Dealing seconds....

I've purchased multiple videos, including theory 11's, read and reread through the section in Expert Card Technique, and I cannot, for the life of me, figure out how to get the top card to pivot. It just slowly meanders downward after every strike. I feel like I'm mimicking what i see and read regarding using the meaty part of my hand below the thumb, but, nope! Lol. Does anyone have a tip or perhaps a key point that a lot of beginners miss? Thanks in advance.
brian
 
Apr 3, 2019
64
19
Everyone will be able to help you better if you post a video showing your problem.I can't fully understand what you mean, perhaps because I have never encountered the same problem, but I think this is an issue with your grip. For false deals, it's very important that you pick a grip that feels comfortable. I'd suggest maybe ignoring the books for a while, find a grip that's comfortable, and just try to deal seconds, irrespective of how sloppy it looks (we've all been there) as it could be that you haven't paid much attention to it. The grip is very important for all strike false deals. Another general piece of advice would be to start by using a large brief (as large as you need). One last point, is that in a strike second, for the card to pivot, it needs to be supported between the base of the thumb and the thumb pushing the card over.
 
Everyone will be able to help you better if you post a video showing your problem.I can't fully understand what you mean, perhaps because I have never encountered the same problem, but I think this is an issue with your grip. For false deals, it's very important that you pick a grip that feels comfortable. I'd suggest maybe ignoring the books for a while, find a grip that's comfortable, and just try to deal seconds, irrespective of how sloppy it looks (we've all been there) as it could be that you haven't paid much attention to it. The grip is very important for all strike false deals. Another general piece of advice would be to start by using a large brief (as large as you need). One last point, is that in a strike second, for the card to pivot, it needs to be supported between the base of the thumb and the thumb pushing the card over.


Thank you for the prompt reply. Honestly, i was worried this was going to be like some other forums where you just get trashed by everyone for asking your "dumb question"...lol. Im going to make a video as soon as possible. Thanks again!
 

Josh Burch

Elite Member
Aug 11, 2011
2,966
1,101
Utah
I've purchased multiple videos, including theory 11's, read and reread through the section in Expert Card Technique, and I cannot, for the life of me, figure out how to get the top card to pivot. It just slowly meanders downward after every strike. I feel like I'm mimicking what i see and read regarding using the meaty part of my hand below the thumb, but, nope! Lol. Does anyone have a tip or perhaps a key point that a lot of beginners miss? Thanks in advance.
brian

This is a pretty typical problem. You just need to work on pivoting the card and returning it back square with the top of the deck with the thumb. That's it.

For me, the action is performed with the thumb and pointer finger mainly. The thumb pulls the card up and touches it to the pointer finger. The rest of the fingers keep the rest of the deck square.
 
Im at work (i work away 14 days at a time) and can't figure out a way to set up my phone to make a video. I took some pictures of the 2 grips im trying you play with that i think may show the problem im having. Please, any and all criticism is welcome (you can't hurt my feelings LOL).

I noticed the pics uploaded out of order, not sure how to fix that.
 

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Nov 3, 2018
542
427
Hi Dooper,
After about a year of practicing the strike second deal (though, to be fair, not as much as other sleights) I still have a similar problem.
First, one little detail that might help you: Try resting the left thumb closer to the left upper edge instead of the right one. That might mitigate the sliding somewhat.
Apart from that little tip, I think it has to do a lot with your grip (which is influenced by your hand size), as in that some people have no problem holding the deck in a way that the bottom left corner still touches the palm at the correct point for the card to pivot like on a hinge. (That last sentence was way too long, if the meaning isn't clear, please ask.) My grip doesn't allow such a perfect hinge. So you'll have to work on what Josh Burch said above and actively "pull" the top card upwards with your left thumb when you feel it gliding downwards.
In the end it's down to practice. As I don't practice the strike second too much I still have this problem to an extent, but it's gotten much better than it was in the beginning. Don't invest in any more sources specifically on this sleight; what you've got so far is more than enough. Just focus on getting it down smoothly.

Another little tip: If you don't yet have some experience with false deals, go with the mechanic's grip (the first three pictures you posted). It allows you to do just about every false deal, looks relaxed and natural and doesn't have any major drawbacks. The full grip (all four fingers along the side of the deck) will present some major problems if you try to do a bottom deal.
I don't know if you already have some experience with false deals (if so, you can ignore this; you know what you're doing), but if you're just starting out I'd recommend you to practice with the mechanic's grip.

I hope this message will help you somewhat!
 
