More than Magic

Jun 18, 2019
540
293
20
West Bengal, India
Those who responded to the thread asking about doing magic as a job, thanks! It really helped a lot and I'm sure it also provided tangible ideas on how to do something related to magic as a full-time job (or keep on passionately with magic even if it's not a job) for many others on the forum, in addition to me.

However, I've been looking for more tangible advice in general, and here is another question which is supremely interesting to me, I believe can improve the art of magic a thousandfold and also...bothers me a bit.

We are all human beings and as humans we have more than one talent or one passion or just simply, more than one thing we're good at.

How do you include your other passions (vastly different from magic sometimes) in your performances?

Examples would be appreciated :)

For example, adding background music to a magic video doesn't seem like justice done to one's passion of music, so if somebody (and I'm sure everybody) here is passionate about music, how do you incorporate it in magic? Or any other passion? Just the patter? Or is there anything more I'm missing?

Here's the part however which bothers me:- A certain person (I'm unfortunately not sure if I remember correctly who he was, and I won't risk a wrong guess, lol) mentioned in Magic In Mind that if we believe that magic in itself isn't inherently entertaining, we're wrong. If we think music, or comedy or dramatic effects and the physical attraction of showgirls (don't kill me, I'm paraphrasing, okay?) are needed to make magic stronger, we'd do better becoming a musician, a comedian or a stripper (lol). Apparently only that which makes magic itself stronger should remain, rest should go out.

Thus the problem~°~°~
What if the things I'm incorporating are not necessarily making the magic stronger, as if magic is the boss of all passions for a magician BUT it's a symbiotic relationship? What if the magic makes the music (or photo or video or advertisement for an app, or poem or background recitation or WHATEVER) stronger *as well as* the magic too becoming stronger due to the extra art form included in the performance?

Which indicates directly that sometimes the magic would be compromised to give the other art its spotlight, or the other art would be compromised to make the magic stronger, in a given performance.

Am I then selling out as a magician? Could I then say that "I'm just an artist who happens to perform magic'' and lose the right to call myself a full-blown magician?

Lastly (thirdly, if you're following ;-) ) a more minor concern. Eugene Burger in an earlier essay told readers to assume that magic itself isn't inherently interesting.

*NOW WHAT????*

PS:- Too many questions for a single thread but these had been going around in my head for a while now. I'd appreciate replies! Thanks :)
 
Nov 3, 2018
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I love these threads you're starting. Please keep them up. To everybody more qualified than me to talk about this (yes, I'm looking at you, @RealityOne, @WitchDocIsIn, @obrienmagic and everybody else I just happened to forget!), please say something on this topic!
I've had a similar question for quite some while: Is there a way for a symbiotic relationship to form between music and magic, with the music not just accompanying magic (e.g. Shin Lim and many others), but enhancing the effect and bring it to a whole new level? Mohana, you put it very well: "What if the magic makes the music stronger as well as the magic too becoming stronger due to the extra art form included in the performance?

For me, music is the perfect example. Both music and magic have such a great potential of unlocking streams of emotions, the feeling of wonder we talk about so often.
For the last couple of months I've been dreaming of a show that manages to combine the two things, to create something that in it's sum is greater than it's parts. Along the lines of "The Magic of Music - The Music of Magic". On the one hand a concert, with good music being performed by good musicians, on the other hand a magic show in which the music helps to make the magic experience more intense, whether it be by playing a jazzy tune to illustrate the fun story the magician is telling or by having the music do the telling, without extra patter from the magician.

Whether or not this model would work is not the point: The point is that I believe that these two art forms have the potential to complement each other and achieve things each of them on their own would be hard pressed to achieve.

Looking back, I noticed that I didn't really answer any question, or if I did, then the answer is too jumbled up for anybody to understand. Let me try again: Yes, I think it's possible to combine other passions of yours with magic, especially if they have such similar potential as music and magic. But a) I wouldn't know exactly how, and b) I'm not sure about anything I just said. So I'd really appreciate the more experienced members of this forum to come forth and share their wisdom!
 
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DavidL11229

Elite Member
Jul 25, 2015
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Seattle
As a magician you are a performer. Some magicians have studied theater as an entirely appropriate way to advance themselves in their craft. You can make a performance stronger by improving parts that are not magic but enhance the atmosphere and guide the spectator to the proper frame of mind. If the music and dancers enhance the communication of the magicalness of the performance it was a success, if it is a distraction then it was not.

