YouTube Magic

[Morgan B]

Wow, I have been gone on this one for awhile and I get told that I am stupid. Nice Mods – how is this professional behaviour? Well, since they can’t read it all – again, I will deal with it as I see fit.

Let me start with Guardian - well, I am starting to wonder how you pick these awards for IJCM - because the award is only as good as the credentials from the person giving it out. Now that I have read more of your posts – I value your opinion MUCH less. So here is the deal:

What empirical evidence do you have that “only magicians” look up exposure videos. Have you done a study on it – or are you basing this on your years of experience doing magic – consider how young you are – I am not sure that is enough to be considered valid.
We can have a pissing contest on what we have experienced – I have heard of many people looking up magic on Youtube to figure out the secret, at the High School level and beyond.
The thing is guys, at one point it took an investment of effort to learn magic, YOU NEEDED TO KNOW HOW TO READ - it was special to those that had the secret, as the best kept stuff is STILL in books – now anyone can figure out the “often inaccurate” history of method and ownership – like the personal story of Roy Walton being called a fool for correcting a young student naming his effect the Voodoo cards, when it was HIS card warp. You say “lay people” don’t look it up – haha, which is because once they get a hold of Youtube...they aren’t lay people – search the words “learn card trick” and see all the methods that are handed out as they are worthless.

Guardian I lost MUCH respect for you when you called this concept of exposure stupid. Your reaction also made me believe that this is how you find your magic – illegal downloads. You appear to have very little magic education and know nothing that isn’t spoon fed to you by videos. Do you believe your disclaimer on Royal Road is good – or does it remind them there is a method they can research? So at the end of this “amazing” experience, you say – oh, by the way – the methods, that are as simple to learn as reading...or if you have half a brain and some computer savvy, you can find them on the internet, hope you enjoyed my “tricks”. It’s like watching a movie and being reminded at the high impact ending that they were actors – like a sad blooper real – because the movie wasn’t funny or good enough to leave a better impact. ...no no, it’s like MERRY CHRISTMAS CHILDREN – then, surprise, fake beard – no such thing as Santa. Nice work!

Do I think magic Youtube exposure will kill magic – nope – but it does hurt it. I think if you follow some of my suggestions, it will help that. If not, no big deal, it won’t hurt magic forever, but for now it does – and for the most part there is an unnecessarily large amount of poor magic on Youtube. Search card trick on Youtube...look 5 down to the “Best card trick in the world” - very natural double. But who cares – nobody sees it...there must be 9,320,838 magicians that really enjoy watching that trick. Nice call, I think you did just crap yourself, because you learned something. Doesn’t add up – and this is just one of many posts – not all are very so little or so much, but to say that NO exposure occurs...or that it occurs so little it doesn’t matter – ignorant to the concept of magic – keeping the secret. Lastly Guardian – it doesn’t sound like you agree with Aris when you say that people watch a video again and again and break it down...

Which leads me to Aris:
Buddy, you openly say you are not into reading so much, I wonder if you read this thread at all – but to say that people can watch an effect again and again is ludicrous.
First rule of magic...Guardian are you reading? – Don’t expose the method! Keep the secret!
Second – Never repeat a trick twice? First time it’s a good trick – second time is a good lesson. Not all methods can withstand being seen again and again – very few methods can – and this was my point. Good luck videotaping card under glass and believing it will be magical seen again and again.

Please take more time thinking about the post and reading what has been said I know they are long – I am sure you would prefer a Youtube video of it to make life easier - I bet you hardly made it through this one Aris – but magic isn’t meant to be spoon fed and even though Guardian is too young to realize it – the words I speak are valid.

 

[Guardian452]

WOW, youre kind of an elitist huh?
people dont agree with you, let it go
i havent had a problem with people looking up tricks with me
in my street shows, NOT "BLAINING" or whatever the hell you want to call it. i do a 30 minutes show, and rake in tips at the end, i love doing it and ive had people come back to me a couple months later on how they bought the royal road and love it and ask for more sources.
im doing what i love, as are you, trying to knock down other peoples opinions.
i think youre wrong, DEAL WITH IT

 

[Morgan B]

An elitist? Thank you. Also, a critical thinker that sees room for improvment in our magic. Sorry I don't agree that "Youtube magic" is healthy for magic. I don't care if you agree - but I just want to point out the weaknesses in your ideas and that you really aren't thinking the points out. GOOD CALL CHAPS - nobody can catch sleight of hand on camera...hmm, Casino's are wasting their money with CCTV cameras to catch cheaters - they can watch it again and again...it won't matter if the technique is solid....BZZZZZZZZZZ - wrong! Very illogical thinking - you are probably on to something though - i may not have to waste my time replying to posts that everyone can see lacks substance - moreover, I am starting to see that it isn't from a lack of intelligence but a lack of experience and maturity.

