An ethics question

[WitchDocIsIn]

So, a while ago, I was short on cash and was thinking about selling some of the magic DVDs and such that I don't use or have never used.

This got me thinking.

Obviously pirating magic is unethical. One is gaining a product without compensating its creator/publisher/etc.

But what about re-selling magic? If you think about it, the same thing happens. The creator is not getting anything from that sale, you can't just unlearn the secret (unless it's been long enough that you genuinely forget), and someone else will be learning it. Therefore someone is learning the secret without it benefiting the creator.

The same thought can be applied to out-of-print books or other materials. Like Pure Effect and Absolute Magic. If I find them on eBay and pay the $300 price tag or whatever, Derren Brown gets nothing from that sale.

However, restricting the transactions to purchases does somewhat limit the degree to which the information can be disseminated, so there's that.

Thoughts?

 

[Rneogy]

Well re-selling things happen all the time... I don't really see any problem with re-selling... I mean the property is yours. The material is not... If you get what I'm saying. You can't sell it and call it yours...

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

You're not actually backing up anything you're saying. Just because something happens all the time doesn't mean it's okay. People shoplift all the time, is that okay? People pirate all the time, is that ok?

What I'm saying is this: Say I buy Extreme Burn. I learn how to make the gimmick, I learn how to do the trick. Then I sell that DVD to someone else. I still know how to make that gimmick, I still know how to do the trick. Now someone else will be learning how to do the trick and make the gimmick, and Richard Sanders won't see any profit from it. From Sanders' point of view, re-selling his DVD is the same as pirating it, really.

 

[worldwideme]

heavy...

I see where your coming from with the still in print magic material. i don't think such is OK. If its still on the market for the creator to make money from, then we shouldn't profit from it.

but,

when it comes to out of print articles like absolute magic. The creator isn't putting anything out to make money from. so the only thing you selling it does, is make you money, and distribute their ideas to more people. possibly earning them a rapport with a new magician who will be more apt to purchase a new product.

 

[Luis Vega]

You're not actually backing up anything you're saying. Just because something happens all the time doesn't mean it's okay. People shoplift all the time, is that okay? People pirate all the time, is that ok?

What I'm saying is this: Say I buy Extreme Burn. I learn how to make the gimmick, I learn how to do the trick. Then I sell that DVD to someone else. I still know how to make that gimmick, I still know how to do the trick. Now someone else will be learning how to do the trick and make the gimmick, and Richard Sanders won't see any profit from it. From Sanders' point of view, re-selling his DVD is the same as pirating it, really.

I see your point..but we can´t do anything about it...from the point of view of going with Sanders and giving him some money back...

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

I'm not looking for a solution, I'm looking for thoughts on whether the idea of reselling magic that we have learned is ethical. If yes: Why? If no: Why not?

Come on, people! Discuss! Theorize! Philosophize!

 

[Silver]

Well, on that note, is pirating okay for out of print books? Whether you download or buy it off ebay, the creator is still not making any profit out of it.

 

[descartes]

So, a while ago, I was short on cash and was thinking about selling some of the magic DVDs and such that I don't use or have never used.

This got me thinking.

Obviously pirating magic is unethical. One is gaining a product without compensating its creator/publisher/etc.

But what about re-selling magic? If you think about it, the same thing happens. The creator is not getting anything from that sale, you can't just unlearn the secret (unless it's been long enough that you genuinely forget), and someone else will be learning it. Therefore someone is learning the secret without it benefiting the creator.

Short answer - There is nothing wrong with reselling magic.

Long Answer - We often buy things based on a single paragraph review or on edited performance videos. The real workings are sometimes a big disappointment and sometimes it turns out that a trick isn't going to work for you but might work for someone else. Why not sell something if you are sure it isn't useful to you but it might be useful to somebody else?

Why does a purchase (of anything, not just magic) have to be a binding lifetime decision that you regret forever but can do nothing about? That doesn't sound sensible to me.

The same thought can be applied to out-of-print books or other materials. Like Pure Effect and Absolute Magic. If I find them on eBay and pay the $300 price tag or whatever, Derren Brown gets nothing from that sale.

