Are magicians too worried about who is doing this move?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by n:b, Dec 16, 2009.


Are there too many different/revisited/remasterd moves that accomplish the same thing

  1. Hell yes.

  2. No.

  3. Taco.

  1. ....just thinking about this and wanted to see what ya'll think.....

    Are magicians too worried about who does this change, and who does this move, and whats this shift variation, and whats this revisited sleight? Personally Im getting sick of stuff like the S.W.E shift, and how Chris says "This is like a golf swing.... that it will take a hundred tries to get it right. And you wont be able to get it down good untill like, the thousandth time. And when you get it right, that one out of a hundred times, it feels good...." I mean COME ON! Who really wants to invest money in a move like that. And why the hell are there so many different variations of the same basic move (getting a card to the top for example). Really? Theres shifts, passes, bluff passes, slips, controlls, and they all do the EXACT SAME THING! Yet we all seem to be sooo obsessed with who knows this shift, and who knows the variation of it, and who knows the remastered/ revisited method of that variation of that shift. And then, another 1-1 comes out teaching us YET ANOTHER shift, or pass, or bluff pass, or slip, or controll, or random useless move like the S.W.E shift. Are we becoming so obsessed with what moves we use/know that we really forget what the purpose of the moves are (ie controlling a card to the top.) Thus forgetting the overall purpose of controlling it to the top. So we can produce an amazing effect to entertain our audience. And really, thats the only reason we perform. To entertain, and amaze. Now, of course we all have our prefrences. In which I mean, we all take different roads to get to the same amazing prestige. And, yes, I do think diversity in moves is important for keeping up dextarity, and to keep your repetitive audiences on their toes. But come on. When is enough enough? For me, enough was the S.W.E Shift. And plus, ts just getting annoying how there are soooo many different Shifts, and Passes, and Bluff Passes, and Slips, and Cuts and whatever. I mean, come on.
  2. It just comes down to personal preference. Maybe one shift doesn't work with one persons style, while for someone else, it's perfect. If there were only one move for each sleight (palming, forcing, controlling, ect) magic would be pretty dang boring, even for the spectator, as everybody would eventually catch on. "Oh! I recognize that move! Last time he did those exact same movements, he showed the card had come to the top!" See?......
  3. I completly agree.

    I dunno. If you perform for the same three or four people over and over and over, then yeah. But if you perform in the street and busk and whatnot, then I dont think that would happen.
  4. Btw::

    I heart whoever voted taco! :D
  5. I'm talk'en family and friends. If you're just doing magic on the streets, you should have no problem with that.
  6. Oh okay cool. For family and fiend I agree. Espically my family... cause damn.
  7. I agree with your point, however you have to realize that not all magicians aim to perform. There are some that are move monkeys and aim only to impress other magicians, and see magic as a self contained hobby.

    To those magician's their love of magic comes from learning difficult moves and sleights. Also things like the S.W.E shift can suit certain situations, such has lifting the deck off a table.

    In the end, if it makes them happy, then do it.
  8. I like the points you made. Espically about the monkeys. I just personally couldn imagen not being able to entertain people with such an amazing talent. But to each his own.
  9. Just to add that you guys need to remember what the S.W.E shift was used for in those days, since magic was commonly done in a parlour venue (not close up) the S.W.E shift was better for this type of situations, where the classic pass may have flashed.
  10. Why are there so many controls? Well that's easy, it's because there is no "perfect" control.

    There's not such thing as the do all control; every control has a place, a purpose, a time in which it IS perfect for that situation. A Lennart Green style shuffle control is usefull when you want to give an impression that you dont care where the card is, while a pass is usefull for those times when the card is supposed to be fairly placed in the middle. Every move has its situation.

    Good magic is about making what is essentially an abnormal move (bluffs, passes, etc.) look normal. In order to do so, we must use the right move at the right time. Certain actions work for certain tricks, while the exact same action may not for another.

    While you're right in saying that the overall purpose is to amaze, I want to be the best I can be. I'm not going to settle for half-assing everything and just double undercutting all the time. I want to be the best, and in order to do so, i must mix things up.

    Also, another reasoning is to think of it like sports. If i only have one deke (move), people are going to catch on and I'm going to get caught every time I try it, no matter how good the move is. Same applies to magic. No matter how good your double undercut is, do it 20 times and have the card be at the top, it starts to get obivous.

    And as for the SWE Shift example, its a mvoe monkey thing. I get a great feeling when I smooth out and perfect a hard move. Even if I never use it, I know I've taken something upon myself and nailed it. You seem to be looking for external validation which is why this doesnt appeal to you. For me, this is a different type of victory; it's not a huge reaction, it's that feeling of accomplishment after a job well done. And I'M willing to spend money on that; myself feeling good.

    As for you talking about us worrying about who does what, I don't think this is a problem at all. I think it pushes people to learn harder moves and makes them better. It adds to the competition in magic and ends up with us all being cleaner, smoother magicians.

