
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Antonio Diavolo

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Jan 2, 2016
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It's all about the clickbait. I know what channel you're talking about and none of his videos are edited and it's very clear he doesn't organize the videos before he films them. He just rambles for 10 minutes about how he thinks the trick is done and then puts an obscene amount of ads on it to capitalize on whatever magic performance is popular that week.
His tutorials are often just as unclear and poorly taught as he really doesn't care about whether his audience will perform the trick well or not. He just wants the views and has no respect for the art or his fellow magicians. That's just my two cents.
 
Aug 9, 2018
39
44
United Kingdom
It's all about the clickbait. I know what channel you're talking about and none of his videos are edited and it's very clear he doesn't organize the videos before he films them. He just rambles for 10 minutes about how he thinks the trick is done and then puts an obscene amount of ads on it to capitalize on whatever magic performance is popular that week.
His tutorials are often just as unclear and poorly taught as he really doesn't care about whether his audience will perform the trick well or not. He just wants the views and has no respect for the art or his fellow magicians. That's just my two cents.
I completely agree! It's sad how people care more about views than they do the actual art of magic.
It's funny because the same amount of popularity could be achieved if these people were actually to take the time to create and release their own creative content. Yet they don't; and still have the audacity to call themselves magicians.
 
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Jan 14, 2018
100
125
Philadelphia, PA
So something that's really starting to bug me is how there are all these YouTube channels claiming to "teach" magic tricks, when all they are really doing is exposing magic and the magician, with almost no right to do so.
One channel I've seen in particular is [Edited by Moderator - No Need to Drive Traffic to Exposure Channels] - after every round Shin Lim has performed on AGT, I see a video uploaded almost straight away; such as this one: [Deleted by Moderator - No Need To Make Exposure Worse By Posting Videos on This Forum]

I feel like it's kind of disgraceful to magic to release things to the public in this way.
At the same time I understand how it can be a good thing that it may inspire more people to become interested in magic and performing it themselves. But releasing videos like this only hours after a performance, without the magician's consent is just pure disrespectful.

Unfortunately I don't think there's much we can do to stop this from happening.
That's just my thoughts.
It is possible to stop him if the creators of the magic exposed care enough. If their material is copyrighted and the creator doesn't appreciate the exposure of his magic, there should be no reason that they couldn't copyright strike the video, and if the channel gets 3 copyright strikes, it's taken down unless those videos are removed/demonetized.

I've even heard of false copyright strikes working, which means that anyone can copyright strike a video, even if they don't actually own the copyright to the copyrighted material. (I don't condone this method)
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,877
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It's not copyright infringement if they're not using content created by someone else.

There are no legal protections for a method. Anyone can expose any method, and there is no recourse.
 
Jan 14, 2018
100
125
Philadelphia, PA
It's not copyright infringement if they're not using content created by someone else.

There are no legal protections for a method. Anyone can expose any method, and there is no recourse.
True, but if they show the video of the creator performing it, then it can be taken down. Also, I've heard Youtube is really lax with it's copyright strike rules, there are channels which have been false copyright struck down and it takes a while to resolve so.
 
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ID4

Aug 20, 2010
482
228
inevitably those who start out just wanting to teach, say, basics - end up giving away things they have no rights to give away. Not long ago Ramsey put up a video stating he would stop doing tutorials on tricks for this very reason - he gave away the method to a trick that he did not have the rights to give away and got a crap storm of angry people telling him so.

Everyone has the right to giveaway anything they choose. To tell people otherwise is misguided. Chris Ramsey never started doing tutorials on tricks in the first place. Not a single one, check your facts before you post. He is a comedian, not a magician.

There are no legal protections for a method.

Actually you're wrong again. Teller won a lawsuit against a Belgian entertainer that was trying to sell the method for his trick Shadows.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/teller-wins-lawsuit-copied-magic-690347
 

JoshL8

Elite Member
Aug 5, 2017
409
393
WA state USA
Everyone has the right to giveaway anything they choose. To tell people otherwise is misguided. Chris Ramsey never started doing tutorials on tricks in the first place. Not a single one, check your facts before you post. He is a comedian, not a magician.



