A business proposition

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by gyopi, Apr 8, 2013.

  1. #1 gyopi, Apr 8, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 8, 2013
    I want to release something similar to 5 by Marcus Eddie and Daniel Garcia ware we both pitch in a couple of our tricks and I would like to release it in two volumes so that we can each release one of the volumes on our profiles. I would like any magician who is interested to do this with me on the wire.
    -i have never released anything but know what i am doing
    -we will each make money for each vol. we release
    -email me at calebbowers97@yahoo.com for further info
  2. Well with that proposition out of the way, the first question is, "Who are you?" Have you published anything before? What about this deal is so beneficial? Why should someone work with you instead of doing their own thing?

    You want to treat this like a business, those are questions you should already have an answer to.
  3. thanks.ill edit the post to include all of that.
  4. Okay, dude, I'm telling you this to help you. This still sounds really amateurish. You've never marketed an effect before but you know what you're doing? That's a bit of a hard sell. Hate to tell you this, but you're going to have to prove through action that you've got the goods. Then you can try to get collaborators. Marcus and Daniel did a collaborative project because this is not the first time either of them have been around the block.

    Telling people they're going to make money on this is a dubious claim at best. Lots of people put out a product and make almost nothing or even lose money on it. How do you know that this project will sell? What need are you fulfilling? What makes your project a better choice than others? Who is the target market? What do they need and how are you giving it to them?
  5. If you are making a business proposition proof read your posts for spelling and grammar. If your initial pitch is not presented well it does't bode well for the rest of the project.

    Every time I read a poorly written post I understand how Steerpike feels watching a poorly filmed video.
  6. Thank you! People seem to think that on the internet spelling and grammar don't matter. Yes they do. They think that outside of English class no one cares about capital letters and proper punctuation. Yes they do. They act like the ability to put one word in front of another is impressive enough. No it isn't.

    Unfortunately, I don't think most people will ever figure this out until they overhear their co-workers talking about, "that guy," who writes the incomprehensible emails and memos.
  7. What exactly are you trying to sell? So far we have seen nothing but a post that says "Hey, guys I want to make a magic DVD like two reputable names in the industry! Would you be interested?"

    The short answer is......No.

    The long answer is...... No, because you haven't shown us any product. Just a bunch of meaningless words... As to the concept of it being similar to what Daniel Garcia or Marcus Eddie did.. I still say no. Because I have a feeling you don't have any idea of what goes into the making on actual DVD. I'm talking about expenses that go beyond having a camera aimed at your hands for effects.

    You need to be able to explain the routines in clear concrete detail, you need a good microphone, a damn good camera, and you need to have some sort of personality. Which from your post, I can deduce that you most likely do not have ANY of those expenses thought out at all.

    If all else fails... submit your effects to Genii magazine or Magic Magazine and see what they tell you about them. If they are good, and somewhat original. You may get them published, if they are not.. Then you know the answer..
  8. #8 Vinnie C., Apr 8, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 8, 2013
    While I generally agree with the above, I would like to add another take:

    If you're entering the world of entrepreneurship or trying to build a business or income stream for yourself, the first most important thing is action - and the second most important thing is the result of action applied over time, which is experience.

    In the 4 years I've been gone from the world of card handling I have built 3 successful businesses and grown a successful acting career, so please take this as honest advice.

    Want to get into this business? You have two basic options:

    1. Start solo. Study marketing, how to communicate clearly (both written and spoken language), and know your craft well (in this case, magic).

    From here you can get experience by continuously applying yourself on a daily basis. Produce and market your own effects, either via the Wire, YouTube, your own site, or some other source (or even combinations thereof). You'll see what works, what doesn't, and you'll refine your methods over time.

    From there (and even during this process) you can find and network with other ambitious minds with complimentary skills (I'll get into this just below) who you can form partnerships with and thus continue to expand.

    2. You could also - right now - find someone with a different but complimentary skillset to your own. You know magic? Connect with editors and producers. You know how to market? Connect with web designers and videographers. Etc. Get the idea?

    You want to connect with people who fill in your gaps. Some people think they can do everything and be great at it - the world doesn't often work that way. The way you will see the biggest success is by finding people who help to complete the knowledge and skill that you lack in, while you complete the knowledge and skill they may lack in, and then making something great. This is called a "Joint Venture" in the business world.