I really appreciate that you do busking shows - and glad you make good tips - I PRAY you are awesome - as I love when good magic is done. I too love magic and want what is best - but if you think that my concepts and tips on making a good Youtube post are ridiculous...when it is really just common sense...it leads me to believe you have no common sense...and if you have no common sense....then I wonder how good an entertainer you really are. If you are as good as you say, and love magic as much as you appear too - then respond to the valid points that I have made - and stop making personal attacks.

Oh, and I am not KIND of an elitist - I am. However, I want everyone to join me on that level - I was hoping you would...as I am far away from where I want to go...but obviously you and I are not on the same level. I want to see eye to eye...but it is hard when I am so obviously looking down at you.

You know - it is your insensitive posts that drive away people from forums and prevent the real talent from thinking and sharing out loud. So far, all I have seen you do is knock thoughts - but offer NONE of your own. Why bother posting when you have nothing to share. You are ruining it for others. I am starting to see that I shouldn't be angry - but really feel sorry for a child so lost in spraying his anger, that his insecurities are lighting up like Kobe playing the Raptors. I am sure you are great - but this post is not about you - it's about your rude reply calling my concepts stupid, because your short lived life experience tells you it's different. I don't say this often - but Guardian - you are wrong. It doesn't matter, but there is an issue here worth discussing - but I am starting to realize the forum client is probably guilty of this more than anyone....so it's like telling a group of men at a strip club to stop being perverts. Oh yeah, I forgot, you are 16....Guardian, a stip club is a place where women take their clothes off for money - and you have to be an adult to go in - anyhow, I wouldn't recommend them....although there is this one girl that does dancing cane while on stage and....well, she probably got her act from Youtube.


Oh, one more thing - please remove the thread I started from your "awards" I now realize the backbone of the awards come with no substance and feel it actually hurts the legitamacy of the ideas being expressed. Thanks.

 

[ThrallMind]

Oh, and I am not KIND of an elitist - I am. However, I want everyone to join me on that level - I was hoping you would...as I am far away from where I want to go...but obviously you and I are not on the same level. I want to see eye to eye...but it is hard when I am so obviously looking down at you.

Morgician, if you want to prove you are the better man, then stop arguing with the kid. I'm sure you have better things to do with your time.

the only people who look up exposure videos are magicians. MOST laymen do not do this. honestly

Guardian, can you provide me some actual evidence proving this claim?

-ThrallMind

 

[Morgan B]

Great advice Thrall - I guess for an elitist, I made the mistake of treating a kid as an equal...moving on. Thanks Thrall.

Side note: Forums have been frustrating lately.

 

[Guardian452]

because noone at my school has brought it to my attention, noone has EVER come up to me and said they looked it up.
morgician, i never said about the solid method and etc. that was other people, i never said they can watch it over and over or whatever
im 14, i have a girlfriend, id rather not go into a strip club, a strip club is for men who cant get women, or just want to have fun, i dont need to look at other women, i have my girlfriend.
i do make a lot of money from busking, so i am good, WHY would an audience pay for a bad magician on performing on the street?
out of pity? no, an audience isnt going to pay you 200 dollars in tips for pity for a 30 minute show. and, qoute me if you can, where did i say it was healthy for magic?
all i said was i dont have a problem with it, meaning, ive never had anyone come up to me and say i looked it up online.

so let me clarify
i dont like exposure on youtube magic, but i havent had a problem with it. there is no proof that most laymen look it up either, what ive experienced is that they dont. MAYBE its in the performance. MAYBE the performer is representing it as a puzzle than a magic trick. MAYBE

look down on me if you want, i perform and make money, im happy.
so, mr. ive worked with these 500 artists, whats youre name?
do you have proof youve worked with these guys?
do you have proof you has done all of these things you have mentioned for youre accomplishments?

 

[Morgan B]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz when is someone going to post something worthwhile to read.

Can someone define analogy.

Anyhow - seems like we are in agreement - Youtube magic is bad for exposure when done poorly - if only there were some guidelines to help us post created by the group?

Oh wait, that is how this thread started - now if only people could add to that and alter to give solid advice.

OH - I know why that is not happening - becuase people only trash advice...and point out problems, but don't offer any solid advice of thier own. The only advice I ever read here is...it doesn't matter....when we all know it does. SO - if it doesn't matter and you don't agree...don't read and don't post.