    Just a little bit for ya.

  11. Think of it as going to a restaurant. There is nothing wrong with adding additional items to a menu (you can have 100 ways to cook a chicken). I'm sure there will be only a few ways you like to eat your chicken. If you don't like what is being put on the menu, don't order it. It really just comes down to personal preference. There's nothing wrong with having a variety of methods to move a card to the top.
  12. I agree with Lucas, if we keep using the same sleight, the audience will know that it is 'the move' to control the card to the top. Imagine a 30 minute long card routine where the magician keeps repeating the double undercut over and over again. :eek: Boring!
  13. to tell the truth, i kinda agree with you in a give a lot of good points...

    but to answer your question....

    a lot comes into play for coming up with different ways to do the same thing....

    money: if its new and it works and seems logical, might as well get paid while doing it....right???

    recognition: some people just gotta be real logical reasons actually if you really listen to them...when it boils down to it...they just want to be different....

    style: some magicians feel that certain moves and sleights isn't what fit their character, some of that is true, some of that is because some sleights are more difficult than others and they just can't master it, so creating something they can do is always kool right??? its better than hearing a magician say..."hey this is hard as hell and i can't do it" God forbid that......when it boils down to it...its ego and difficulty......

    siutaional movements: some magicians feel that certain sleights are not a normal move or real life reaction to what should fit some effects....(ex: if you are doing "saw" why perform any other vanish than just putting the quarter into the mouth, doesn't sound right does it???).....another example is W:H's "SInful"...if you heard Criss Angel say on the MasterMind's DVD, he said that he first asked someone to hold and move a can around to see how it looked to perform that effect. He wanted to make it look so natural, that you wouldn't think any funny stuff went on...only thoughts that is to run inside the specs head is yeah thats also another reason for these variations....

    i do see what you are talking bout as evident with these color changes....when i see them i'm like "not again"....its to the point where i'm really not that amazed by it...its just another variation of the same thing over and over again....seriously, is someone keeps making a card come back to the top over and over and get to the point...where you sound like Ben Stien-ish...."wow"......its not fun or amazing anymore.....

    but on the backhand, i've given you reason's why.......

    hope that helps....
  14. I don't you were going to complain about actual effects, but in ulility moves..... really. I'm going to keep it simple you don't want repeat the same control over and over because people will think. Also it goes down personal liking.

    Also I vote for Taco.
  15. #15 visualartist, Dec 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2009
    Umm the audience isnt supposed to know that there is a sleight.
    And its alot more suspicious if the magician keeps putting the card in the deck hundreds of different ways.

    The spectators shouldnt be looking at the deck after the card is pushed in. They should be on you. Since YOU are the perfomer not the cards.

    Whats wrong with having the double undercut done over and over in a performance?
    Boring? that shouldnt even be close to being the spectacle or highlight of the magic

  16. i voted taco!!!!
  17. Agreed.

    Mixing up the way you have someone select a card, or return it to the deck will bring the same heat as using the same move over and over. If there is heat or suspicion, you either have a heckler, or need to work on your magic. Whether or not it's a technical problem or a performance problem will differ in how you work on it.

    I have a few different forces/controls. To get a selected card to the bottom I have a different method in a tabled setting than if everyone is standing. I have another method for me standing and people sitting.

    Forcing, depends on if I have a setup deck or was handed one, does my spectator have their hands full? If so a riffle-type force makes sense, there is justification, or if they're on the other side of the group. If someone is right beside me then it makes sense for them to pick one out of a's all situational.

    Just remember that your presentation and interaction must correlate with your moves, and everything must be motivated and justified. If everything is done properly everyone will have a good time and nobody will be worrying about that little cut thing you do after every selection. They won't even notice you moving your hands.
  18. Definitely. I did a little improvised ambitious card routine the other day which was basically three top changes in a row, followed by a face-up riffle-pass. Magic isn't created by moves, it's about the presentation. Fair enough, a good repertoire of moves will expand the types of effect you can perform and allow you to deal with more performance situations, but if I'd done a centre-clip shift, followed by a windmill move, followed by a one-hand shift, the audience would still remember that I'd placed a card in the middle and it jumped up to the top.

    Having said that, there's nothing wrong with move-monkery (monkeyism?). I get pleasure from mastering tough moves and showing them off to other magicians. For me, it's part of the joy of this art and craft.

  19. I most definitly agree with your points. I just hate when people are move monkeys and dont actually take it to the streets to USE the moves for their intended puropse. And of course different moves work for different situations so knowing a varity of moves is important.... but only if you actually put the moves to work. Just my opinion.
  20. Do you also hate it when sculptors also work on painting in oils, or when crime fiction authors write a biography...or when coin workers practice card sleights? If you do, then fair enough, I'd love to see why you feel that way. If not, then please explain why you hate people loving their craft enough to work on things hat don't directly benefit their actual work.

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