    Remember that you don't necessarily have to choose one of the above over the other. Do what makes sense. Combine them if necessary. Market on your own while still connecting with people who have complimentary skills. Etc, etc.

    If you have any questions, feel free to shoot me a PM. But these are the basics.

    That could be a good idea. I don't have experience with submitting material to magazines, but it may be a good way to get something published. Worth looking into!

  9. I'm glad someone else caught this before I went off on "ware" vs. "where". . . at least he did want to "wear" someone. . .

    As to the whole "business deal" Steerpike is 100% on the money; you've got to become established and "trusted" when it comes to product and knowledge. Far too many young people want to see their name on a book or video these days because it's so apparently easy to do. . . in other words, they fall for the assumption before seeing the reality (which you're learning a bit about via this conversation).

    I've been a recognized writer and contributor to magic for over two decades now and the first major collaboration project I've done was a book no one made any money on; an introduction to the Swami Device. Granted, I've contributed to other people's projects here and there, but I'm trying to help you see some reality; it takes time and people need to get to know you.

    When it comes to the money that can be made. . . GUESS AGAIN!

    Sure, we've all heard about guys like Sankey and the big $$$s he pulls in on a single release but there is a reason for his success; he's been doing this stuff for a very long time. He's an established name in the biz and has proven himself time and again when it comes to delivering clever, easy to work effects. I'm betting that he's given away loads of stuff in the past, just to build that reputation, I know that I have and most of the writers out there who create magic have as well. Bottom line is however, my best selling tome has barely put $5,000.00 in my pocket over the past 6 years it's been out.

    Why? After all, Richard Webster wrote the introduction to it . . .

    First of all, I don't have the funds to pay for all the advertising nor do I feel it pragmatic; to me it is better that a few use the information to their own advantage rather than my selling my soul for industry based popularity. I know that many think this peculiar, especially given how financially tight things are for me most of the time, but I am a bit of a purest when it comes to my areas of specialty.

    If you want to build on your name/brand then start making small contributions to things like The Wire, the various eZines that are now on line as well as the "legit" publications out there like MAGIC, Genii, Linking Rings, MUM, etc. NO, you won't make a dime off of these contributions but you will be getting your name out there and people, over time, will start talking about how clever you are or aren't. If you get positive word of mouth you will be encouraged by others to do more work. That is when you know that it's time to pull your first book together; not with a couple of tricks but with a collection of over a dozen effects and routines you've created. Frequently this includes key improvements on the stuff you gave away in those earlier articles.

    Don't run out and shoot your load too early in the game. Take your time, listen to those that have the experience and track record for doing the work you wish to do.
  10. I guess im really eager to start publishing my tricks. Just to be honest im not in it for the money, more so to just do what i love. But thanks for all of the advice. But another thing is that i want to publish my ideas but i just feel like i have zero resources like a good camera and video editing skills, but im just going to keep at it.
  11. It's a growing process. You can network and partner up with people who have access to this kind of equipment, borrow said equipment from friends / family, save up money (via a job or whatever else) and get the equipment yourself, etc. Lots of possibilities.

  12. Ok, there is a huge difference between producing a video and getting published, so which is it you're actually wanting to do?

    Publishing means that your write out a manuscript, have someone proof read and help you edit it as well as fact check your details when it comes to historic accuracy and "originality" of the material (brace yourself, chances are quite high that you've not invented anything even remotely "new", especially if you have less than 5 years experience in studying magic let alone actual performance).

    Secondly, I and others have warned you about the ego trip of running out and getting published just because you've had a brain fart that you thought smelled good. Again, most of what we come up with WILL NOT BE "original" or strong enough a "twist" to older concepts, to be viable and thus "valuable" to the industry. It is always best to field test your ideas for a year or two, allowing a handful of WORKING associates to do the same -- grind the routine into the dirt and find out the problems it has and how to refine it. This is how magic is properly cultivated and made ready for the general market. Those that take short cuts are generally doomed.

    I know I'm sounding cruel and un-supportive but the opposite is actually true; I'm trying to help you to see that the stronger advantage will come by way of patience and building up a reputation as an effect developer and performer. I'm trying to help you understand why taking the proven path to success is wiser than rushing into things because you can.

    Best of luck!
  13. The thing is that it is much easier to have something published in print than it is for it be a published video.