For those that do or need help with posting on Youtube - adhere to these guidelines and you will avoid exposure and get good comments on your video magic.

 

[Guardian452]

......we trash advice when it is demanded at us, which is how the tone of youre rant came off.

people will always hire magicians, they wont go "HAPPY BIRTHDAY LITTLE TIMMY!!! GO LOOK ON THE COMPUTER, ITS A MAGICIAN!!!!!" and not hire a magician. Why? because everyone knows that its always better to see the real thing.

people who OWN magic dvds will say "yeah, this is good, but seeing him live is just.....WOAH"

so, can you please go back and respond to everything i said in my above post, we still have NO proof that you have said any of the things you have done
NO proof that you have worked with famous artists
the only things we know of is that you have an extensive vocabulary and you like to talk about how right and knowledgeable you are.

 

[Morgan B]

it is how you chose to read my "rant" - which is advice - BUT remember, you chose to read it. You could have easily read it and dismissed it as worthless advice....but you didn't.

This means to me that it bothered you - the advice hit home and you started to think about your own posts perhaps. It made you angry that someone...someone you have called "a geezer" told you that you should be more careful. Your posts come off as a child that is mad at his parents for not letting him go to a party...or have his girlfriend spend the night. (pleasea don't write back the reality of the situation, as these are analogies G - please look that word up).

This exposure is not just about lay people G - it is about new magicians, how they are learning and the problems with revealing methods with poor posts with no theory or history behind it. THIS is the part I think you anger about - as I start to wonder how many books you have in your collection, and honestly -

I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR FROM OTHERS ON THIS:

BUT - I FIND IT A BIT REPULSIVE TO THE CONCEPT OF MAGIC THAT YOU TELL PEOPLE WHAT BOOK TO GO BUY. You are advertising exposure....also, you are reminding people there is a method. You suck the magic and mystery away from what you do, when you tell people on the streets that everything you just did can be found in a book. You have lowered magic to a cooking formula, in which the recipe can be found in a cookbook.

No wonder you don't agree with me - you actually do the exact opposite of the magician's oath:

"As a magician I promise never to reveal the secret of any illusion to a non-magician, unless that one swears to uphold the Magician's Oath in turn. I promise never to perform any illusion for any non-magician without first practicing the effect until I can perform it well enough to maintain the illusion of magic."

You promote exposure and do it every chance you get. You are arguing solid advice to help prevent Youtube exposure and promote Royal Road to card magic - haha, even for those that don't take the time to find the book...you provided an out - an answer exists. You then don't perform magic...you perform tricks.

I will email you if you PM me your email address - however, it shouldn't matter who I am or who I have rubbed shoulders with - if you can't tell I am not your average bear from my posts - then I realize I am wasting my fingers on typing...and I think I am going to go work on my magic.

One more thing I find many people think - if you make a lot of money doing magic, doesn't mean you are the best - if you believe that - then guys like Blaine and Angel are the best we have to offer, and although they do their thing very well - would you say they are the BEST in magic? I wouldn't agree if you did.

haha - Thrallmind - sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

[Guardian452]

im going to respond from the bottom of your post up since im on quick reply.

i have NEVER said im the best, i have NEVER said that im better than anyone when it comes to this art. I would NOT say they are the ebst in magic (blaine and angel) i would say people like Larry jennings, gregory wilson, michael ammar, paul harri, just to name a few of my idols.

im not breaking the magicians oath, at least directly, i perform until i have them down flat.
in my show i do not represent my magic as PURE magic, since, if i had TRUE magic powers...why would i have a deck of cards and a sharpie with me. I do not pass my effects off as puzzles but i do not say "this is real magic." whenever someone asks me, "is that real." i respond, this is the product of years of hard work and dedication. Royal road started me on magic when a performer at his show did the same thing. he said "the kind of magic i do is not real, but pure sleight of hand, i hope you all have enjoyed it, if any of the younger kids in the audience are interested, i have a book here that will teach YOU how to become a great magician if you practice and keep it up. i walked up and he gave me the book for free, as well as several other kids. best thing that ever happened to me.
common sense, does it makes sense for me to perform effects then tell them where i got them from? i perform an array of close-up effects, mostly NO cards, but when i do take them out i perform an ambitous card routien that is NOT in royal road (but uses the same moves taught of ocurse) and an effect i learned off of firestarters by Jay sankey, i do these for smaller crowds to build up to bigger ones. in my bigger show i do a rope escape, cups and balls, gazzo's tossed out deck. not in that order, but you get the idea. i mention the book to maybe spark an interest to the children in the audience or younger teens who are my age. it gives them a place to go to learn some begginer stuff, think of it as me citing my beggings. which has worked fine for me.