Don't believe everything you read. Find performers you like, take their advice and add your own thing to it and dismiss the others after careful consideration. Some claim the effect is all that matters, some say it's presentation and others will say to stand on technique. Of course it is a combination of all. I believe magic is also theater but the weight of each factor is dictated by circumstances and the chosen perspective of the performer. The pundits are mostly all right, just not at the same time. Choose your own perspective that plays to your strengths.

Which indicates directly that sometimes the magic would be compromised to give the other art its spotlight, or the other art would be compromised to make the magic stronger, in a given performance.

Am I then selling out as a magician? Could I then say that "I'm just an artist who happens to perform magic'' and lose the right to call myself a full-blown magician?
So you saw a funny magic routine. Was it a comedian who did a magic trick or a magician who did comedy? It mostly only matters when it comes time to print their business cards. The selling out question is between you and yourself. If your vision is for sheer amazement by illusion with no distractions and your producer insists on dancers then maybe you are, but if you think it makes your performance stronger then that's what matters. Story, music and atmosphere and comedy can enhance the effect. But again, they can also distract and dilute. Which would you rather compromise, the art or the performance? If the performance must take a back seat to the art you should either perform in front of a mirror for yourself or educate the audience as to the importance of art, but then this becomes performance itself.

The magic should be strong enough to stand on it's own, then enhance the experience with theater as appropriate. But it's your vision. Do what you gotta do.

This does not apply to teaching. If you are making an instructional video and you think the explanation needs background music, it does not.
 
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Jun 18, 2019
540
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West Bengal, India
I love these threads you're starting. Please keep them up. To everybody more qualified than me to talk about this (yes, I'm looking at you, @RealityOne, @WitchDocIsIn, @obrienmagic and everybody else I just happened to forget!), please say something on this topic!
I've had a similar question for quite some while: Is there a way for a symbiotic relationship to form between music and magic, with the music not just accompanying magic (e.g. Shin Lim and many others), but enhancing the effect and bring it to a whole new level? Mohana, you put it very well: "What if the magic makes the music stronger as well as the magic too becoming stronger due to the extra art form included in the performance?

For me, music is the perfect example. Both music and magic have such a great potential of unlocking streams of emotions, the feeling of wonder we talk about so often.
For the last couple of months I've been dreaming of a show that manages to combine the two things, to create something that in it's sum is greater than it's parts. Along the lines of "The Magic of Music - The Music of Magic". On the one hand a concert, with good music being performed by good musicians, on the other hand a magic show in which the music helps to make the magic experience more intense, whether it be by playing a jazzy tune to illustrate the fun story the magician is telling or by having the music do the telling, without extra patter from the magician.

Whether or not this model would work is not the point: The point is that I believe that these two art forms have the potential to complement each other and achieve things each of them on their own would be hard pressed to achieve.

Looking back, I noticed that I didn't really answer any question, or if I did, then the answer is too jumbled up for anybody to understand. Let me try again: Yes, I think it's possible to combine other passions of yours with magic, especially if they have such similar potential as music and magic. But a) I wouldn't know exactly how, and b) I'm not sure about anything I just said. So I'd really appreciate the more experienced members of this forum to come forth and share their wisdom!
:D
 
Jun 18, 2019
540
293
20
West Bengal, India
As a magician you are a performer. Some magicians have studied theater as an entirely appropriate way to advance themselves in their craft. You can make a performance stronger by improving parts that are not magic but enhance the atmosphere and guide the spectator to the proper frame of mind. If the music and dancers enhance the communication of the magicalness of the performance it was a success, if it is a distraction then it was not.

Don't believe everything you read. Find performers you like, take their advice and add your own thing to it and dismiss the others after careful consideration. Some claim the effect is all that matters, some say it's presentation and others will say to stand on technique. Of course it is a combination of all. I believe magic is also theater but the weight of each factor is dictated by circumstances and the chosen perspective of the performer. The pundits are mostly all right, just not at the same time. Choose your own perspective that plays to your strengths.


So you saw a funny magic routine. Was it a comedian who did a magic trick or a magician who did comedy? It mostly only matters when it comes time to print their business cards. The selling out question is between you and yourself. If your vision is for sheer amazement by illusion with no distractions and your producer insists on dancers then maybe you are, but if you think it makes your performance stronger then that's what matters. Story, music and atmosphere and comedy can enhance the effect. But again, they can also distract and dilute. Which would you rather compromise, the art or the performance? If the performance must take a back seat to the art you should either perform in front of a mirror for yourself or educate the audience as to the importance of art, but then this becomes performance itself.

The magic should be strong enough to stand on it's own, then enhance the experience with theater as appropriate. But it's your vision. Do what you gotta do.