However, restricting the transactions to purchases does somewhat limit the degree to which the information can be disseminated, so there's that.

Thoughts?

Derren Brown got what he could when he sold the book the first time. Why is he entitled to the cash from the buyer reselling the same book several years in the future? If I buy a car from a dealer and sell it a few years later, the dealer doesn't get any cash from me.

If Derren Brown wants to cash in again, all he has to do is to reprint it and people will buy it if they really want it.

 

[Nino]

Good topic Christopher.

I was actually thinking about the same thing not too long ago and I never came up with a actual answer. I think it can go both ways. People will have different opinions about this. On the note of out-of-print books I think selling them are not bad at all. If the author wants the money then they can simply reprint the book again.

On the other topic of reselling dvds I don't really know.....I have to think about that and come back and post my thoughts.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

Ah, a full answer. Thank you.

Short answer - There is nothing wrong with reselling magic.

Long Answer - We often buy things based on a single paragraph review or on edited performance videos. The real workings are sometimes a big disappointment and sometimes it turns out that a trick isn't going to work for you but might work for someone else. Why not sell something if you are sure it isn't useful to you but it might be useful to somebody else?

Why does a purchase (of anything, not just magic) have to be a binding lifetime decision that you regret forever but can do nothing about? That doesn't sound sensible to me.



Derren Brown got what he could when he sold the book the first time. Why is he entitled to the cash from the buyer reselling the same book several years in the future? If I buy a car from a dealer and sell it a few years later, the dealer doesn't get any cash from me.

If Derren Brown wants to cash in again, all he has to do is to reprint it and people will buy it if they really want it.

The problem I see with this is that you're not realizing what's being sold when magic is purchased. We're not buying the paper a book is printed on. We're not buying the disc that holds the video. We're buying the information contained therein. Once you've learned the secret to Box Monster, you can't unlearn it (until you completely forget, which isn't likely).

It's difficult to draw parallels here, because it's kind of a unique situation. But say I go to a restaurant and order a meal. I enjoy the meal while I'm eating it, but I get home and it makes me ill. Not because of poor preparation, but because of something like lactose intolerance. I can't go back to the restaurant and get my money back. They didn't mess up at all. They gave me what I asked for. Why should they lose a sale because of something totally out of their control?

The point I'm trying to make here is that you can't unlearn what you've learned, so if you pass it on you're just giving the secret away to more people that haven't paid for it.

Now, one could just never use the material. I have serious doubts that this would work, though, because little things creep in where you least expect them. I can't remember how many times I've taken a subtlety from one trick or move and applied it to another, totally unrelated trick or move.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

Good topic Christopher.

I was actually thinking about the same thing not too long ago and I never came up with a actual answer. I think it can go both ways. People will have different opinions about this. On the note of out-of-print books I think selling them are not bad at all. If the author wants the money then they can simply reprint the book again.

On the other topic of reselling dvds I don't really know.....I have to think about that and come back and post my thoughts.

I've actually been mulling this for months now. I still have all the stuff I was thinking about selling in a plastic bag three feet from my computer, awaiting my decision.

I do think that reselling out of print material isn't a bad thing, for the reasons stated. The original creator isn't going to lose anything from the sale, and by selling it you're still limiting the number of people privy to the information.

 

[Luis Vega]

I'm not looking for a solution, I'm looking for thoughts on whether the idea of reselling magic that we have learned is ethical. If yes: Why? If no: Why not?

Come on, people! Discuss! Theorize! Philosophize!

I think it´s fair but not square...

after all the dvd is yours, so if you want to sell it, it´s your choice to make and I don´t think you are doing harm...because after all the person you are selling it, is also respecting the art, because he could easily download it but he prefers to buy it, maybe to a cheaper price, but how can you know he doesn´t have enough money to buy a new one...he respects the art, and instead of downloading it somewhere else, he tries his best to respect the artists by not supporting piracy..

and so do you..

 

[Nino]

I was thinking Christoper. In your OP you said you were short on cash. Okay what if you really need some money for a emergency? Something goes up and you need money really bad. Only have one option and that option is to sell some dvds you never use. In that kind of situation I will sell the dvds. If people say its unethical and what not I will say screw that! I needed the money so I sold my old dvds. I wasn't going to lost my car/house because I wanted to respect the creator. Heck the creator himself well do the something.