    I will ask you this. Have you tested any of your ideas? Like actually worked them for tons and tons of people over time.
  14. I have an issue with that statement. I've worked in the book industry most of my adult life and I would argue that it is not easier to have something published. It may be easier to have something printed but there is a big difference. It is becoming very straight forward as far as self-publishing and there are many place that make it sound like they are 'publishing' a book when in fact they are taking your money and printing it for you.

    A publisher works with an author matching them up with an editor (and illustrator/photographer if needed), they design proper covers, do publicity (if you are luck) or at lest have it properly listed and presented to booksellers. A very simple distinction is they do not charge authors. Most give the authors an advance and once the book has sold through the advance the author earns royalties on the title. It is most certainly not easy to get published.

    There are now many companies that will charge an upfront fee to do some of the tasks that a publisher would do but in those cases you are self-publishing when it comes right down to it. Some of these companies produce books that are every bit as good as books published by 'the publishers' but you are paying them up front and so their true business focus is getting more authors not selling more book. Self publishing can actually work well for niche markets where you out going out and hand-selling the book yourself but it takes a tremendous amount of work on the authors part.

    Then there is the e-book market which is evolving very fast and has its own set of quirks.

    Bit of a rant I am sure but it would be like me taking a video, tossing it on youtube and calling myself a Producer.
  15. Let's remember, though, that for the purposes of this industry and any printed training material a person would release - we're rarely talking about something as complex as the above. That is certainly the process for getting a standard book published and out the door, especially when more broadly distributed.

    However, most people in this industry do and have gotten by (whether we're talking about a book or a set of notes) with self-publishing and simply distributing via their website, other magic websites, Amazon, etc. Given how niche this field is, there is no need for it to be grander than that.

    That's the thing, though - this is a niche market. Very niche. People sell online, via their websites or other online distribution portals. eBooks can also work very well in this niche. As long as people want the content and you can get it in front of them - that's always the challenging part. xD

  16. There are valid points to be made either way.

    The advantages of working with established publishing houses or production companies are numerous. You have a crew of specialists who are all professionals at their jobs so you don't have to worry about things like typsetting, color correcting shots, etc. On the other hand, I've known enough professional authors and videographers to tell you that, even at the best of times, the process of getting a project published can feel like ****ting broken glass non-stop for anywhere between 8-16 weeks, sometimes longer.

    Self-publishing eliminates a lot of the hassles associated with that process, but it also means that you have another set of problems to face. While you will retain creative control to a much greater degree, you will also find yourself juggling more tasks in more different disciplines and doing all of the legwork for legal affairs and such yourself. If you think you can handle this many tasks, which on a bad day feels a bit like trying to chop down a sequoia tree with your face, then the final product can be rewarding enough to make it all worth it.
  17. #17 Craig Browning, Apr 12, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2013
    I've heard the argument over going through a publisher for years and I've also seen many a writer get screwed in the process, and by some noted publishing houses. Sorry but when someone is paid thirty cents for every book that sells after they've done all the footwork (research), the labor of writing, etc. while the publisher and its affiliates pocket the rest of the funds made . . . well, I consider that a bit criminal. There's at least one magic based publisher doing this very thing, which is fine for those that are retired and are looking for some minor return on things but stinks for those of us that want to see an honest return on their efforts. My primary publishers giving me a 50/50 split.

    Yes, I know of writers that do just fine with the other course on things, but I find it a difficult hook to swallow.

    I do agree with the necessity for an actual editor when it comes to book projects and I'm not talking about so-called "proof readers", most of whom just want a free copy of the book. An editor will actually work with your material, making corrections where needed but doing so in a way that retains your "voice" and meaning. They will likewise come to you for clarification on things helping you better define the information being shared and escape things like repetition (which I'm terrible for).

    "sigh" sorry for going off, but as a writer I do get quite miffed when I hear the sales pitch made by publishers who've yet to catch up with the current trends and advantages of the world.
  18. Of course. I test all of my ideas.I perform them multiple times every day.But i agree with everything you guys are saying.i will be patient .
  19. Patience is good - but it's important to be active. Build a name for yourself in the community. Release videos, perform, improve, refine, get stuff on the Wire to help test market viability, scale up, scale up, scale up.

    It'll take time for sure, but that time has to be filled with you being ambitious, active and dedicated to your goals.


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