This does not apply to teaching. If you are making an instructional video and you think the explanation needs background music, it does not.
What if say, somebody loves writing and telling stories. In that case, suppose the storyline was amazing. Absolutely beautiful.

After the trick was done, it was suppose, pretty evident that the magic enhanced the story and drove home the ''moral'' (I use that term loosely) of the story, but ALSO, the magic itself was strong and the story too gave meaning to the magic.
Both enhanced each other and both were compromised in the same performance to share the spotlight.
What then?
 
Dec 2, 2019
11
2
Those who responded to the thread asking about doing magic as a job, thanks! It really helped a lot and I'm sure it also provided tangible ideas on how to do something related to magic as a full-time job (or keep on passionately with magic even if it's not a job) for many others on the forum, in addition to me.

However, I've been looking for more tangible advice in general, and here is another question which is supremely interesting to me, I believe can improve the art of magic a thousandfold and also...bothers me a bit.

We are all human beings and as humans we have more than one talent or one passion or just simply, more than one thing we're good at.

How do you include your other passions (vastly different from magic sometimes) in your performances?

Examples would be appreciated :)

For example, adding background music to a magic video doesn't seem like justice done to one's passion of music, so if somebody (and I'm sure everybody) here is passionate about music, how do you incorporate it in magic? Or any other passion? Just the patter? Or is there anything more I'm missing?

Here's the part however which bothers me:- A certain person (I'm unfortunately not sure if I remember correctly who he was, and I won't risk a wrong guess, lol) mentioned in Magic In Mind that if we believe that magic in itself isn't inherently entertaining, we're wrong. If we think music, or comedy or dramatic effects and the physical attraction of showgirls (don't kill me, I'm paraphrasing, okay?) are needed to make magic stronger, we'd do better becoming a musician, a comedian or a stripper (lol). Apparently only that which makes magic itself stronger should remain, rest should go out.

Thus the problem~°~°~
What if the things I'm incorporating are not necessarily making the magic stronger, as if magic is the boss of all passions for a magician BUT it's a symbiotic relationship? What if the magic makes the music (or photo or video or advertisement for an app, or poem or background recitation or WHATEVER) stronger *as well as* the magic too becoming stronger due to the extra art form included in the performance?

Which indicates directly that sometimes the magic would be compromised to give the other art its spotlight, or the other art would be compromised to make the magic stronger, in a given performance.

Am I then selling out as a magician? Could I then say that "I'm just an artist who happens to perform magic'' and lose the right to call myself a full-blown magician?

Lastly (thirdly, if you're following ;-) ) a more minor concern. Eugene Burger in an earlier essay told readers to assume that magic itself isn't inherently interesting.

*NOW WHAT????*

PS:- Too many questions for a single thread but these had been going around in my head for a while now. I'd appreciate replies! Thanks :)
I think the secret of success of any magician is his uniqueness.
Uniqueness here means a style of Magician and the way he carries out his magical act.
Example- David Copperfield in theatre and big audience shows. David Blaine- Street magic and TV shows. Shin Lim- King of Card Illusions.
So here every one has also tried to use his uniqueness eg Blaine uses his body endurance trainings to his advantage in his shows.
I will give you more examples.

Maria Gara The Snake Babe- uses her sexy charm to lure the attention of spectators and then amazes them with her tricks.

Penn and Teller- Penn was a juggler he uses some techniques in his routines.

Similarly famous mathwmacian like Martin Gardner and Harry Lorayne have used principles of maths to give some of the coolest card effects in the history of magic.

So yes you can combine your knowledge of personal and professional life to your advantage. And it doesn't reduces the aura of a magician inside you.

I hope it helped :)
 
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Jun 18, 2019
540
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West Bengal, India
I think the secret of success of any magician is his uniqueness.
Uniqueness here means a style of Magician and the way he carries out his magical act.
Example- David Copperfield in theatre and big audience shows. David Blaine- Street magic and TV shows. Shin Lim- King of Card Illusions.
So here every one has also tried to use his uniqueness eg Blaine uses his body endurance trainings to his advantage in his shows.
I will give you more examples.

Maria Gara The Snake Babe- uses her sexy charm to lure the attention of spectators and then amazes them with her tricks.

Penn and Teller- Penn was a juggler he uses some techniques in his routines.

Similarly famous mathwmacian like Martin Gardner and Harry Lorayne have used principles of maths to give some of the coolest card effects in the history of magic.

So yes you can combine your knowledge of personal and professional life to your advantage. And it doesn't reduces the aura of a magician inside you.

