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An ethics question

Sep 1, 2007
109
0
Alright, well I've only skimmed through this topic, so excuse me if what I'm about to say has been said, but I dont think it has.

I think that when we purchase something, we are not buying the information, nor are we really buying the physical copy of it. We are buying the rights to perform and use the contents of the given product. Ownig the product gives us the rights to perform what is inside it, if we dont own it, we should not have those rights.

What this means, is that we shouldnt resell things that we are going to use; things that have furthered us in any way, because we have gained from the "secret" information contained inside, and we cannot forget that. However, if we were to get a DVD or book and say "I'm never going to use even the smallest piece of information from this," then I think reselling it is ok, because we havent really taken from it, but someone else may. This also allows for us to sell things that disappoint like some people were talking about before.

I also feel that this type of thinking changes how we think about piracy. If everyone were ethical enough, and honest enough, to pay for the things they used, piracy would actually benefit the magic community. It would mean that good creators, and people who come up with real life, useable material would be rewarded, and the bad magic released on the marketplace wouldnt make money simply because we would be able to see if it was useable and actually any good before even compansating the creator.

I think if everyone were ethical, this would actually be an ideal system.

Note, im talking about even using the smallest thing from any DVD; subtlety, joke, patter ideas, anything like that.

Just a few thoughts.

Cheers,
Lucas
 
Jul 13, 2009
1,372
0
31
Piracy is unethical, period. Moving on because that isn't the topic.

Reselling magic tricks is perfectly fine. We resell books second hand, which esentially is a copyrighted story like a copyrighted magic idea in a book. The author of the book gained the initial profit of the book. What the buyer does with the book is completely up to the owner. If he decides to sell the dvd at a severely discounted price, that is on them and is completely fine. Sure you can argue that you just took away a sale from the original creator of the book. But it is one, and I repeat, one sale that is not given to the creator. It doesn't hurt them, especially if it is a DVD. DVDs are a dime a dozen, almost literally. All you need is a great camera and good editting/directing to make an almost or more then 100 percent profit. It isn't really hurting anyone if ONE copy is sold at a discounted price.

Now if you want to take that further and say that pirating is the same thing, I will have to spank ya with a kayak paddle. Pirating is incredibly destructive because, instead of ONE dvd being sold discounted, the dvd is shared with thousands of people who can freely download the file. So in a sense it isn't just ONE dvd being sold at a discounted price, it is thousands of DVDs being given away free of charge. That is the main difference between the under the table (garage sales etc.) and pirating/file sharing.


To move away from DVDs and move into books. I bring back the point that A) it is only one on one sharing/buying selling. and B) People share and sell regular books in every industry.

Books are something that are supposed to be shared. It is the bases of how history and communication has stayed with our generation. Have school history text books factories gone out of business? Yes, but thats beside my point. History textbooks are going to be around for ever, even though you can go to the local library, browse the history section and find all the information found in a textbook and thensome. Same thing goes for magic or any industry for that matter.


To reiterate what I was trying to say, it is okay to resell magic.


Silver


PS

I didn't know they update the magician's oath. True, the magicians may see it as unethical practices. But the general population could care less.
 

S.G

Feb 9, 2010
664
1
Thank you for posting this thread Christopher. This is a topic that I have been pondering ever since I started magic.

I have seen this argument raised many times on these forums. However, I take the same approach as the book example stated before me. I think that when such things that are even related to secrets are sold, the consumer is buying knowing that the person selling already knows the secret.

As you said before, I really do not think that this problem can ever be solved. People will always have ... Secrets per say that they will publish. (This is talking about magic by the way). However, I think that the selling of the secrets in book or DVD form is only piracy if multiple copies are created and sold. When someone sells their DVD's they might be using that money to buy some more magic stuff like you said.

Here is an example.

Someone buys a book for $35 dollars then reads it and finishes it. Once they are done, they decide to sell the book again for $35. Using the money that they have just "made" in that sense, they buy some cards.

Technically, in a money sense, they have not gained any money.

A piracy situation would be someone buying a DVD for $50 and then making 100 copies of the DVD and then sell them for $50+.

I honestly don't know how to answer the question that you posted though. I do not believe it is ethical, yet I believe it is alright. So, I guess my answer just contradicts itself.

