Am I the only one who thinks that the Classic Pass and Classic Force are overrated?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Akshay_The_Alva, Apr 16, 2019 at 4:29 AM.

  1. I, personally feel that the classic pass and force are highly overrated.
    I use the riffle force, and no one has ever found out.
    Furthermore, the classic force does not have a 100% success rate, like the backslip force.
    As for the classic pass there are many more easier and better controls out there like the Allerton control.

    Give me your thoughts.

    Thanks.
     
  2. The classic force is popular for its impossibility. If the person tries to back track, they might think that riffling in order choose a card was suspicious. But even though things like psy forces or the classic force arent 100% accurate, when you correctly hit them, you’ll have a miracle with no explanation that if done correctly, might even fool experienced magicians.
    The classic pass is one of the most versatile moves in card conjuring, the possiblities that you would have with a classic pass can’t be compared to any other move(except for the double lift maybe). But there are a few critical problems with this move that make most people shy away from it: It’s really hard to really master the move, and to execute it with 100% accuracy.
    Also, this move is meant to be performed in real life ( and not on camera ) in an offbeat moment. Even if you’ve spent hundreds of hours on this move, you can’t make it truly invisible, or at least invisible enough to be done under fire. As you said yourself, there are some amazing invisible controls like the Allerton control which could be done even if people are buring your hands, and require much
    less practice, but if you learn the psychology behind this move correctly, and put enough effort into it that it wouldn’t be too slow or too loud, it would be one of the best moves you can ever use in card magic.
     
    nira and Gabriel Z. like this.
  3. "Overrated" isn't necessarily the right word. The Classic Pass is excellent for what it does and when it was created. Remember, back then cards were varnished card board. They didn't just slide around like they do now. So you had to do things like move whole packets of cards around. The issue is that now it's used as some kind of badge of honor.

    I have a pretty good classic pass, but I never use it. There are far more efficient sleights for my purposes. But what it comes down to is choosing the right tool for the job. Sometimes you need a sledge hammer.

    The Classic Force is reliable - if one puts the work into it and understands what makes it work. I have personally watched Shoot Ogawa classic for the same card multiple times in a row. With the person choosing the card holding the deck, 6 feet away. Watch guys like Dani Da'Ortiz - he basically hands the card to the volunteer and they think they chose it.

    It's not a physical technique, it's a psychological one, and that's why people think it's unreliable - they don't understand it.
     
  4. That. Exactly. I've been at lectures with Shoot and Dani where they have taught the classic force. I've learned so much from those two guys. If you use the right techniques, it is 100%.
     
    Antonio Diavolo and Mr_ARPY like this.
  5. That was the same lecture where Shoot muscle passed a coin in my sleeve. Good times.
     
  6. The classic force is great. I think when people imagine picking a card from a magician this is what they have in their head. a riffle force or slip cut are fine but I think that they are more likely to cause suspicion because their process is going to look new and different when compared to what an audience is expecting. Also, I love Dani's work on it as well. I perform his deckless classic force often and it kills!

    I can do several passes but I prefer to use the turn overpass most often. For my routines, it is the most natural. Watching people like Dan Harlan and Dani Daortiz do the pass in performance is very interesting. Their use of the move is rarely smooth or invisible, but psychologically it is inconsequential. I think that the riffles and flourishes that accompany a pass like that destroy its low profile.
     
    Mr_ARPY likes this.
  7. I think the classic force can be great if done well.

    The Jerx did a study on the most deceptive forces. He simulated a bunch of forces (so there was no chance someone could catch onto the method and give it a 0) and then asked people to rank how fair they felt on a scale of 1-100 and took the averages. The Classic Force was the lowest and the cross cut force was ranked the highest.
    One thing he points out (and it's something I have noticed as well) is that the classic force is almost exactly what most laymens' perception of a force is. You shove one card into their hand.

    I don't think this is representative of EVERY classic force though. Even though the Jerx only simulated it, thus making it perfectly clean in the eyes of the test audience, it was still ranked very low.

    A truly great classic force requires a good amount of presentation skill to make it seem casual, natural, and fair.

    Same goes for the pass, it might be overused by some people, but it's great when used in the right circumstances.
     
    Mr_ARPY likes this.
  8. I agree with a ton of the stuff that these guys have said here.

    Like they said, the pass and the classic force are great when used correctly. However, the mere fact that so many people do it for a camera or to show off their skill and then mess it up in performance pretty much proves that yes, they are overrated.

    I say let them be overrated, and perform it correctly. Can't remember who it was, but I once read a story about a magician at a convention who oversaw a bunch of people showing each-other their passes. When he said that they were performing it wrong, they handed him a deck and said that if he's so good, he should show them. After a bit of waiting and talking, they say that he should show it already, to which he replied that he already did. He had worked on the patter and the audience direction, which is why his pass came out perfectly.

    They really don't need to be bone crushing moves. They just need to be performed correctly. In themselves, they aren't tricks, but the fact that some people treat them like tricks is why they're overrated.
     
    Antonio Diavolo and Mr_ARPY like this.
  9. I'm very much a skeptic of anything based on a "study." Read the descriptions carefully and the two highest performing forces are the two where the performer gave the audience to change the card. I have a lot more questions about the validity of the "study": 1) did the vary the order; 2) was the cross cut always after the classic?; 3) how did they "mimic" the classic force?; 4) does performing a bunch of forces in a row and rating them accurately reflect how a force is performed in performance?;5) does asking if something is "free and fair" (like many bad magicians do in their performance) make the audience more skeptical?; and 6) are the 22 people a good sample and cross section.

    My spectators simply take any card from the spread out deck in front of them - no shoving required.

    P.S. Try using the classic force on your dog... its great practice.
     
    Antonio Diavolo, ZackF and Mr_ARPY like this.
  10. Those are all really fair arguments about the study. A lot of them he doesn't address.
    But responding to your point 3), according to the site, he spread the cards in front of them and had them take one as they went by. So basically what most would consider traditional classic force.
    I do think the study could have been more well constructed now that you mention it.

    Just out of curiosity, whose classic force do you use?
     
  11. I guess what I was questioning is the "pushing a card toward me" sentiment. There are subtle motions in a classic force that are not present in a simple "spread and choose" selection. Did the emulate the "spread and choose" selection or add the subtle additional motions to simulate a classic force?

    I started with the explanation in Card College and added subtleties from Shoot Ogawa (mostly physical) and Dani DaOrtiz (mostly psychological).
     

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