Again its a nasty situation if that really happens.

 

[WitchDocIsIn]

I was thinking Christoper. In your OP you said you were short on cash. Okay what if you really need some money for a emergency? Something goes up and you need money really bad. Only have one option and that option is to sell some dvds you never use. In that kind of situation I will sell the dvds. If people say its unethical and what not I will say screw that! I needed the money so I sold my old dvds. I wasn't going to lost my car/house because I wanted to respect the creator. Heck the creator himself well do the something.

Again its a nasty situation if that really happens.

In all fairness I 'needed' the cash to buy other magic

I know people that sold lots of magic to pay for something else that came along in their life. (A movie, actually. As in, making one, not buying one).

The problem I see with the philosophy of "The DVD is yours" is that you're not really buying the DVD. You're not buying an entertainment item when you purchase magic. You're buying information. It just happens to be presented on a DVD, or in a book or pamphlet or whatever. This creates a unique situation where the item that is bought cannot really be passed on completely.

When you sell a car, you can no longer drive that car. You don't get the benefit from it any more. When you sell a movie DVD, you can't watch that movie any more. When you sell a book, you can't re-read the story. Get it? When you buy magic and learn it, then sell off that material, you've already got the information in your head. So that information can still benefit you down the road, even if you've sold the original media upon which it was presented.

Let's try an imaginative exercise. Say someone created a violin as good as a Stradivarius. Bob buys one, and it sounds so beautiful when he plays that he gets tons more gigs. Then, one day, Bob wakes up and there's two violins. Exact copies. He sells one copy to someone else, but keeps the other one so he can keep getting the money for the gigs.

The creator of that violin profited justly from the transaction with Bob. But all of his hard work in creating a perfect violin is not rewarded when Bob sells an exact copy to someone else.

That is what's happening when we resell magic. Albeit in a stretched metaphor kind of way. We purchase something, we benefit from it, we pass it on, but we continue benefiting from it. The creator gets rewarded for his hard work for the first purchase, but not the second.

 

[descartes]

Ah, a full answer. Thank you.

The problem I see with this is that you're not realizing what's being sold when magic is purchased. We're not buying the paper a book is printed on. We're not buying the disc that holds the video. We're buying the information contained therein. Once you've learned the secret to Box Monster, you can't unlearn it (until you completely forget, which isn't likely).

It's difficult to draw parallels here, because it's kind of a unique situation. But say I go to a restaurant and order a meal. I enjoy the meal while I'm eating it, but I get home and it makes me ill. Not because of poor preparation, but because of something like lactose intolerance. I can't go back to the restaurant and get my money back. They didn't mess up at all. They gave me what I asked for. Why should they lose a sale because of something totally out of their control?

Your restaurant analogy is not a good one for what we are discussing. You can't resell a meal that you have eaten.

I'm a little puzzled about your argument about a person losing a sale based on something out of their control. Nobody is guaranteed to sell all the stuff they have manufactured (at least not in capitalist societies). From a legal standpoint, being deprived of potential sales is a hard thing to pin down.

Suppose I make it a hobby to stand outside a restaurant and discourage every passer by from eating there. Am I guilty of stealing? I would say no. I am depriving the restaurant of prospective customers, but I am not stealing anything.

Lets say I buy a car, use it for a year, then sell it. Does the car manufacturer consider this a lost sale? Maybe. Am I guilty of stealing because I sold my my car? No.

People lose sales for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes, the products are just bad. Sometimes, the advertising was misleading even if the product is not completely useless. Sometimes there are alternatives. There can be a thousand reasons why a potential sale was lost. A lost sale is not the same as theft and potential sales are hard to measure anyway.

You want to ensure that nobody resells magic? The only solution might be to make a product that is so good that very very few people will ever think of selling it after they buy it. Make sure it has the highest production values, is targeted towards the right consumers and delivers good value for money. Want a concrete example - look for used copies of the Zarrow Book by David Ben. You will not find a copy on ebay.