Maybe that just means I am unethical?

This is a very deep topic.
 
Apr 5, 2009
874
1
27
Illinois
Piracy is unethical, period. Moving on because that isn't the topic.

Reselling magic tricks is perfectly fine. We resell books second hand, which esentially is a copyrighted story like a copyrighted magic idea in a book. The author of the book gained the initial profit of the book. What the buyer does with the book is completely up to the owner. If he decides to sell the dvd at a severely discounted price, that is on them and is completely fine. Sure you can argue that you just took away a sale from the original creator of the book. But it is one, and I repeat, one sale that is not given to the creator. It doesn't hurt them, especially if it is a DVD. DVDs are a dime a dozen, almost literally. All you need is a great camera and good editting/directing to make an almost or more then 100 percent profit. It isn't really hurting anyone if ONE copy is sold at a discounted price.

Now if you want to take that further and say that pirating is the same thing, I will have to spank ya with a kayak paddle. Pirating is incredibly destructive because, instead of ONE dvd being sold discounted, the dvd is shared with thousands of people who can freely download the file. So in a sense it isn't just ONE dvd being sold at a discounted price, it is thousands of DVDs being given away free of charge. That is the main difference between the under the table (garage sales etc.) and pirating/file sharing.


To move away from DVDs and move into books. I bring back the point that A) it is only one on one sharing/buying selling. and B) People share and sell regular books in every industry.

Books are something that are supposed to be shared. It is the bases of how history and communication has stayed with our generation. Have school history text books factories gone out of business? Yes, but thats beside my point. History textbooks are going to be around for ever, even though you can go to the local library, browse the history section and find all the information found in a textbook and thensome. Same thing goes for magic or any industry for that matter.


To reiterate what I was trying to say, it is okay to resell magic.


Silver


PS

I didn't know they update the magician's oath. True, the magicians may see it as unethical practices. But the general population could care less.

but Keo, if you sell a book, then you can't enjoy the book anymore. you can't read it anymore. if i were to sell a magic DVD i would still be benefiting from the book. i still know how to do the trick.
 
Feb 16, 2009
217
0
South Bend, IN
but Keo, if you sell a book, then you can't enjoy the book anymore. you can't read it anymore. if i were to sell a magic DVD i would still be benefiting from the book. i still know how to do the trick.

I dont understand why some magicians are willing to flagellate themselves just because they happen to know something like the secret of a trick. OK, you know how the trick works even after you sell it. All you need to do to is not perform the trick after you sell it. The secret by itself is meaningless unless you perform the trick properly.

There are many examples of tricks that magicians can figure out by just looking at a performance once. Would you whip yourself if you happened to figure out something this way?

Also, things like subtleties and fine touches are more easily forgotten. If you sell a book or DVD, you are much more likely to forget the subtleties without regularly refreshing your memory.
 
Jul 13, 2009
1,372
0
31
but Keo, if you sell a book, then you can't enjoy the book anymore. you can't read it anymore. if i were to sell a magic DVD i would still be benefiting from the book. i still know how to do the trick.


I don't know if you do this but, If I read Hamlet, I still know the story (Secret). even though I sold my copy of the book to someone else whom I believe would benefit from reading it more then myself. However, since I no longer have the hardcopy of the book, I tend to summarize the events that take place in the story. Same thing about the finer details of X magic tricks. But I say again, one missed sale and two people who now know the same secret doesn't hurt or is an unethical practice.
 

S.G

Feb 9, 2010
664
1
This actually brings up another interesting take on this idea.

If I sell a book to someone, it is ok.

However, if I let someone see my 1-on-1, it is not.

Why?

Either way, the artist does not get any money. So why is the latter such a widely frowned upon action?

Just food for thought.
 
Sep 1, 2007
109
0
SG, i find it funny you draw the line like this. I would argue that most pirates make less money then people who resell stuff. Most piracy sites essentially share DVDs, programs and what not. They are giving the information away free of charge, therefore they still paid for it, and gain nothing by sharing it with others. However in reselling, you are recouping your money, and gaining the secret basically for free. You think this is fair to the creator?

Reselling something youre going to ever use is simply wrong. You paid for this information, and to get ir for what is essentially free by reselling it, you are shafting the creator.