Actually you're wrong again. Teller won a lawsuit against a Belgian entertainer that was trying to sell the method for his trick Shadows.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/teller-wins-lawsuit-copied-magic-690347

To start you should re-read your link, here is an excerpt;

Technically speaking, magic tricks aren't copyrightable. In a ruling by a Nevada federal court on Thursday, U.S. District Judge James Mahan states that explicitly.

What is protectable under copyright law is pantomimes, the art of conveying emotions, actions and feelings by gestures.


Teller won the suit because the guy parroted his style in performing the trick, he pretty much performed as if he was Teller.


As for Ramsey not being a magician, that is debatable. He certainly thinks he is a magician and many of his videos made that statement or talk about how to better magicians. Ramsey did have a video he retracted himself because he taught a trick by R Paul Wilson that he had no rights to teach and made an apology video. It was the mistake that made him decide to not do tutorials anymore. Here is the apology vid that states all this;

It appears Christopher T is correct.
 

ID4

Aug 20, 2010
482
228
To Start reread what I wrote as I didn't mention copyright. I simply pointed out that Christoper was incorrect.

Also just so you and everyone else is aware Chris Ramsey is a comedian, not a magician. To make this simple Chris Ramsey, is not the same person as Chris Ramsay.

Sorry but Christopher T is wrong.

Harry Houdini said:
Say what you want, but spell my name right!
 

JoshL8

Elite Member
Aug 5, 2017
409
393
WA state USA
To Start reread what I wrote as I didn't mention copyright. I simply pointed out that Christoper was incorrect.

Also just so you and everyone else is aware Chris Ramsey is a comedian, not a magician. To make this simple Chris Ramsey, is not the same person as Chris Ramsay.

Sorry but Christopher T is wrong.


Christopher T misspelled a persons name but we understand his point because of context. With this being a point of contention of yours I am reluctant to try to continue conversing since it seems that understanding others points as they intend them to be isn't your goal here. I dunno if you are joking with him or trolling, its hard to tell when it is in text rather than in person. Either way not going to put more effort into this.

Sure you win the internets:)
 
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Zeede

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2018
243
203
Well, good on Chris Ramsay (or Ramsey, whatever, the bearded guy that likes cardistry and solving puzzles on YouTube) for not doing them anymore. I think it's really admirable that the magic community is so protective of it's secrets, which is so rare these days in the Age of Wikipedia.

I'm only here because my family likes watching the American and British Got Talent shows, and my son is always fascinated with the magic tricks. One thing led to another and I was trying to learn some basic card tricks like Three Card Monte from YouTube. Then I discovered custom playing cards...and now I have twenty-something different decks.

This brings me to another question though: In card magic there seem to be some "public domain" tricks and techniques such as the various Card Montes and doing a double-lift. It seems like the question of who created what starts to get blurry, since a lot of the tricks are just a double-lift with a different force or different patter. Is this also a bad thing, or do tweaks change the routine enough that a YouTube magician could publish it as his or her own?
 
Sep 10, 2017
347
231
I hate those. Still, there are some pretty good legal channels. Such as Chris Ramsay, Jay sankey, and the occasional videos that Alex Pandrea, Xavior Spade, Rise Magic and shin lim post on their channel.
Yet there are certain illegal channels that post EXPOSURE which is both wrong and unprofessional. You will never learn much from them. They are made for the occasional curious laymen.
 
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WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,877
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Teller won the lawsuit because someone tried to profit from his protected melodrama, not because the method itself was protected. The method being sold was, by P&T's admission, not what they are currently using and a variation of a method used quite some time ago.

But you don't care about that, you just wanted to be a jerk and try to prove me wrong. Congrats, you're added to my ignore list, ID4, because you never provide anything worth reading.
 
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