The point I'm trying to make here is that you can't unlearn what you've learned, so if you pass it on you're just giving the secret away to more people that haven't paid for it.

Now, one could just never use the material. I have serious doubts that this would work, though, because little things creep in where you least expect them. I can't remember how many times I've taken a subtlety from one trick or move and applied it to another, totally unrelated trick or move.

I fully realize that the secret and the right to use it are part of what you pay for. If you are concerned about the morals of using the knowledge from that trick which you have now sold, the only solution I can think of is to stop doing that trick. As for subtleties that creep in elsewhere, I don't have a solution. I have never had reason to worry about that.

 

[Nino]

In all fairness I 'needed' the cash to buy other magic

I know people that sold lots of magic to pay for something else that came along in their life. (A movie, actually. As in, making one, not buying one).

The problem I see with the philosophy of "The DVD is yours" is that you're not really buying the DVD. You're not buying an entertainment item when you purchase magic. You're buying information. It just happens to be presented on a DVD, or in a book or pamphlet or whatever. This creates a unique situation where the item that is bought cannot really be passed on completely.

When you sell a car, you can no longer drive that car. You don't get the benefit from it any more. When you sell a movie DVD, you can't watch that movie any more. When you sell a book, you can't re-read the story. Get it? When you buy magic and learn it, then sell off that material, you've already got the information in your head. So that information can still benefit you down the road, even if you've sold the original media upon which it was presented.

Let's try an imaginative exercise. Say someone created a violin as good as a Stradivarius. Bob buys one, and it sounds so beautiful when he plays that he gets tons more gigs. Then, one day, Bob wakes up and there's two violins. Exact copies. He sells one copy to someone else, but keeps the other one so he can keep getting the money for the gigs.

The creator of that violin profited justly from the transaction with Bob. But all of his hard work in creating a perfect violin is not rewarded when Bob sells an exact copy to someone else.

That is what's happening when we resell magic. Albeit in a stretched metaphor kind of way. We purchase something, we benefit from it, we pass it on, but we continue benefiting from it. The creator gets rewarded for his hard work for the first purchase, but not the second.

I see where you are coming from Christoper. Like I said in my first post people will have different opinions on it. The way you said it gave me a more clear idea....now I need to think about this. Well its late and I have to do my AP History homework for the summer. I will think about this and post more thoughts.

 

[JetEyeNight]

Have you guys checked out the magician's oath lately? I think that reselling trade secrets is uneithical. Selling a thumb tip or invisible string or magician's wax, or your tarantula is different. These are just tools which are no good without the illusion to go with them. However reselling a secret that you've learned is not fair to the creator. I say, once you've purchased your license (purchasing a copy of the dvd) to perform the effect, that's it. The license is non-transferable. You can't sell your license to someone else.


This is the updated magician's oath. It states you cannot sell the materials, ideas, principles, trade secrets, or presentations of others without their consent. This means even if you purchased a COPY of the effect, you are still not authorized to sell that copy, without concent.

If accepted, I agree to elevate the art of magic, abide by the constitution, by-laws, code of ethics and rituals of The Society of American Magicians. I will cooperate with the Society in the promotion of its objectives, promote harmony and advance the ethics of the profession.

I will not condone the dissemination of trade secrets and principles related to magicians or magic effects with no effort or expectation by the recipient to obtain or acquire the information. I will not expose the secrets and principles of magic, nor will I support those who do. I will not copy, imitate, manufacture or sell the materials, ideas, principles, trade secrets or presentations of others without consent.

I will treat all my fellow compeers and all magicians with respect, encouraging fellowship, unity and cooperation.

 

[descartes]

Have you guys checked out the magician's oath lately? I think that reselling trade secrets is uneithical. Selling a thumb tip or invisible string or magician's wax, or your tarantula is different. These are just tools which are no good without the illusion to go with them. However reselling a secret that you've learned is not fair to the creator. I say, once you've purchased your license (purchasing a copy of the dvd) to perform the effect, that's it. The license is non-transferable. You can't sell your license to someone else.