Not to mention, Keo, you keep talking about reselling being a 1-1 i thing.. not really. Youre saying you cant resell something that you bought 2nd hand? I doubt that sir. And even if it is only 1-1, youre cutting profits for the creator IN HALF.

The argument that is often made for piracy is that many things illegally obtained would not have been purchased otherwise.. The same cannot be said for reselling. Most people who buy something 2nd hand really want it, and are just looking for the cheapest price. I would argue that creators probably lose more money off of reselling then they do off piracy even.

Note that I do not condone piracy, but reselling hurts the industry just as much.

Like I said, when used properly, both reselling and piracy can actually help the industry when used properly. They are both however, too abused to work properly.

Cheers,
Lucas
 

JD

Jul 5, 2009
638
1
Longview, Texas
No straight answer will come of this because there isn't one. *sigh* I think you should just leave it alone. There already a lot of posts disagreeing with one another. Clearly there are opposite views on the subject and they all make sense. You should just do what you think is right.
 
I would like someone that is currently marketing an effect to comment on this thread. I think that their opinion would be more valid than everyone elses. my 0.02$.

And I don't think that reselling hurts the industry. Piracy does, but not reselling. If a creator puts an effect on the market, I think it should be because he wants to share the idea with the community, not because he wants to make the big bucks (though this can easily happen). I believe that the price tag is so that the secret isn't fair-game for everyone, and only available to people who truly care about the effect and how to perform it. So the currency trading aspect of the magic business in my opinion is to make the person buying it appreciate the effect and gives them motivation to perfect it. "Well I spent 30$ on this I wouldn't want that to be a waste" . But hey, what the hell do I know?
 
Jan 13, 2008
1,137
0
Hmm...if I were to buy a book that explains how to build a super, awesome table (which you are free to sell after building), and I were to go around and re-sell that book...but, I already know how to build the table (thanks to my hypothetical-photographic memory), and I keep on building new tables and reselling them--would you consider that unethical?

I know I wouldn't. I didn't sign a contract saying that I would not keep on building/selling tables after re-selling the book. Same deal with every piece of magic I've bought. Not unethical in the slightest.

With that said, I still have all of the magic that I've bought...'cause I just don't have the desire to re-sell any of it. What am I going to make, like $10 a DVD, if that? Kind of a waste. I'd rather keep the DVDs and books as a reference; they're more valuable to me as reference material.
 
Feb 16, 2009
217
0
South Bend, IN
Not to mention, Keo, you keep talking about reselling being a 1-1 i thing.. not really. Youre saying you cant resell something that you bought 2nd hand? I doubt that sir. And even if it is only 1-1, youre cutting profits for the creator IN HALF.

You are simplifying things a bit here. Consider things from the point of view of a publisher. If a publisher prints 3000 copies of a book, he would price them in such a way that if all of them were sold, he would have a reasonable profit. How does he decide how many books to print and how to price them? He has to look at the demand for a book and decide accordingly.

If all these 3000 books are sold, the publisher has made whatever profit he planned for. He should not be bothered about people reselling the books they have because he has pocketed his profits. If the book turns out to be a real success and the demand actually increases, the publisher should reprint.

On the other hand, if the book turns out to be junk, even 3000 copies might not sell. Why should a bad product be guaranteed to make a profit? I would say that a publisher who is unable to sell books has to look at the market, look at his product and decide where things went wrong.

This would explain why there are no copies of the Zarrow book by David ben on Ebay. Whoever has the book is holding on to it. on the other hand, the Erdnase DVD set by Wesley james is such a turkey that even at half price, it isn't selling.

The argument that is often made for piracy is that many things illegally obtained would not have been purchased otherwise.. The same cannot be said for reselling. Most people who buy something 2nd hand really want it, and are just looking for the cheapest price. I would argue that creators probably lose more money off of reselling then they do off piracy even.

I'm not sure the creators lose more money due to reselling. Can you provide some evidence that this is the case?

Like I said, when used properly, both reselling and piracy can actually help the industry when used properly. They are both however, too abused to work properly.

So does reselling a) help the industry b) hurt the industry c) not matter in the long run?
 
Jul 13, 2009
1,372
0
31
This actually brings up another interesting take on this idea.

If I sell a book to someone, it is ok.

However, if I let someone see my 1-on-1, it is not.