as far as i remember, RR has nothing on cups and balls, ropes, or a tossed out deck concept.
i own
RR
expert at the card table
david stone's close-up
houdini on rope escapes

and others but im at my computer ready to leave so those are the ones that pop to mind.
yes, youre advice is bothersome because its just to harsh and straight foreward. i beleive youtube does a lot more good for us than it does bad. how else would people internationally show others an effect? i like youtube for magic becasue without it i wouldnt see the VAST amount of wonderful performances that i have seen.

i want youre name
and copies of all these diplomas and etc. that you have from doing all of this.

PS i do NOT own tyler wilsons book, which i have been looking at for a while to buy, i might pick it up fairly soon.

 

[KildridMagician]

I've read a lot of posts for this section, and none are on topic with "Youtube Magic".

Please don't spam T11 Forums - let everyone know what you think of Youtube magic and what not.

 

[Morgan B]

I think the last poster is right - the last few posts are a bit off topic, as we aren't dealing with Youtube magic - so I will PM.

On the topic of Youtube magic - I never said stop - but if you want to share - share quality magic...my advice is not harsh - but it is straight foward. If you want to do something, do it well. PERIOD. My advice - and all others is welcome - is to help people do that. I am asking for good magic to be done on video - this should bother you.

I was going to save this for the PM - but young magicians might learn from this:

If you are reminding people that what you are showing them is just moves and methods - it is like being reminded mid-film that the movie is just actors, lines, plots and special effects - why would anyone cry, laugh, be frightened...and have an array of emotions during a movie that they are being reminded is "just a film". NO movie claims to be real - but oddly, people take great interest in those even "BASED" on a true story. Point is - I don't claim I have real magic powers - but why are you reminding them?

If magic is ever going to be considered an art - like a picture - it is up to those watching to decide - not the artist to tell them. That removes the mystery....try it - see if your $ goes up, as that seems to be how you judge your success.

Talk soon Jeff.

Oh, and for certain get Tyler's book - and look for his new one to be released soon.

 

[Steerpike]

Well, okay then. You asked for it.

Let's begin, shall we?

RULES...X that - A FEW SUGGESTED GUIDELINES FOR YOUTUBE POSTING:

1) ONLY do effects that can be REPEATED WITHOUT EXPLANATION – this is where the method is solid enough to withstand being watch again and again by the viewer.

2) Don’t flash – let me repeat that DON’T FLASH – seems obvious? Well, it must not be – because I have seen very few videos that don’t flash something. The unblinking eye picks up everything, so watch your video with a critical eye – film and re-film until it looks FLAWLESS to the most critical observer.

3) Better than not flashing sleights – do effects that have NO MOVES – use self working effects or do the dirty work off camera

4) USE YOUR ADVANTAGES - you are on camera, so use everything to your advantage – edit, angles, gimmicks…whatever, just make sure the magic you do doesn’t reflect the method.

Two questions. First of all, who is this targeted to?

Here is an example of where the switches are done on camera – leading to the method – this guy has posted in this group, so it’s not a personal attack – but remember, you put yourself out there.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=yGS1I_VssqY

Here is another example of something you watch once and then again to catch the moves – great magic, ruined by Youtube.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=-ohfo7MVh_M&feature=related

Lastly, an example of something you can watch again and again and not know the method if you are a lay audience.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=0JRbhFdMhWQ

Sorry I couldn’t’ find it in English.

Second, did you really not see the irony in doing this?

BUT - I FIND IT A BIT REPULSIVE TO THE CONCEPT OF MAGIC THAT YOU TELL PEOPLE WHAT BOOK TO GO BUY. You are advertising exposure....also, you are reminding people there is a method. You suck the magic and mystery away from what you do, when you tell people on the streets that everything you just did can be found in a book. You have lowered magic to a cooking formula, in which the recipe can be found in a cookbook.

Forgive the tangent, but if this is your reaction, then first I hope you're sitting down and have a paper bag at the ready for when you start hyperventilating.

Ready? I'm working on a program to teach magic to children at a local library.

I'll give a few minutes for your panic attack to finish.... Done? Good.

That said, I think you're getting worked up over nothing. You're a little too caught up in the passion of your crusade.