Let us back up for a second here and analyze things rationally. An item is not a trade secret if it has been published. Consider the Coca Cola Company and the famous coke formula. This formula has always been under lock and key. In order to get the formula, you would effectively have to break and enter. Also, the people who know the formula are obliged not to tell it to anyone else. If the originator of the formula had decided to include it in a book of recipes (for argument's sake), he would have no grounds for claiming it is a trade secret later.

So yes, reselling trade secrets is unethical, but tricks published in books or DVDs are not trade secrets in the strictest sense.

Also, this business about performing licenses is moot unless the seller makes the buyer sign a contract saying that explicitly. Such things restrict the freedom of the buyer and therefore should be explicit (IMHO). Few close up magic tricks come with such a contract.

This is the updated magician's oath. It states you cannot sell the materials, ideas, principles, trade secrets, or presentations of others without their consent. This means even if you purchased a COPY of the effect, you are still not authorized to sell that copy, without concent.

If accepted, I agree to elevate the art of magic, abide by the constitution, by-laws, code of ethics and rituals of The Society of American Magicians. I will cooperate with the Society in the promotion of its objectives, promote harmony and advance the ethics of the profession.

I will not condone the dissemination of trade secrets and principles related to magicians or magic effects with no effort or expectation by the recipient to obtain or acquire the information. I will not expose the secrets and principles of magic, nor will I support those who do. I will not copy, imitate, manufacture or sell the materials, ideas, principles, trade secrets or presentations of others without consent.

I will treat all my fellow compeers and all magicians with respect, encouraging fellowship, unity and cooperation.

OK, I agree with the no exposure clause and I agree that trade secrets should not be sold (assuming they are secrets to begin with). I also agree about no copying and no imitations. I still don't see how this prohibits reselling magic tricks. If a trick is published, it is no longer a secret. If you are really insistent that the trick should never be resold, your best bet is to a) not to sell it in the first place or b) make the buyer sign a contract saying he isn't going to resell.

 

[Haunter]

I don't think there is anything wrong with reselling it. I honestly don't think its all that different from being done with ANY dvd after you've watched it or any book after you've read it or any cd after you get sick of listening to it.

I see a problem with stores like gamestop that are everywhere, who may pay their distributor 40 for a new game and sell it for 60 then offer a customer 15 for a used copy of it and sell it for 55. Its terrible for the game industry and is down right evil. If there were something like that in magic I'd be just as opposed.

If we are just talking about you buying a product, use it and sell it to your buddy for half the price because you think its a fair deal for both of you then why not?

 

[worldwideme]

Your restaurant analogy is not a good one for what we are discussing. You can't resell a meal that you have eaten.

I'm a little puzzled about your argument about a person losing a sale based on something out of their control. Nobody is guaranteed to sell all the stuff they have manufactured (at least not in capitalist societies). From a legal standpoint, being deprived of potential sales is a hard thing to pin down.

Suppose I make it a hobby to stand outside a restaurant and discourage every passer by from eating there. Am I guilty of stealing? I would say no. I am depriving the restaurant of prospective customers, but I am not stealing anything.

Lets say I buy a car, use it for a year, then sell it. Does the car manufacturer consider this a lost sale? Maybe. Am I guilty of stealing because I sold my my car? No.

People lose sales for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes, the products are just bad. Sometimes, the advertising was misleading even if the product is not completely useless. Sometimes there are alternatives. There can be a thousand reasons why a potential sale was lost. A lost sale is not the same as theft and potential sales are hard to measure anyway.

You want to ensure that nobody resells magic? The only solution might be to make a product that is so good that very very few people will ever think of selling it after they buy it. Make sure it has the highest production values, is targeted towards the right consumers and delivers good value for money. Want a concrete example - look for used copies of the Zarrow Book by David Ben. You will not find a copy on ebay.




I fully realize that the secret and the right to use it are part of what you pay for. If you are concerned about the morals of using the knowledge from that trick which you have now sold, the only solution I can think of is to stop doing that trick. As for subtleties that creep in elsewhere, I don't have a solution. I have never had reason to worry about that.

with your restaurant example.... it would be like only buying one ticket to the buffet.. then selling the food you go and get to the person next to you at half price.