Why?

Either way, the artist does not get any money. So why is the latter such a widely frowned upon action?

Just food for thought.

I do not really have an objection to that. Under these conditions: it is done in your own household ie someone comes over and views the 1-on-1, and does not involve any sharing sights on the internet in any way shape or form.
 
Jul 13, 2009
1,372
0
31
SG, i find it funny you draw the line like this. I would argue that most pirates make less money then people who resell stuff. Most piracy sites essentially share DVDs, programs and what not. They are giving the information away free of charge, therefore they still paid for it, and gain nothing by sharing it with others. However in reselling, you are recouping your money, and gaining the secret basically for free. You think this is fair to the creator?

Pirates are the kids who buy a dvd, get angry and decide to post it for thousands to view free of will. Even though the pirater doesn't gain anything, they do cause a significant amount of damage compared to an under the market sale. When you sell something at a garage sale, you never sell it for the same price that you got it as. That is the most ridiculous idea ever. I mean unless your product is a rare product most will not buy an effect second hand if they can find it new for the same price. You are not really gaining a profit from anyone, you are still in the red. The creator however had a set profit to begin with. If they mad X amount of copies, they'd of done the math to set the price of the product high enough to A) Pay off materials and other things and B) Get some spending money.

Reselling something youre going to ever use is simply wrong. You paid for this information, and to get ir for what is essentially free by reselling it, you are shafting the creator.

Okay, I just bought an amazon parot and no longer can take care of it. Should I ship it back to the pet shop in Brazil? Heck no, I am going to sell it to someone else at possibly lesser value then what I got it at. I am not shafting anyone by selling off junk that I do not need anymore.

Not to mention, Keo, you keep talking about reselling being a 1-1 i thing.. not really. Youre saying you cant resell something that you bought 2nd hand? I doubt that sir. And even if it is only 1-1, youre cutting profits for the creator IN HALF.

I am talking about the sale of product is one to one. If that person chooses to sell that product again, that sale is also one to one. The point I am making is that this has been going on WAY before the creation of internet and look at the magic community now. It is still here, obviously a little side sale doesn't hurt magic as a whole or creators for that matter.

Let me pitch you a scenario. I am at a local magic club and this new kid comes in who seems very very passionate about magic. I have a dvd that is gathering dust on my shelf. I look over the dvd and make sure it is still in good condition and figure that this new kid may benefit having this dvd. So I sell it to him and he views it and likes the magic taught on the DVD. The next meeting he returns and says, "Hey those are just the kind of magic I want to do, where can I find more." Then I direct him to sankey magic dot com and let him have a ball.

Second hand dealing isn't unethical and used wisely can actually get certain magicians exposure that they normally wouldn't get from just conventional advertisement. In a way, me selling a dvd had just helped a creator because this new kid just made a three hundred dollar purchase of all of magician X's material.

The argument that is often made for piracy is that many things illegally obtained would not have been purchased otherwise.. The same cannot be said for reselling. Most people who buy something 2nd hand really want it, and are just looking for the cheapest price. I would argue that creators probably lose more money off of reselling then they do off piracy even.

Well your argument comparing piracy and second hand selling is simply false. Let me go get stats from a torrent site.

Okay everyone knows about that movie Inception right? Well, it is only in movie theaters. I am a teenager who doesn't want to spend money on a potentially crappy movie, so I will wait until it comes out on rental or on DVD.(This is a scenario I paid my twenty dollars in total to see this movie and FOOOKING loved it) Well, now on this torrent site you can get a copy of Inception before it even leaves theaters. let me add up the amount of times it has been downloaded. 914 for the Xvid version, uuuuuhh 912 times for the camera recording, that totals to0, 1826 times. That means this single movie has been viewed a hell of a lot of times.

Now the average ticket movie now is like 7-8 bucks. 7 or 8 time 1826= 12,782 theoretical dollars that could have been made, but have been lost because of piracy. That is only from two files, TWO FILES there are at least 20 of these floating around!

Now if I obtained two copies legitimately on Blue-rey, two files on dvds, for 12 dollars each. I then sell these, because I do not own a blue-rey reader, for six dollars each and these people hold onto their copy for ever and ever. Even if they did sell it for say, half the price that they originally got it at, no one gains money, they just loose it.