 

[Morgan B]

Steerspike – the tone of “I asked for it” sounds very threatening. However, your post lacked in that set up, so I will just answer your questions kindly in hopes that you really were just trying to share.

Your first question – who was it targeted at: anyone that was making Youtube posts of magic. I find that sharing “unpractised” moves over the internet is a great way to get feedback...but it is also a great way to expose the method to EVERYONE else that clicks on your link. In other words, it is a teaching aid for exposure. Imagine – you put a book out – I read it and demo all the work in a way that all the other magicians can figure out the methods – I find this the equivalent to sending out the PDF of the actual book. Also, I find guys promote themselves using Youtube videos as links – however, I have seen a number of effects that people can watch (and are asked to through advertising of the site) that completely expose the method through poor performance and logical/critical thinking through repeated watching of the effect. The advice was aimed as practical advice for anyone that posts on Youtube.

Second question – is it ironic that I used Youtube videos to demonstrate my point – if you believe that me using examples from the internet to illustrate the problem is ironic – then yes, but then again you would also have to believe that Alanis Morrisette “rain on your wedding day” is a good illustration of irony too...in which it is not. Me showing the problem and solutions using the actual demon makes perfect sense – as it is the problem we are talking about. I had to illustrate my point – I understand that the post/thread also acts as a promo for Youtube – but that is why I lend the advice – I would love to see magic off Youtube (at least the stuff that is deemed exposure) but I know that won’t happen, SO if you can’t beat em – get them to take proper and careful steps to limit how much bad stuff is out there.

Lastly, I am not SURE what you think you wrote Steerspike – as your post was 75% of my words quoted...and then you call it a rant after 4 short sentences that were used to follow up my ideas? Haha, typicial magician blunder – use someone else’s stuff and claim it as your own, haha. All joking aside – it seems like you just wanted to post to bring up you are teaching magic to children...GOOD FOR YOU. I have NO idea why you thought that would bother me, but sorry – I find it way off topic actually. Since we are sharing, and you may need some clarification on things:

I don’t see anything wrong with teaching magic – as long as you are qualified to do so – but I do see a problem in doing a magic performance and saying at the end...after the show – I got this stuff from a book and here is the name of that book. If someone came up and asked – fine...most won’t search it out – and those that do, obviously have a passion for it – but for the rest – it is a mental out. They are reminded that what they say was “just a trick” and once they come to that conclusion, there is no magic.

Read Designing Miracles and Strong Magic by Darwin Ortiz – if you want to better understand me and where I am coming from. If you haven’t read those – then you can not relate and I don’t have time to teach you about a higher approach to your outcomes in magic. In other words – we are in different places. However – I have provided you with the map by naming some great literature to help you understand.

Steerspike – I have taught magic too, at many levels to all ages – however, it is not the teaching I am concerned with – as I am sure you will teach the kids and perhaps give them some history on a direction they can head if they want more – you won’t say, “just search magic tricks on Youtube” as you realize that it’s not an accurate teaching aid. The stuff is out there – but I have had to “re-educate” more youth because of it. Perfect example was my post in the “Jumping Gemini” card thread.

In conclusion Steerspike, I am not getting “worked up” but I am passionate about discussing things that have an impact on magic...however big or small. I am surprised at the amount of heat I have got from asking people to be more aware of the Youtube posts they make.
To really simplify – here is the script:

Me – film good solid magic that nobody can figure out

Fellow Magi – HOW dare you ask us that? Who do you think you are? What is your problem?

Does this make sense Steerspike? What is so outrageous that people aren’t hoping on board? Why do I have to defend against attacks that appear motivated by emotion? I have a feeling that the guilty ones are getting angry and speaking from an emotionally connected standpoint – rather than evaluating my words and their merit. Which if you understood the above encapsulated arguments – then you now understand that it’s a cry for strong technique – if ANYONE has a further problem with this – I don’t have time for discussing quality control with individuals with low standards to start.

 

[Steerpike]

Steerspike – the tone of “I asked for it” sounds very threatening. However, your post lacked in that set up, so I will just answer your questions kindly in hopes that you really were just trying to share.

There's only one s in my name. If you read the Gormenghast novels, you'd see why this is ironic.

Your first question – who was it targeted at: anyone that was making Youtube posts of magic.

What is the likelihood of most of these people reading it?

I did some checking around a few months back. Most of the types of videos you talked about had negligible views, few comments, and the person who made the video had quit magic not long after when they realized they actually had to practice.

Second question – is it ironic that I used Youtube videos to demonstrate my point –

No, it's ironic that in trying to combat exposure, you end up calling more attention to it and directing people to it on a public forum.

