Back to frontpalm question

Discussion in 'Cardistry & Flourishing Forum' started by Juvator, Sep 9, 2017.

  1. Hi guys,

    I'm new just made an acc because it's time.. I've always got questions and nowhere to ask them.

    So here's something I came across when practicing. The first trick I learned was a vanish and production. After a few hours I could do it and the next days it went very smoothly and I was able to keep the edges from showing even if you looked with your nose right on it. And after a week or so I could do it with both hands simultaneously, but left is still a bit slower though. Maybe you are thinking yeah right some guy just practicing a few days claiming things but I got a knack for this kinda thing and wish I started practicing sooner (31 years old now. Anyways that's besides the point.

    But now I wanna learn the back to frontpalm so I found this video "first I had to figure out how it was even called" Besides it being bad quality and there's prolly better videos maybe since I didn't look further yet. But that's not important either. In this video at least I can see the edges so well.. and I think is this just sloppy or bad or is the only way to perform a back to front with such sloppy edges because otherwise you would lose the grip? Because if I make the edges disappear completely which I kinda automatically do now then I can still sometimes lose the grip but at the front you won't be able to see anything.

    And I think dan & dave are pretty good right? I see their names everywhere anyways. This is the first video I watched from them and that's why I'm asking this question.

    But I think the question about the edges is a valid one regardless of which video or performer showed it right?
    How do you guys do that? Are your edges clean or do you have no choice but to do it like he shows? Because it's important for me to know if I need to unlearn or relearn some things.
  2. Oh hey, look at that, copyright infringement.

    So, when you're doing this kind of thing you need to remember that it's intended for stage/parlor. Not close up. This isn't something that was ever intended to be done with someone two feet in front of you. There's nothing stopping you developing the skill to make it invisible at that distance, of course, but a lot of the teaching is going to be done from the assumption that there's some space between the performer and the audience. That's why small bits of flashing with the edges doesn't really matter. Also, having that bit of an edge makes certain moves easier.

    It really comes down to you. What are your goals? There's guys like Chad Long who can do this stuff from a few feet away and make it look incredible. It's just a matter of practicing.

    Also - you seem to be learning from YouTube. Just so you know, if you want to be part of the magic world, you're going to have to get comfortable with the idea of paying for instructions. Otherwise you're perpetuating a serious problem of piracy in the creative world and that will not help your reputation at all.
  3. Hi sorry I didn't think about it like that. You are completely right.
    Unfortunately I don't have the money to spend on buying tricks the cards alone are already an expense for me. I'm chronically ill and all my finances go to that and the card tricks distract me from this pain.
    What about if another magician teaches it to me? one that's done it for 50 years+ ? it's a family friend but I haven't spoken to this person in over 15 years. But I could ask this person to teach me?

    And yeah it does depend on how far away the spectator is indeed. I'm my only spectator usually so if I saw it then it wasn't hidden.
    But when trying to do this frontpalm thing I can already notice I don't have enough edges then.

    But erm now that I think about it I would not even be allowed to ask questions about tricks then on forums ? Because clearly I didn't pay for it and showed that to everyone now :( Or how does this work then? Everyone here works on the assumption that everyone pays for their tricks ? I didn't do it on purpose. And I'm not learning magic tricks from the internet, just the skills around it but I dunno if that makes a difference. I haven't learned anything yet that could have spoiled it for anyone, everyone knows where the card is in a vanish trick :p

    Also my goal is just to see how far I can get for now I think :p I'm not a great performer, maybe I can become it, not sure if i'm interested in it.
  4. -edit- I can't edit my post anymore unfortunately I would prefer not to double post.
    But to clarify I know for a fact he did pay for the tricks in a time when there wasn't internet, and I think it was probably even more expensive on VHS.

    And also when I said " I didn't do it on purpose" I mean I didn't think about pirating, it's become very normal to learn through YouTube so I didn't see the harm yet.
  5. Learning from another magician is a time honored tradition. For things like manipulation, which is what you're doing (card manipulation), learning from another magician used to be the way it was done. Now there are more options, such as Jeff McBride, Dan & Dave, Dan Sperry, etc. Jeff McBride's "Card Manipulation" series is considered the standard learning material from what I've gathered. Admittedly, this is an area of magic I'm not super interested in.