Now I gave the company originally 24 dollars total. I then sold those two copies to someone else for half the price each. Yeah I just took back twelve dollars of my own money and sold some of MY legally owned stuff. I am out 12 dollars, the company still has my 24 and the people who now have my dvds are out 12 dollars themselves. This is a lot less destructive then pirating.

Note that I do not condone piracy, but reselling hurts the industry just as much.

No it doesn't, if anything it only helps creators as a form of passive advertisement.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jul 10, 2010
277
0
29
McAllen, TX
www.wix.com
Dear Everyone,


Have you ever burned a CD for a friend... Exactly. Get off the high horse. "Well I don't condone piracy lalalalala" Come on. You don't lend your friend a movie because you want them to see it? Do you let people listen to your IPOD because you have that new song they want to listen to? Ya, and I bet you never illegally downloaded something, right? If you reply with "I don't........" well, I don't care and I don't want to hear it. Everyone has done 1 of these things. Sell your DVD.

- Zac
 
Sep 1, 2007
340
1
Ontario, Canada
Dear Everyone,


Have you ever burned a CD for a friend... Exactly. Get off the high horse. "Well I don't condone piracy lalalalala" Come on. You don't lend your friend a movie because you want them to see it? Do you let people listen to your IPOD because you have that new song they want to listen to? Ya, and I bet you never illegally downloaded something, right? If you reply with "I don't........" well, I don't care and I don't want to hear it. Everyone has done 1 of these things. Sell your DVD.

- Zac

I agree with you. People are taking this ethics thing too far. No reselling is not wrong. You still paid the money for the DVD to the creator so they made money off of it. Your not taking the money back. Now if you went out and downloaded the dvd, burned it and sold it than yes that would be wrong. Everyone has done something that wasnt exactly ethical.

Im sure all of you buy all your music from itunes or your cd store right?
I dont
 
Nov 15, 2007
1,106
2
34
Raleigh, NC
Dear Everyone,


Have you ever burned a CD for a friend... Exactly. Get off the high horse. "Well I don't condone piracy lalalalala" Come on. You don't lend your friend a movie because you want them to see it? Do you let people listen to your IPOD because you have that new song they want to listen to? Ya, and I bet you never illegally downloaded something, right? If you reply with "I don't........" well, I don't care and I don't want to hear it. Everyone has done 1 of these things. Sell your DVD.

- Zac

While I agree...

Your logic is that of 'Everyone has done xxx so go ahead and do something similar!'
'Everyone has done marijuana, it's okay if you do it too...and everyone here is drinking under aged-it'll be okay if you take a few back...plenty of people are driving buzzed tonight-you'll be fine...'

:-/

I really could care less in terms of this debate (I could have not read past the first post!). The people making the DVD's and who are being ripped off haven't commented and even saying it's wrong wouldn't stop people from doing it.

Honestly, I just like pointing out flawed logic when I see it.
 
Jul 10, 2010
277
0
29
McAllen, TX
www.wix.com
While I agree...

Your logic is that of 'Everyone has done xxx so go ahead and do something similar!'
'Everyone has done marijuana, it's okay if you do it too...and everyone here is drinking under aged-it'll be okay if you take a few back...plenty of people are driving buzzed tonight-you'll be fine...'

:-/

I really could care less in terms of this debate (I could have not read past the first post!). The people making the DVD's and who are being ripped off haven't commented and even saying it's wrong wouldn't stop people from doing it.

Honestly, I just like pointing out flawed logic when I see it.

If you use the thought of weed, and drinking under age, you take it to a different level. I wouldn't do those things, but the other stuff, ya. I said do you do things like _______ (actually related to his question), where you said something completely different. I point out flawed logic every once in a while.
 
Nov 15, 2007
1,106
2
34
Raleigh, NC
If you use the thought of weed, and drinking under age, you take it to a different level. I wouldn't do those things, but the other stuff, ya. I said do you do things like _______ (actually related to his question), where you said something completely different. I point out flawed logic every once in a while.

Logic isn't different based on material, your ethics are, the logic is 'everybody does ____, so it's okay to do ____'

To say it only applies to this one thing is your own opinion, but logically I said the same thing, just with different examples.

Same logic : Different ethical discussion.
 
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