Thank you so much! I really appreciate all the input. As far as experience with false deals, no, I don't have any. Your suggestion about using mechanic's grip seems pretty sound to me as that does seem to feel the most comfortable. I don't have exceptionally small hands, but they are below average in size. I am going to play with the position of my thumb and I guess just keep screwing it up until I don't. lol Again, thank you and everyone else for the advice, you all are great!
- brian

Hi Dooper,
After about a year of practicing the strike second deal (though, to be fair, not as much as other sleights) I still have a similar problem.
First, one little detail that might help you: Try resting the left thumb closer to the left upper edge instead of the right one. That might mitigate the sliding somewhat.
Apart from that little tip, I think it has to do a lot with your grip (which is influenced by your hand size), as in that some people have no problem holding the deck in a way that the bottom left corner still touches the palm at the correct point for the card to pivot like on a hinge. (That last sentence was way too long, if the meaning isn't clear, please ask.) My grip doesn't allow such a perfect hinge. So you'll have to work on what Josh Burch said above and actively "pull" the top card upwards with your left thumb when you feel it gliding downwards.
In the end it's down to practice. As I don't practice the strike second too much I still have this problem to an extent, but it's gotten much better than it was in the beginning. Don't invest in any more sources specifically on this sleight; what you've got so far is more than enough. Just focus on getting it down smoothly.

Another little tip: If you don't yet have some experience with false deals, go with the mechanic's grip (the first three pictures you posted). It allows you to do just about every false deal, looks relaxed and natural and doesn't have any major drawbacks. The full grip (all four fingers along the side of the deck) will present some major problems if you try to do a bottom deal.
I don't know if you already have some experience with false deals (if so, you can ignore this; you know what you're doing), but if you're just starting out I'd recommend you to practice with the mechanic's grip.

I hope this message will help you somewhat!
 
Nov 3, 2018
542
427
Looking back, I noticed that my comment regarding hand size might have come across the wrong way: Hand size is not directly relevant to the quality of the false deal. The best example is Jason England "vs." Richard Turner. Both have incredible second deals (Richard Turner's especially are a thing of beauty!), but have drastically different sized hands.
The size of your hands is relevant when choosing your grip. Here it's important that you choose one that suits you, because no card-man or -woman out there has exactly your hands. So your grip will differ from another person's grip somewhat, and that's important to keep in mind when reading or seeing descriptions of finger positions: "[They're] more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules." See what fits your hands. Over the years you'll notice an evolution in how you handle cards, and that's fine. But I highly recommend to stick to the same grip for every deal you do, regardless of whether it's second, bottom or fair.

While this wasn't really on the topic of your question, I hope you'll still find it helpful. Good luck and have fun practicing, Brian!
 

Joey144

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2007
296
111
Bavaria, Germany
A few words up front:

False deals really depend a lot on the size and proportions of your hands
and fingers. Additionally, it makes a big difference which kind of cards
you are using (brand as well as condition of the cards). These are all
pretty uncertain factors which is why it is difficult for an explanatory text
(or video) to take them all sufficiently into account. This means that if
you want to get really good at a false deal, you will have to experiment a lot
and adjust the deal to your specific circumstances. This holds for all kinds of
false deals (seconds, centers, bottoms, thirds,...). You should not get
discouraged if your deal is not up to par yet with second deals that you
see other people do. It takes years to get to a really good second deal that you almost
never miss and that you can do with any kind of cards that get thrown at you.

Your problem:

It was already mentioned but I have to say it again: Start with a Mechanics Grip.
Jason Englands video is an excellent starting point. The full grip that you seem
to be using right now is a pretty difficult grip because you have less control
over the cards.

Experiment with the position of the deck in your hand.
The point where the lower left corner of the deck touches the base of your thumb
is obviously the critical point here. You want to find the right point at the base of your thumb that allows you to do the action
without loosing control over the top card. This depends on your hands so don't worry
if it is not exactly the same spot as described in some book or video. In addition, I suggest that you slightly bevel
the deck. This does not only help to conceal the move but in my experience it
also helps with the pivoting action.

Hope this helps you a bit! Don't lose the motivation, it is incredibly rewarding to finally get the
hang of the move.
 
What type of deck would you say is the easiest to learn with?

A few words up front:

False deals really depend a lot on the size and proportions of your hands
and fingers. Additionally, it makes a big difference which kind of cards
you are using (brand as well as condition of the cards). These are all
pretty uncertain factors which is why it is difficult for an explanatory text
(or video) to take them all sufficiently into account. This means that if
you want to get really good at a false deal, you will have to experiment a lot
and adjust the deal to your specific circumstances. This holds for all kinds of
false deals (seconds, centers, bottoms, thirds,...). You should not get
discouraged if your deal is not up to par yet with second deals that you
see other people do. It takes years to get to a really good second deal that you almost
never miss and that you can do with any kind of cards that get thrown at you.

Your problem:

It was already mentioned but I have to say it again: Start with a Mechanics Grip.
Jason Englands video is an excellent starting point. The full grip that you seem
to be using right now is a pretty difficult grip because you have less control
over the cards.

Experiment with the position of the deck in your hand.
The point where the lower left corner of the deck touches the base of your thumb
is obviously the critical point here. You want to find the right point at the base of your thumb that allows you to do the action
without loosing control over the top card. This depends on your hands so don't worry
if it is not exactly the same spot as described in some book or video. In addition, I suggest that you slightly bevel
the deck. This does not only help to conceal the move but in my experience it
also helps with the pivoting action.

Hope this helps you a bit! Don't lose the motivation, it is incredibly rewarding to finally get the
hang of the move.
 
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