    I do know you can find a fair amount of information on card manipulation from legal free sources which are in the public domain. Google will be your friend there. I know there's a section on the front palm to back palm in Expert At The Card Table for example.

    Thinking on this more, you're actually at an interesting spot, intellectual property-wise. The problem with the video above (which I have already reported to Dan & Dave) is that it's a direct copy of a product that is sold. That's copyright infringement. However, there's probably videos around that teach the skills behind that video that are not copyright infringement (As long as they're not copying an existing act or or using video from a marketed product). The quality of those videos is likely to be quite poor, unfortunately, as there's very few people who are actually good at this who are willing to give away the training for free. This is how they make their living, after all.

    Overall - good luck, and keep at it. You've already got a firm basis if you're diligent enough to sit before a mirror and practice just that one sleight. Almost all of card manipulation is basically based around the front and back palm used in various creative ways.
  6. Yeah I've been thinking about contacting him for a while but the last time I saw him he made a sigaret disappear in a towel when I was like 10 :p But it does seem a waste to not try and take this opportunity.
    I will have a look at Jeff McBride then for sure! For me this is of the most interest haha since I've always been interested is hand dexterity tricks.

    I'm still very much a book person, I've got more books than I can store and I will definitely order and have a look at this book but it seems much harder to learn from a book than it does from a video.

    Yeah I did notice that it wasn't originally uploaded by Dan & Dave, so I see what you mean now.
    I think Youtube has opened up a lot of avenues though to make a living from Cardistry now, than they would just doing performances for some people at least. And making more people interested in it can't be bad either right. In the end population-wise it's probably more popular than ever.

    Thanks and well among the other things like Revolution cut - Charlier cut and a basic spring the Vanishing trick is the one I've practiced the most and its definitely my favorite thing to do to keep my hands busy :p I've already done it thousands and thousands of times in a pretty short time :p Actually need to force myself to give my hands some rest. Adding the frontpalm motion too is going to make it even more fun to do.
  7. Well I've bought two books, the expert at the table and The Royal road to Card Magic.

    And as I thought it's just impossible to learn from text, I can't do it.
    I still haven't figured out what he even means with the basic grip for the blind shuffle as he explains it in his book.
    Read it over and over and over and I still had only half a clue of what he meant.

    So I decided to watch 1 video on the blind shuffle.. and in 10 seconds I saw what grip he meant.. it couldn't be more basic.
    What I couldn't learn in hours of rereading the damned intro and trying to figure out what he meant I learned in 10 seconds from a video or what I could have learned in 10 seconds from someone showing it to me.

    This book you recommended is really really hard and it's just not gonna work for a beginner card magician who doesn't even know he was describing the most basic way to hold cards ever. Learning all the positioning for each finger on both hands when it's being described in this way is extremely confusing and I just never know for sure if I'm doing it right, so on top of spending hours learning nothing I am also most likely learning it wrong. So I dunno what to do here besides go back to watching videos because there's no point for me to learn it wrong and practice a wrong technique for hours only to figure that's it's not even possible like this. I mean sure that is a learning experience too but since I'm so late starting with this craft I don't have time to waste :p

    After watching a video about the blind shuffle and then reading the book again... now That was helpful because now what he wrote actually made sense to me now.
    I'm glad I bought the book though because it's fun to read and its interesting to learn more background and see how such a skilled person has developed all this. So I definitely didn't go wrong buying this, but if I want to learn anything before I go grey I will need visual help too.
  8. I'm assuming you are referring to The Expert at the Card Table?

    It is not a book for beginners. It is more so a book of theory, at least that's what a lot of people use it for. Most of the stuff in there is really hard to read and understand, and you will rarely use a ton of it (unless you do gambling demonstrations). It is not a book you should start with if you are a beginner.

    The Royal Road is where you should start. It is still a little hard to read, because of the words they used 70 years ago, but once you get how to read it, you will really get a lot out of it.
  9. Yeah indeed I meant The Expert at the Card Table, and indeed it's a lot of gambling stuff which is not very relevant anymore. Though it's interesting to learn those skills regardless though. But I will start in the Royal Road first then, I was already considering this too. And see how that goes.
  10. Go ahead and read through a chapter at a time. If you don't understand something, try reading through it again, with a deck this time. If you have ay questions, feel free to let me know!

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