All joking aside – it seems like you just wanted to post to bring up you are teaching magic to children...GOOD FOR YOU. I have NO idea why you thought that would bother me, but sorry – I find it way off topic actually.

I was trying to make a point based on your vitriolic over-reaction to Guardian earlier. You seemed to have a minor stroke at the thought that anyone in the laity would learn that magic books exist.

If you haven't caught on yet, I was making fun of you.

They are reminded that what they say was “just a trick” and once they come to that conclusion, there is no magic.

I really hate the attitude that we have to assume our audiences are so stupid they actually believe we're supernatural.

For example, my family know it's all just tricks. But they enjoy participating in the moment. Knowing it's a trick, knowing how it's done, and knowing how to do it well are entirely different things.

In conclusion Steerspike, I am not getting “worked up”

Yes you are, because you felt the need to level an attack at someone who did nothing wrong.

I am surprised at the amount of heat I have got from asking people to be more aware of the Youtube posts they make.

What puts people off is the arrogance you project. That's how you're coming off, from one who knows.

 

[Morgan B]

Hey Steerpike,

Thanks for responding:

There's only one s in my name. If you read the Gormenghast novels, you'd see why this is ironic.

Sorry about that - let me call you by your real name - Alexander - hope you don't mind me calling you Alex.

What is the likelihood of most of these people reading it?

I have had 3 youth email me since I have made this post - and I made it on request from a youth that got into a discussion with me from another forum. If I have helped these 4 only, then the thread served it's purpose.

]I did some checking around a few months back. Most of the types of videos you talked about had negligible views, few comments, and the person who made the video had quit magic not long after when they realized they actually had to practice.

I have found videos with over 9 million views - and some with only 10...but isn't ONE too many? Also, I never leave comments on Youtube - but I can still view. It is great they realized they had to practice, but at what price to magic? Maybe if you jumped onto this thread and said, "yeah, cool - those are good guidelines" and "here are some things I would like to see” we could have worked together to make it better.
No, it's ironic that in trying to combat exposure, you end up calling more attention to it and directing people to it on a public forum.

Make sense to me Alex - this is a forum for MAGICIANS - and it is magicians that I think need to change this behaviour - where would you have liked me to air this concept? Sometimes you have to bring attention to the problem - or are you being narrow minded in your belief that education doesn't help us? Do you believe that the "inconvenient truth" documentary didn't help awareness of our environment...or did Gore just bring attention to create more problems? Just trying to discuss a concern, on a smaller scale of course.

I was trying to make a point based on your vitriolic over-reaction to Guardian earlier. You seemed to have a minor stroke at the thought that anyone in the laity would learn that magic books exist.

This conversation is a run over from a discussion I had with Gaurdian and you are misinterpreting my thoughts - perhaps on purpose to serve your need.
If you haven't caught on yet, I was making fun of you.

Then you are a small man - wtih a small mind - I was hoping for more - I could easily do the same to you, ridicule you - but really I think if you take time to think about what I said and touch on it's merit, rather than this perceived tone you are so concerned with, you may see that I do have some valid points.
I really hate the attitude that we have to assume our audiences are so stupid they actually believe we're supernatural.

I really hate athe attitude that because I want people to experience magic, I have to want people to believe I have supernatural "powers" - this is not what I said at all - again, read the Ortiz books I recommended to understand. In short, in magic we ask people to suspend their disblief - then slap them in the face for doing it. I just don't like to remind people about what they already think - "there is a secret - and it's my job to figure it out" rather than - who cares about the solutions, I want the journey of experiencing what looks like real magic...even though we all know it's not.

I find it funny you did't ask me more about this - but went on the attack - ISN'T THAT IRONIC that you are using the same tone, in concept, that you think I am using? Bit of a hippocrite aren't we?

For example, my family know it's all just tricks. But they enjoy participating in the moment. Knowing it's a trick, knowing how it's done, and knowing how to do it well are entirely different things.

Hmm, I would love for you to explain this more Alex - people DO know they are tricks - but that doesn't mean they can't experience wonder - leaving no explanation - until you explain yourself further - I would think that what you said is very confusing, so I look forward to this being lengthened.

Yes you are, because you felt the need to level an attack at someone who did nothing wrong.

If you are talking about my beefs with Gaurdian, understand that our conversations have run into PM's and you are not getting all the details - but we are friends...haha, or at least we are working on it. But really, that is not any of your concern, why do you feel the need to be his Knight in Shining Armor?