I hope it helped :)
It does! Thanks mate :D
 
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WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
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2,945
What if say, somebody loves writing and telling stories. In that case, suppose the storyline was amazing. Absolutely beautiful.

After the trick was done, it was suppose, pretty evident that the magic enhanced the story and drove home the ''moral'' (I use that term loosely) of the story, but ALSO, the magic itself was strong and the story too gave meaning to the magic.
Both enhanced each other and both were compromised in the same performance to share the spotlight.
What then?

This is called "Bizarre Magic".

In my opinion, anyone telling you there's a 'right' way to create art is not worth listening to.

I think the major problem, though, comes from a simple misunderstanding. Magic, itself, is not Art. Magic is a set of skills that can be used to create art. Another example- painting. The act of painting is not (generally) art. The final product, the painting (noun) is the art. If the painting (n.) also contains speakers that play a sound, and E.L. Wire to enhance certain visual aspects, that doesn't make it any less a piece of art, it just changes what kind of art it is.

The only time there are rules to follow is if one is attempting to create a specific type of art. For example, I just made a lengthy post on seances in another thread - there are 'right' ways to do seances and many people do get that wrong. However, performing a program that is not a seance doesn't make it not art - it's just mislabeled.

When looking at advice from another person always consider the source. Look at where they are coming from, and what they are trying to communicate. Then assess their message and hold it up to your goals and ambitions. If their advice doesn't get you closer to your goals, you can set it aside. Doesn't matter who it comes from, even if they are generally well respected or someone you yourself admire.

No one can tell you how to create your art. They can only tell you how they create their art. If that helps you, great. If it hinders you, forget it. Work towards your vision. Until it changes. Then work towards the new vision.
 
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WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
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I'm of the belief that any rule can probably be broken once it's fully understood, but I also believe that words have meanings for a reason.

The point is not to break rules just because, but to understand the rules so that if they need to be broken to realize one's vision, the reasoning for it is solid and understood. Example - Brian Brushwood calls (or at least at one time called) his show "Bizarre Magic". It's not bizarre magic at all if one is going by the definition used by the magic community (Which is story based magic mixed with occult philosophy) - however, it is magic that is bizarre (in the sense of weird/strange) and a lay audience would absolutely call his show bizarre magic.

A lot of the time the 'internal' labels that we (or any art community) applies are just that - internal. They are useful terms to organize and segregate esoteric knowledge. To a magician it can be important to differentiate between, say, a card magician and a card sharp. But to a lay audience that difference is much fuzzier and they probably don't care. Mentalism is a very good example of this - everyone and their mother calls themselves a mentalist if they do a mind reading trick these days, but actual mentalism is very distinct and most people using the label publicly aren't anywhere near an actual mentalist. For marketing purposes, though, it helps them.

There are cases where public perception of certain labels is something that one has to consider. Generally speaking this is important whenever there's a laymen term that overlaps with a magician's term. In my example in the previous post it was seances. People still perform seances outside of the magic world - therefore, there is an expectation from the lay community of what a seance is. Therefore if the magician doesn't satisfy that expectation the audience will go away disappointed. Understanding what the lay audience is going to think when they see or hear a specific term will help one to sell the performance and get the correct audience for it.

Knowing what words mean to the people who are reading and hearing them is important. The performer has to understand how to convey what they are offering without confusion. That's a big reason why I almost never use the term "magician" in my advertising - it brings to mind the wrong image and if people are expecting one thing, and they get something totally different, it doesn't matter how good that show is.

To drag this back on topic - There are going to be people who say that one mixes various things into magic, it ceases to be magic. They have a specific idea in their head as to what that word means. Don't worry about them. Purists are all about making these arbitrary barriers so that they can hold themselves to some higher level, but they are almost always trying to make up for their own insecurities.

There are many rooms in the house of magic. If one room isn't suiting you, find another one. Don't worry about other performer's definitions of what you do - you only have to worry about how the audience perceives you, in that you want them to perceive you how you wish to be perceived. If they are the ones giving you labels that you're not keen on, then worry about adjustments.
 
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Jun 18, 2019
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West Bengal, India
There are many rooms in the house of magic. If one room isn't suiting you, find another one. Don't worry about other performer's definitions of what you do - you only have to worry about how the audience perceives you, in that you want them to perceive you how you wish to be perceived. If they are the ones giving you labels that you're not keen on, then worry about adjustments.
Wow. Not only magic-wow but life-wow.
So I guess I reject labels, #MagicIsMagic
Oh wait...that wasn't the exact hashtag...

PS:- Thanks a lot!
 
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