I don't agree with they way he deliver's the line at the end of his show - if you enjoyed it - here is a book to go find with all the answers in it. He isn't selling them. He isn't doing promo for Hugard and Braue - he is just reminding them at the end - Don't imagine - these are just tricks - I know the secrets, you do not - and they come from a book. It is like saying at a museum - the Mona Lisa, just comes from paint...and here is where to learn to paint it - I have no problem with people sharing - but I just felt that may not be the right time. If someone comes up and asks, because they are interested - for sure I would share.

What puts people off is the arrogance you project. That's how you're coming off, from one who knows.

I didn't appreicate this last line - outside of the fact you say you are trying to make fun of me - you then go and stab me at the end - very professional of you.

Here is the thing Alex - the difference between arrogance and confidence is arrogant people brag about something they have not acquired - confidence is relaying a message on something you have experience in - studied for well over 10 years, focused on in an academic setting both in personal life and at University level, and then put it into practice for that decade. It is sharing of experiences that can help us grow - I have done my research on Youtube magic - I have my opinions and facts on it - but really - the concept is from my first post - all the rest are rebuttals from people that have been more concerned with my tone then with the message of doing good strong magic - be it real life or on a medium that can be watch over and over again.

Thanks for taking the time to write Alex - I hope your next response if much kinder and professional in nature. I look forward to reading your expanded thoughts. Cheers.

 

[Shadow782]

Very good discussion, I just want to throw in a few of my opinions (because in truth thats what this all is)

All in all, youtube is necesarilly a curse to the magic community. While it does theoretically give new magicians a place to practice and ask for feedback, I've found that the un-magician internet is a horrible place to do this. Youtube is one of the most commonly visited websites on the net and poor performance of tricks can easily be found out. I've found that the best place to ask for feedback is simply to strangers on the street or other magician friends. As for srangers, if some guy walks up to him, does a magic trick and blows it, The spectator is usually entertained by your failure, or just shrugs, walks off, and forgets what just happened.

I know this because I'm currently testing out my new effect I've been working on where two spectators signatures switch cards. When I first tested out the effect, the mechanics were flawless, but I left out one important thing when I made the effect, and that was human interaction. So, my first presentation of the effect blew up in my face, as I did it to one of my friends (non-magician), and I didnt expect one of the reactions. So, three months later, When I had the effect smoothed out, I performed it to her and it was a hit. She had completely forgotten that I had blown the effect at its first trial. So where I'm going with this is that you want to practice to strangers or other magicians, especially for those with effects they created.

Another point that I think is important on this thread: The concept of spectators believeing in your magic. On this point I agree with Morgician completely (though I can't say I've read the Ortiz books). Another example if you will, Before I became a magician, I had the M5 system used on me. The effect was turning a penny into a dime. I was completely amazed, I didnt immediately seek an answer I was too awed by it. I already knew that the magician wasn't supernatural, as he was my friend, but nonetheless I revelled in the amazement of it. And on a completely unrelated note this what caused me to becme a magician, the ability to suspend disbelief for only a moment or two and to cause other people to feel the way I did.

Thank you

 

[Morgan B]

Shadow - thanks for sharing - great points and opinions - continued success in your magic.

 

[Steerpike]

I have had 3 youth email me since I have made this post - and I made it on request from a youth that got into a discussion with me from another forum. If I have helped these 4 only, then the thread served it's purpose.

Fair enough.

I have found videos with over 9 million views - and some with only 10...but isn't ONE too many?

Now ask yourself, how many of those are from the same bunch of teenagers actively looking for exposure? Of those, how many are just cheap brats who don't want to fork out the cash for a book or DVD, and how many are less fortunate types who aren't able to afford better learning material?

"There are lies, d*mned lies, and statistics."
-Benjamen Disraeli

Make sense to me Alex - this is a forum for MAGICIANS

Yes it is, but it is still accessible to the general public, and as such we must exercise a greater sense of tact.

I find it very telling of the general attitude among younger members here that they all rail against internet exposure with the same passion you do, but then in the next breath they rather openly talk about the methodology and workings of utility sleights such as the double lift.

Nathan Kranzo, Derren Brown, and Mark Edward all have sections of their sites which require you to correctly answer a question about magic history in order to access it. That is their prerogative, but it also allows them a certain degree of freedom.

Around here, a public forum, we must show more restraint.

Sometimes you have to bring attention to the problem - or are you being narrow minded in your belief that education doesn't help us?

The problem was not that you were pointing out that this happens, it's that you provided links to specific videos and said, "See? Eh, eh?"

Think about it, could there have been a better way to go about that?

This conversation is a run over from a discussion I had with Gaurdian and you are misinterpreting my thoughts - perhaps on purpose to serve your need.

I only call 'em like I see 'em.

but really I think if you take time to think about what I said and touch on it's merit, rather than this perceived tone you are so concerned with, you may see that I do have some valid points.

Again, I'm making a point. Nobody takes good advice if it comes from the mouth of someone they think is a jerk-off.

If you come off as arrogant and condescending, it doesn't matter how sound your logic is. People will contradict you just to spite you. Kind of like what's going on here right now between us.

In short, in magic we ask people to suspend their disblief - then slap them in the face for doing it.

I'm sorry... what?

I just don't like to remind people about what they already think - "there is a secret - and it's my job to figure it out" rather than - who cares about the solutions, I want the journey of experiencing what looks like real magic...even though we all know it's not.

Have you ever read The Secret Art of Magic?

Hmm, I would love for you to explain this more Alex - people DO know they are tricks - but that doesn't mean they can't experience wonder - leaving no explanation - until you explain yourself further - I would think that what you said is very confusing, so I look forward to this being lengthened.

At a Renaissance Festival last year, we went to see Doc Dixon who is a fantastic close-up and parlor magician. He did his version of Gazzo's cups and balls routine. My parents had seen me practicing and screwing up around the house enough that they knew exactly what things like false transfers and loads are. My dad himself knows a few sleights and owns a few gimmicks that he uses for visual aids in his business seminars.

They still enjoyed the performance. They enjoyed the showmanship, the entertainment value, and they enjoyed watching Doc being Doc.

I live in a city where about half the people are aware of the existence of the magic shop The Cuckoo's Nest, located in South Side on Carson Street, just a few doors down from the city's most popular nightclub. They know that magic shops and books exist. They don't care. They still watch guys like Doc Dixon and Nick Scarpino and Eric Starkey and Rick Maue and Paul Gertner perform because they like us. Isn't that what it all boils down to?

To further illustrate, I had an unbelievably annoying heckler last night. A 9-year-old boy caught one of my sleights because of a bad angle then proceeded to follow me around for an hour no matter what I or anyone else said and kept screaming out his theories for how I did all of my effects. He was always wrong, but he kept bragging about how much smarter he was than me and that he was a better magician than I was even though he couldn't perform anything.

What did the audience say? They repeatedly cut him off to tell him to shut up and leave. They didn't care what the secret was, they were having fun. Does knowing that I have a library of books at home change any of that? I would argue it doesn't.

If you are talking about my beefs with Gaurdian, understand that our conversations have run into PM's and you are not getting all the details

Again, fair enough.

But really, that is not any of your concern, why do you feel the need to be his Knight in Shining Armor?

He doesn't need me to defend him. I'm speaking for myself and my disapproval of your behaviour.

It is like saying at a museum - the Mona Lisa, just comes from paint...and here is where to learn to paint it

Most people are smart enough to know that just because you can mix paints like Di Vinci, doesn't mean you are Di Vinci.

Honestly, I think you're just projecting.

I didn't appreicate this last line - outside of the fact you say you are trying to make fun of me - you then go and stab me at the end - very professional of you.

I don't like to sugarcoat my words.

Here is the thing Alex - the difference between arrogance and confidence is arrogant people brag about something they have not acquired -

No, the arrogant do brag about that which they have acquired as well. They're just not secure in it, which is why they brag.

all the rest are rebuttals from people that have been more concerned with my tone then with the message of doing good strong magic

Again, you assume your logic is so great that people will ignore the tone. People don't do that. They will contadict you out of spite if you give them a reason not to like you.

 

[Morgan B]

I only call 'em like I see 'em.


I'm speaking for myself and my disapproval of your behaviour.

Again, you assume your logic is so great that people will ignore the tone. People don't do that. They will contadict you out of spite if you give them a reason not to like you.


Then I will assume everyone will ignore your arrogantly worded and ill suited post above, and not waste my time responding in length to someone that continually chastises for the same virtues he displays in his last two posts. Funny how you are mad at me for EXACTLY how your posts come across - we often hate in others what we see/hate in ourselves.

I was hoping to be friends, but you have made it difficult with your tone of dismissal and continual attacks of how I am saying something, rather than the message – my points still remain valid – and nothing that you have experienced using your family as yardstick on how "everyday people" think can be generalized. They are tainted – as you do magic for them – they appreciate it from another side.

Please read the books I have asked you to – and I will do the same – PM when you have something kind to say and can focus on the concept at hand.